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mjramirez
New MemberPosts: 4 New Member
Rifle and Optics education
mjramirez
New MemberPosts: 4 New Member
i'm looking to buy a new rifle and scope but with escalating to a "new car" from my beater, i want to ensure i know what im buying and be able to make educated decisions. does anyone know of good reading material or material in general where one might learn the basics of rifle manufacture, gunsmithing and optics pairing. i like to think im intelligent enough to understand what im reading but an example of why i want to learn is, with rifling, at what point is too many twists so that it destabilizes a round? stuff like that. all help and recs are greatly appreciated.
happy memorial day
happy memorial day
Replies
I, and many others here, will be more than happy to share our knowledge, arguing with one another as we do that, but the first thing that you should tell us is; what is your goal? In other words, what do you want to do with the rifle?
There are any number of sites where you could learn about manufacturing of rifles. To me the most critical component of the rifle is the barrel, so you could visit barrel manufacturer sites and read about their process.
Here's a good place to start:
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making.htm
So, answer the question above and then start asking questions.
...if there was such a thing as a "perfect rifle", a lot of us wouldn't own a 1/2 doz.+ different rifles, but to narrow the opinions of rifle/ cartridge/ scope combinations most suitable, the "intended use" is important...
..."twist" is an offshoot of the Long Range Hunting/ Sniper/ Match culture where the longer/ heavy for caliber extreme ballistic coefficient bullets that require a faster spin are used. Most manufacturers have been doing this long enough they don't "unsuitable" twist ratios, but for the sake of argument the standard 1:14 twist of the .223 won't stabilize bullets over 60grs., the 1:8 "Match" twist can actually create rotation speeds that will cause light varmint bullet to disinegrate upon exiting the barrel, an older 6mm Rem. might have too slow of "twist" to stabilize the heavier .243 bullets, some manufacturers use different "standard twist rates", you might find a 7mm Rem. Mag. w/ a 1:10 or 1:9.5 depending on the manufacturer, when in doubt go w/ the higher twist rate, or some of the "rediscovered" rounds, like the .35 Whelen that were designed around the data powders & bullets of the time, w/ the powders/ bullets available require considerably faster "twists". But here again, unless you are looking @ a specific cartridge/ rifle/ use, "don't sweat it"...
...once again, the "intended use" will get you lots of opinions, most of them based on personal observations, knowledge, & even facts that you can sort & sift thru to find something that will best fit your needs & budget...
Welcome aboard.
I wouldn't worry so much about bullets getting "Destabilized" if you buy any modern rifle from Ruger/Savage/Remington/others. Just follow the instructions with recommended bullet weights. Almost all modern rifles will fire commonly available ammunition in the caliber it is made in without issues.
Some exceptions apply, like with the .223/5.56 caliber, but the salesman in a Local Gun Shop (LGS) Big Box store can usually help you with ammo selection based on rifling twists. In other words, the work has pretty much been done for you. If you get into reloading you will read and learn more about rifling and twist rates to select the components best suited for your guns.
I'm not trying to oversimplify things here, but basically just read up on firearms from reloading manuals/gun magazines/forums like this and talk with gun folks at the LGS/Range and your knowledge will grow as your interest progresses.
Good luck.
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
If your interest is in target shooting, there are an entire different group of rifles dedicated to that facet of the shooting sports that have virtually no other practical use. They're in exotic chamberings and require anal-retentive reloading procedures, and/or they have trigger pulls measured in ounces that would make them dangerous for field use. Most of them need a crew of weightlifters or a wheeled carriage just to get the rifle to the firing line. Making tiny groups of holes in a piece of paper over in the next telephone area code seems to be about as exciting as watching paint dry or grass grow, but some folks like it!
Give us an idea of your intended use, and I'm sure someone here can make some intelligent suggestions to help you get started down the right path. Welcome to the zoo!
Jerry
Welcome aboard.
pegasus- thanks for the site to start and yeah im more than ignorant on this subject.
freezer- thanks for the book as a starting point. ill head over to amazon in a moment
to all- thanks again and please keep the knowledge coming
A .223 is not big enough or even legal to hunt deer with. There will be a lot of oppinions here as to cartridges but for a lot of reasons, my choices are .243 Win, .270 Win, and .30-06 Springfield. Again, a lot of oppinions will be heard, but get a good, solid platform with a good reputation; Remington 700.
Assuming hunting is the goal. If range-runway is the goal, then go with the AR.
"Molon Labe"..... "Come and take them!"
When you are comfortable with the .22 you can move on to a centerfire rifle. At first I would get something that would double for hunting and target shooting. Remington, Savage (Stevens), Ruger, and a few more make some great bolt guns like this. Then practice at 50 then 100 yards til you can consistently shoot into a sub 2 inch group or tighter. Remember, if you outgrow a firearm, if you have taken good care of it, you can most likely get most of your money back out of it. When you're proficient with the .22, then you can graduate up to something you feel is more appropriate for what you want to do. However myself, I would never get rid of the .22 except to get another one you like better.
Ammo for a .22 Rimfire is so cheap in comparison with anything else, you can shoot for ever for a couple hundred dollars worth. And as I said above, when you graduate up to centerfire, don't get rid of your .22. Keep it for practice and staying sharp.
Myself, I'm mainly a hunter who enjoys shooting for groups and occasionally competing in my gun club's monthly shoots. I shoot in rimfire competition, shotgun (Trap-Skeet), and informal center fire rifle bench rest meets. But mainly I love hunting. I'm currently on a hog killing spree, but will hunt deer at the drop of a hat when I get an opportunity.
I have several different brands of rifles, mostly bolt action. I have one lever gun, one semi auto .22, and I have a couple of Semi Auto Mil Surps, but everything else is bolt. I have Remington, Wnchester, Ruger, Howa, and Savage products. I have had great luck with all of them. I really like the Remington 700 action, and have shot them for years. I love Winchester Model 70s also. I have one Howa action that I had made into a custom rifle that is very smooth and accurate. However, of late I have begun a love affair with Stevens-Savage bolt guns. I have a Stevens Mod. 200 in .223 Rem. and I have a Savage Model 110 in 7 mm Rem. Mag. They are accurate, functional, not heavy and handle well and that's all I ask of a hunting rifle. I don't need a fancy piece of furniture to hunt with. I have some, but for me they are more of a novelty than an essential.
I hope this helps and doesn't confuse you. It's just a few ideas for food for thought. Good luck and hang around.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Careful there Capn...You are stating an opinion as fact -a bad habit when this board is populated by folks from all over the country.
In the first place the legality of using a .223 for deer is totally dependent on where you live.... laws vary from state to state....
In the second place it has been proven...right here on this board, many times over that the .223 is a perfectly adequate round for deer...bullet selection is the key...and will take deer cleanly an humanely.
I agree 100% Jayhawker. In the old days a .22 CF was immediately condemned by many sportsmen and gun writers. But nowdays with better bullets and more accurate firearms the .22 Centerfires are making a strong showing on small and medium game. Even larger deer will readily fall to them. It's all about bullet construction and shot placement.
Actually, I've been using the .223 on deer for over 20 years. I always used Speer 70 grain bullets. They penetrate well and hold together. The reason they can be used in looser twist barrels is they are a semi Spitzer and stabilize well in 1-12 and 1-14 twist rifles. They don't have the BC for a real long range shot as they will lose too much velocity at ranges over 300 yards, but for the deer hunting most people do, a 300 yard shot is well on the long side.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
The point of this thread was making suggestions to a neophyte. And FWIW, someone who clearly doesn't reload.
"Molon Labe"..... "Come and take them!"
If you're leaning towards the AR-10, then the natural choice would be the .308 Winchester. Good deer round.
As for optics, personally I wouldn't go larger than a 6x, but that's me. I don't like to overpower the rifle and tend to take shots that might be marginal. It keeps me a bit more honest with myself.
Winston Churchill
Jerry
Those laws/regs were made many, many, years ago and based on the "general consensus" at the time - those regulations fail to take into consideration the leaps forward in bullet design and are being challenged all over the country...
However, for the OP, I would recommend a 6mm of some stripe as a starting point. In an AR15 platform, the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel will fill the bill nicely without stepping up to an AR10 platform and will comply with laws in states that still have outdated, benighted caliber restrictions in place.
Stand hunting, still hunting, spot-n-stalk, etc.?
Also, what other types of shooting do you want to do with this rifle?
Nothing wrong with the AR platform, but a bolt rifle would be simpler and cheaper depending on the route you go.
AS far as optics, what kind of distances do you want to shoot?
Any varmint shooting/hunting in your future?
"The Un-Tactical"
Putting too much faith in scientific 'consensus' is what got us into all this environmental nonsense that our grandchildren will still be trying to pay off when they are our age.
I'll agree that there are more sensible choices than .223 for whitetails, but I have probably seen about as many humane kills with .223 (usually at less than 100 yards), as with any other chambering, in my part of the world. Whitetail deer are not very hard to kill, and a well placed bullet from any center fire rifle that I can think of will work approximately as well as the .30-06 that I prefer. Most of the adults I know who use them are good hunters who wait for neck shots that they know they can make, but I have also witnessed my (then) 7 yo grandson shoot two deer with heart-lung shots, with the resulting damage done being much more devastating than the ones I shot with 165 grain .30-06.
I wouldn't hesitate to hunt Texas whitetails with my AR, if I could only own one rifle, and I have never made an inhumane kill, and never intend to.
If you want a bolt action to have something different...well, there are not very many options that make a BAD choice. What is your price range? Where in the country will you be hunting? Location makes a huge difference, shooting in the thick stuff in PA for example, you'd do well with a short barreled, light rifle that points quick for fast shots. But if you are sitting over bean fields with more open country like in Kansas or Nebraska or something, then a bit longer barrel chambered in something with a bit more reach might be up your alley.
As a beginner, I'd stay away from any magnums, and anything with heavier recoil. Too much gun, is a real good way to develop some very bad habits and ruin your experience for a lifetime. At the same token, using something on the very small/light end of the caliber range is really more of the world of experienced shooters who are extremely confident in their shooting and territory.
Saying that, in a bolt action, again, something based on the 308 would be a good choice, especially the 7mm-08 and 308 Win. LOTS of factory ammo choices that aren't hard to find nor expensive. Some of the 30-06 based offerings would suit you well too, like the 25-06 or 270 Win.
And of course, spend money for GOOD scopes! The rifle is just a simple tool doing a simple job. You pull the trigger, firing pin hits the primer, ignition happens, gas propels a projectile at your target. Thousands of ways of doing so. A scope on the other hand, can make or break your rig. Spending 800$ on a rifle then putting a 60$ Tasco scope on it is like buying a Ferrari and putting the cheapest Sav-O-Mat pump gas you can find in the tank because you can't afford the premium it needs. My rule of thumb, and it is just my honest opinion...try to spend at least as much on the scope as you do on the rifle, or more. There ARE exceptions to this rule, there are some dang fined scopes out there for very good deals. Normally I'd steer people away from that option until they're a bit more experienced, but at the same time, you've come to the right place to get advice. No one here will steer you wrong on any points what so ever.
As already stated, the .223 is not legal for deer in many areas. It's awesome on rodents, acceptable for coyotes, and if you're running a faster twist barrel with a heavy bullet and placing it with care, yeah, deer have been killed with it, but few, if any people consider it the optimum tool for the job.
The thing to keep in mind about the AR-15 - it was designed to be a five-pound rifle firing an intermediate cartridge that was controllable on full auto. The short way to describe an "intermediate cartridge" is you start with a real rifle round and cut both the bullet and cartridge case in half. Even if you opt for an AR-15-compatible cartridge other than the .223, you are still limited by the length of the magazine well as to how much of a cartridge you can stick in there. You can put a screaming 20 caliber in it (.204 Ruger), you can stick a moderately fast .22 in it (.223), you can put some middling velocity bullets in the range of 6 to 6.8mm's in it, and you can load some pokey bullets of larger size. Generally speaking, the short magazine can give you medium reach, or punch, but not both. It's an acceptable short range battle implement. It's not really suited to big game.
There is the AR-10 platform based around the .308 cartridge and it's family of similarly-sized offshoots. With the larger rounds in this family (7mm-08, .308, .358 Win), you have all you'll ever need for deer, and will be decently equipped for elk at reasonable distances of a couple hundred yards. Downside to the AR-10 as a hunting gun is they generally are starting to get considerably heavier than the AR-15.
The plus to the .308 family is that the actions are slightly shorter and lighter than those of the next step up (the .30-06 family). With a bolt action variant, there's about an inch less distance needed to run the bolt back and forth to eject and chamber rounds. The downside - like the .223 - is that your stuck with a short cartridge and magazine length designed around military realities rather than hunting ones.
If all you're ever going to hunt is deer, pig, black bear, the .308 has the advantage of cheap and widely available surplus ammo. If you simply don't know what you're going to be hunting, the .30-06 with it's longer case, larger boiler room, and ability to throw the same or larger bullet faster is NEVER a mistake.
As to optics, the newbie mistake is to put too much magnification on the gun. Keep in mind that more magnification = smaller field of view = harder time finding your target. A variable power scope with a low end of 2 to 4.5x and a top end of no more than 14x is all you'll ever need for big game applications. Also keep in mind that while a large objective lens of 50mm or larger may give you another 5-10 minutes of usable shooting light, you typically have to mount it higher off the gun, which can make getting your eye correctly behind it in a hurry somewhat problematic.
My own advice to the new hunter - a.30-06 Remington 700, made of stainless steel, with a synthetic stock, scoped with a 3.5-10x40mm Leupold, mounted on low rings, and loaded with ammo carefully chosen to the task, will solve ANY hunting chore in the lower 48, and it wouldn't suck in Alaska, either.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
i live in az but with the boys scattered all throughout the country ive got some trips to take. i'll be in tennessee for a hunt ive been invited on so as far as specifics go E.B. i prefer i have the flexibility to go with the wind. ill definitely be sticking around for the shop talk gents.
ill follow the leads ive been given and when i get back to the states in 12 days and a breakfast ill be sure to make friends at the range again and the gun store.
We let the kids shoot those, because they are so plentiful we have to figure out some way to cull them.
The slightly more experienced adults will often wait till the second day of the season to shoot a bigger one. Some of us even get lucky and shoot one that our heroes, the indomitable Rocky Mountain stalker, might not turn up his nose at...especially when faced, yet again, with the prospect of taking nothing home but a few pictures of the beautiful scenery. :tooth:
:roll2:
A 30 cal is flexible as well-just preference for me, since I like the above calibers better for their distance bullet selections.
Some gun stores can be a wealth of good information, while others can be the opposite or somewhere in between.
If you are looking at coues deer the distances can be far at times.
Locally find a person who has been successful on a regular basis and has good shooting skills in the field.
I am assuming factory.
If you are fixed on the AR platform-Check state regs for caliber and Mag restrictions, go with an AR-15 in something like the 6.5 Grendal or the 6.8 SPC.
If looking at a 6mm contact Robert Whitley http://www.6mmar.com/
The AR-10 platform will give you more flexibility for bigger game and distance, but you also add cost and weight. 243 Win, 260 Rem, 7-08, and 308 (I like 260 best followed by the 7-08 then 308) If leaning toward bigger game (elk class) 7-08 & 308.
With the 308 Win the Hornady TAP ammo using the 168 A-Max works real good.
"The Un-Tactical"
Get a 30-06 bolt rifle. You said that you would be "throughout the country". Well, the 06 will not be to small (IE legal caliber), more than adequate for any deer on the planet, a bolt rifle is allowed everywhere, and you can buy a box of ammo that will work in it where ever they sell ammo.
Glass, a 3x9 Nikon or Leupold can be had for a fair price and will cover everything. Likley you will end up letting it sit on 4x after a while and be good.
This is all sound advice. I have several 4-12X scopes on my rifles, a couple 4.5-14s and a couple 6-18s along with a half dozen 3-9x40s and a couple of straight powers. I've been hog hunting a good bit lately and the other day I noticed that most of the time when I'm anticipating shots <100 yards, I have the scope set at 4x or as low as it will go. I like the wide field of view a lower setting provides. And it does let in more light too. Don't get me wrong. I believe there's a definitely a time and place for cranking the setting up to 12-14 range, but not for any shot under 100 yards.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
and for the record, you guys have reinforced my favor toward the 6.5 but ive serious considering to do with the info presented on ar-10s and bolt actions. i have a rim fire bolt action but its not something id rely on when all i get is one shot. then again, with the bolt actions in terms of added cost and weight, maybe ill extend the firearms cabinet by two. we'll see!
thanks all.
There is nothing wrong with a gun than can carry more than one round at a time, but more ammo, will not increase your odds of tagged deer.
If that first shot isn't good, many multiple rounds aren't going to help you any.
This is another reason why a bolt-action rifle that can hold 3-4 rounds is more than sufficient. Sometimes an animal is hit hard and will need a finisher. A good bolt action can do that easily as can someone who is proficient with a single-shot. I do not hunt dangerous game.
Marksmanship is a skill that must be developed and it cannot be bought or enhanced by a semi-auto weapon.
"The Un-Tactical"