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375 H&H

scarfacescarface MemberPosts: 263 Member
My brother is looking for a 375 H&H for larger North American and African game. What rifles would you all recommend? Thanks in advance. My brother did not give me a price range yet.
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Replies

  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,871 Senior Member
    CZ550 or Winchester Mod 70. Those would be the only 2 I'd look at. There is also the Ruger RSM but they are freakin TANKS, very large and bulky. In 458 Lott or the 416 Rigby, as they are also chambered in sure, but too much gun for the 375. The CZ is a few hundred cheaper, but sometimes they need just a smidgen of work to smooth things out so it is 100% reliable (not personal experience, just reading from an African hunting forum). Although from Ruger, I'd also take a look at the 375 Ruger, African or Alaskan, both are really solid guns and the 375 Ruger is no slouch at all. Probably come in even cheaper then the CZ, although finding ammo MIGHT be a problem in some places....I've heard it can be found in Jo-burg RSA and Windhoek Namibia, and at most of the larger stores in AK in the major cities. The Ruger has some advantages....it is MUCH lighter then either the M70 or CZ550, much more compact, and the round is actually faster then the H&H, ammo isn't horribly expensive either, most of it is on par with H&H and with some brands much cheaper then H&H (Norma PH line for example). But the H&H has advantages too, more options for guns (especially if he looks online at gunbroker for a used one, for example) many, many more options for factory ammo in all the bullet weights, and better chance of finding ammo should the worst happen and it gets lost in transit. Nearly any camp in Africa is going to have some random H&H laying around, but never know how much.

    If he hasn't looked yet, another great option would be the 9.3x62mm Mauser. It is more or less the 375's equal, just a tag bit less energy, and yes it is legal in several African countries for DG. Ammo can be had in Africa as much as the 375, even more in German and Dutch former colonies. Probably find some in Alaska too. Advantages here - again much slimmer and lighter rifles, 4 or 5 rounds +1 in the hole vs 3+1 for the Ruger or H&H, much perceived less recoil. Disadvantages - not legal in ALL countries for DG, ammo can get a bit pricey, bullets are SLIGHTLY smaller and lighter then the 375. The 9.3 is available from Ruger in the Hawkeye African, and in several models from CZ.
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    CZ-550 - NO QUESTION AT ALL! I have two 550's - one .30-06 and one .416 Rigby. Workmanship, function, and accuracy - all excellent! Very old school - no plastic, no aluminum, no castings

    I am currently starting construction on a .375 H&H (probably destined to be an Ackley Improved version) on a butchered-by-prior-owner M1917 Enfield. I like the screw-thread style locking lugs and the speed of the cock-on-close feature. I have my resident smith assisting me with the construction, but if you want a total beast of an action, A-Square builds on 1917's as well.

    Initially, I was SORELY tempted to build my rifle in the .375 Ruger round, and also looked at the .375 RUM, but concluded that the .375 H&H ammo is EVERYWHERE that large and dangerous game can be found. The Ruger and Remington are somewhat limited in production/availabilty, so I decided that going with the Ackley Improved version would allow me to shoot unmodified .375H&H ammo if that was all that was available, giving me more fire-formed Ackley brass in the process.

    I'm a tinkering wildcatter who likes Ackley's cartridges, but I there's still sense in leaving the original chambering alone for simplicity. Fact is, the round has been doing the job on All Creatures Great and Small for a hundred years - I'm not 100% sure I want the extra headache myself on this one.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,197 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    CZ-550 - NO QUESTION AT ALL! I have two 550's - one .30-06 and one .416 Rigby. Workmanship, function, and accuracy - all excellent! Very old school - no plastic, no aluminum, no castings
    <snip>
    Fact is, the round has been doing the job on All Creatures Great and Small for a hundred years - I'm not 100% sure I want the extra headache myself on this one.
    Hard to argue with the voice of experience when it comes to the rifle. :up:

    And hard to argue with history about the cartridge :up:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,403 Senior Member
    Buying new the CZ. Used, I wouldn't turn down a A-bolt..... Saw one at Gander awhile back, but it was $$$ as GM is prone to be....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • Wheelsman56Wheelsman56 Member Posts: 225 Member
    CZ 550 hands down. Amazing gun, incredibly well made, and very accurate. Controlled round feed for those big nasty African dangerous game. Done deal.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    slightly off topic... If you are taking your gun to Africa, and you have 50 perfectly tested handloaded rounds, how do you get them there? Can the ammo go in the cargo hold separate from the gun? And what are the "import" requirements when you land in Jo'Burg?

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    slightly off topic... If you are taking your gun to Africa, and you have 50 perfectly tested handloaded rounds, how do you get them there? Can the ammo go in the cargo hold separate from the gun? And what are the "import" requirements when you land in Jo'Burg?

    D

    That's the question for your safari company's booking agent, because due to ever-changing politics of all the different countries, that answer might vary a lot. But it's a good reason for taking at least one gun that can be made to function with "common" ammo. The .458 Lott can shoot .458 Win Mag, and the .375 Weatherby, .375 H&H Ackley, and a host of other wildcats can safely fire the unmodified .375H&H. If the airline, customs, or UPS loses your ammo, the clever hunter will have had his PH lay in a stash of something that will work well in advance of the trip.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • scarfacescarface Member Posts: 263 Member
    Thanks for all of the info guys! My brother was at the LGS today and looked at the CZ and Ruger. The Ruger was in .375 Ruger and the CZ was .375 H&H. He is torn on the decision and really digs both rifles. I am just anxious to see what he buys so I can shoot it too!
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    scarface wrote: »
    Thanks for all of the info guys! My brother was at the LGS today and looked at the CZ and Ruger. The Ruger was in .375 Ruger and the CZ was .375 H&H. He is torn on the decision and really digs both rifles. I am just anxious to see what he buys so I can shoot it too!

    Yeah. . .I feel his pain. Funny that he and I are going through the same thing at the same time. Best I can do is keep you up to speed on my thought process, for I'm not 100% done with the quandry myself.

    I shot a Ruger just after its introduction, and the fired case I kept has been boring into my brain ever since. It is a simply BRILLIANT cartridge design - by making the entire cartridge body the same diameter as the belt on other magnums, it manages to slightly exceed the case capacity of the .375 H&H, but still fit inside a .30-06-length action. The round has no belt, it's got that nice, sharp Ackley-style shoulder and a case body with minimal taper. It's a truly modern cartridge design and, in and of itself, it makes a ton of good sense.

    BUT. . .

    Thus far, Hornady seems to be your only source of ammo and brass - which I find very odd because it doesn't require NEARLY as much caliber-specific work to the action (or a completely different action) as the H&H does. I would think that everybody making a .300 Win Mag compatible action (which IS everyone) would be cranking out guns in this chambering, but they aren't. It is also a lightweight gun for the amount of bad karma you are sending downrange. This can be good or bad. I found it fairly comfortable to shoot (for what it is), but individual results may vary.

    The H&H is a legend, as is the CZ - it being about the only magnum Mauser that won't cost you as much as a good used car. Ammo is the large/dangerous game equivalent of the .30-06; you will have to look around to find any in "civilized" places, but anywhere that stuff can eat or stomp you, it's basically a Wal Mart caliber.

    For just the aesthetics of it, the CZ IS truly a dedicated, specialized, dangerous game rifle, where the Ruger is a deer rifle with some reinforcing crossbolts in the stock and open sights added on. Don't take this to mean that I'm dissing the Ruger - it's an absolutely brilliant concept that allowed them to make an African-capable gun for only a tiny amount more money than their Bambi-drillers (Unfortunately, it also seems to have given them justification to discontinue their own incredibly nice H&H, Lott, and Rigby-capable model, but that's neither here nor there). The CZ gives you the all-steel bottom metal (rare these days), the multi-blade express sight, the replaceable front sight blade, and the cavernous magazine that holds five rounds instead of only three.

    The way I see it, the Ruger is kind of like a Mazda RX8 - a very high quality, impressively built ride that you can feel very smug about owning. . .right up until the 911 Turbo smokes past you.

    I'd rather carry the Ruger. I'd rather handload for the Ruger. I'd rather deal with the logistics of the .375H&H, and I'd rather own, shoot, and fend off big, ugly things with the CZ.

    There is not a single ounce of suck in either system. Your brother is just gonna have to prioritize. Hope that helps. Not sure it helped me. . .:silly:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    That 375 Ruger has really got my interest ever since i was discussing it with a certain someone whos is working on one for another someone.
    Of course, i need one like i need a hole in the head...

    "Need" is such a strong word, Chris. Come to the Dark Side.:tooth:

    The thing that's struck me lately is how logical rounds in this general category of bigger than .338, but smaller than .40 are. The .35 Whelan, 9.3x62 Mauser, and the "sensible" capacity .375 magnums will humanely kill pretty much anything that walks, they don't beat the snot out of you like the big .40+ rounds will, and they've got enough reach for anybody willing to get within two or three football fields. All of 'em pretty good contenders in those "you can only have one rifle" debates. . .
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    Well, ****. . .

    I just spent some time puttering around on CZ's website looking at their newer stuff.

    They aren't making the decision making process easier. Now available in the .375 Ruger:

    http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/express-rifle/

    Not cheap - more of a custom thing - but ****!
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • scarfacescarface Member Posts: 263 Member
    The .375 Ruger vs the H&H is pretty interesting. My brother was looking at the .375 Ruger and really liked the Ruger rifle. However, I think Bigslug has a great point with all the "Premium" aspects of the CZ rifle.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,871 Senior Member
    If you don't need a CRF rifle and still want the 375 Ruger, Howa has been producing them for a couple of years now, and Savage just started this year as well.
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,871 Senior Member
    BigSlug have you decided which improved version you are going with? The 375 JRS is probably the easiest to get loading dies for without having extremely long waits or custom reamers.

    The medium-heavies are great game killers, always have been, always will be! At the same time I can still see the appeal for the over .40 crowd and wanting a bit more....authority, when the bullet strikes the big nasties. A 9.3 or 375 will surely kill even the biggest bull elephant or cape buff with a well placed shot, but personally at least for the elephant, I'd opt for something a wee bit bigger. That is a very fast paced and up close game being played lol
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    I will go along with MHS. CZ makes some nice rifles in that cartridge. Also, have you considered the 375 Ruger? I don't think you can beat it for the money, and they tell me it's equal to the H&H or very close.

    But there's no flies in the Winchester's soup either. Any of those three you can get very reasonably.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,871 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    slightly off topic... If you are taking your gun to Africa, and you have 50 perfectly tested handloaded rounds, how do you get them there? Can the ammo go in the cargo hold separate from the gun? And what are the "import" requirements when you land in Jo'Burg?

    D

    A lot of it depends on your travel plans, ie country of origin, connecting flights, and final arrivals. For the most part though I believe all airlines allow up to 11lbs of ammo. It'll have to be in a hard cased container, in your luggage. Don't believe the ammo and guns can fly together. Also you cannot bring ammo that doesn't "match" your weapons. This is the big reason wildcats can be troublesome, the headstamp needs to match the barrel stamp. Although for something like Bigslug is doing, all you have to do is stamp 375 H&H on the barrel, and your ammo will match. Plus once he was in country, ammo could be purchased as well. But if you aren't traveling with a 458 Lott, don't bring ammo stamped 458 Lott.

    If you were planning a trip, your booking agent would likely suggest the use of a "landing service" in JoBurg, there are many of these, and in some other countries as well if that is how you enter Africa, like Windhoek or Dar es Salaam. But, nearly all hunters will enter through JoBurg. These landing services will usually have you fax a copy of your gun info that you obtain from customs in your home country. Basically these are proof of ownership papers. Then the landing service will prepare your SAPS forms for you, which is your form for bringing guns and ammo into Africa. You can do it yourself, but from what I gather from thousands of hunters is, pay the 100-200$ for the service. Too easy to create a problem for yourself if you screw up one tiny little detail.
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    If I'm going after Dumbo I want a 458 Lott or a 460 Weatherby with a 500 grain solid bullet. Whatever cannon I had would have a brake, and the best of recoil pads. I want to make sure he doesn't have the opportunity to run over me.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    BigSlug have you decided which improved version you are going with? The 375 JRS is probably the easiest to get loading dies for without having extremely long waits or custom reamers.

    Current thinking is the standard 40 degree Ackley Improved version of the standard H&H. No shortage of access to dies, reamers, etc... Seems to pretty closely duplicate the capacity and performance of the Ruger - though I'm more after an Improved version for better headspace control rather than extra power.

    I've had a hard time finding cartridge dimension diagrams for a lot of the wildcats - having had to resort to one of my 'smith's old books to find the AI blueprint. I'm curious about dimensions for the JRS and the Mashburn versions. If you can find any links to those, you're way ahead of me.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I will go along with MHS. CZ makes some nice rifles in that cartridge. Also, have you considered the 375 Ruger? I don't think you can beat it for the money, and they tell me it's equal to the H&H or very close.

    But there's no flies in the Winchester's soup either. Any of those three you can get very reasonably.



    Edited to Add!!! (After the Fact, Note to Self) Next time read further up the page before jumping in and posting-:silly::bang::nono:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,871 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Current thinking is the standard 40 degree Ackley Improved version of the standard H&H. No shortage of access to dies, reamers, etc... Seems to pretty closely duplicate the capacity and performance of the Ruger - though I'm more after an Improved version for better headspace control rather than extra power.

    I've had a hard time finding cartridge dimension diagrams for a lot of the wildcats - having had to resort to one of my 'smith's old books to find the AI blueprint. I'm curious about dimensions for the JRS and the Mashburn versions. If you can find any links to those, you're way ahead of me.

    http://www.municion.org/375/375Jrs.gif
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    AAAAAAACK! The metric system! EEEEEEEVILLLLLLLL!!!:tooth:



    Thanks. . .I think. :jester: It's always fun rolling back and forth between three tabs. . .

    OK. . .most of the metric figures for the JRS converted into something sort of sensible - though a couple were odd when compared to the original H&H.

    I've been working up a table of all these figures for various .375 rounds. Looks like the Ackley chamber could chamber and fire standard H&H and JRS, and can possibly shoot .375 Weatherby with the possibility of snug bolt closure (hard to tell 100% because of that radiused neck - might also be slight interference at the case mouth).

    That leaves the Mashburn as the last left to find blueprints on.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,871 Senior Member
    Oh alright, fine, ya big sissy. Here is a page with standard measurements instead of metric :queen:

    LOL just kidding. I actually couldn't remember the name of this page when I was looking for case drawings the other night. No Mashburn, but many others

    http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • scarfacescarface Member Posts: 263 Member
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    I think it's a fine scope and it should prove more than adequate for the 375 H&H.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,871 Senior Member
    http://www.nikonhunting.com/products/riflescopes/monarch_gold/1.5-6x42_German_4/6615

    Better.

    Let us not forget, the 375 Ruger/Wby/H&H/whatever, ARE used, effectively, for close up encounters with dangerous game, but its not exactly a bowling ball in the ballistics department. In the H&H with a 270gr bullet, you have the near identical trajectory as the 30-06 with a 180gr bullets. That means it is a solid 350-400 yard hunting rifle without holding that thing up in the air like an artillery piece. Scopes like the one you posted Scarface, IMHO, are better suited to rifles that won't ever likely see anything past 100 yards, and most of the time half of that. 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, 404 Jeffery, 470 Capstick...stuff made for animals bigger then mobile homes 5 yards in front of you. If you step "down" a bit more in the 375's to the 250-260, or even 230gr higher BC bullets like the TTSX, Accubonds or what have you, for PRACTICAL hunting purposes, what you have is something almost along the lines of a 338 Win mag with a bigger hole.

    The Nikon 2-8x32 Monarch, or 2-7x32 ProStaff would also be along the same lines. But, for possible DG work I'd rather have that German reticle, personally.
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    Nikon seems to be making pretty good glass for the cash, and have never heard a bad word. It should more than do the job for you.

    Money is always a factor, but ponder a moment on what's being built here - this is not a "need" rifle, like a kid's first .30-06. It is a "want" rifle being bought by someone who probably already has the basic bases covered. Since the guns we're discussing have iron sights, the scope is kind of a "want" item even after the rifle is acquired.

    The two platforms being pondered are a very nice, classically-styled European rifle, and a semi-tradtional American big bore sporter. The intended use of both is the classic semi-aristocratic pursuit of chasing large game on the Dark Continent.

    Keeping all of that in mind, there's something kinda "eeeeeew" about hanging a Japanese scope on either gun - no matter how good the scope might be. Kinda like low profiles and spinners on a 4-door Benz. Save the money and do it right.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • scarfacescarface Member Posts: 263 Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Nikon seems to be making pretty good glass for the cash, and have never heard a bad word. It should more than do the job for you.

    Money is always a factor, but ponder a moment on what's being built here - this is not a "need" rifle, like a kid's first .30-06. It is a "want" rifle being bought by someone who probably already has the basic bases covered. Since the guns we're discussing have iron sights, the scope is kind of a "want" item even after the rifle is acquired.

    The two platforms being pondered are a very nice, classically-styled European rifle, and a semi-tradtional American big bore sporter. The intended use of both is the classic semi-aristocratic pursuit of chasing large game on the Dark Continent.

    Keeping all of that in mind, there's something kinda "eeeeeew" about hanging a Japanese scope on either gun - no matter how good the scope might be. Kinda like low profiles and spinners on a 4-door Benz. Save the money and do it right.

    Here is the Leupold my bro is looking at. http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/scopes/vx-6-riflescopes/vx-6-1-6x24mm-cds-illum-reticle/

    I like this scope, but I think it limits his use of the rifle in North America. What do you all think.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    scarface wrote: »
    Here is the Leupold my bro is looking at. http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/scopes/vx-6-riflescopes/vx-6-1-6x24mm-cds-illum-reticle/

    I like this scope, but I think it limits his use of the rifle in North America. What do you all think.

    It's most likely a great scope. Most everything Leupold makes is good stuff. Depends on what kind of money you want to spend.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    That's exactly the scope I'm going to be hanging - as the primary at least. I don't know why you think it's an American-only scope. The illuminated 1x setting is PERFECT for the big and ugly stuff that wants to eat, stomp, or gore you.

    The nice thing about both the Ruger and the CZ is that quick disconnect rings can be had for either by aftermarket vendors. You can have two scopes pre-zeroed and ready to roll. For such a gun, a 3.5-10 or even a 4.5-14 wouldn't be a bad choice if you wanted to chase elk or African plains game with the gun. As we've already covered, you've got a .30-06-ish trajectory - if you're NOT in a dangerous game setting, might as well take full advantage.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Johnny rebJohnny reb Member Posts: 700 Senior Member
    A 2x8x32 is a good multi use sight for the 375
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