Question about full autos???

ghostsniper1

So I know about the ban on full autos in 1986 (I believe.) So if a person was to get a tax stamp today to own a full auto, would they have to look for a firearm made before the ban took effect??? Or how does this work?

ghostsniper1

Well that kind of puts a damper on things. Who wants a wore out full auto from almost 30 years ago??? I would think that a person with the proper licensing would be able to at least make their firearm full auto.

LMLarsen

IMO that's the biggest impediment - having to lay out five figures just for the pleasure of blowing thru $1000 in ammo in one afternoon.

shotgunshooter3

Beware, a rant follows:

It frustrates me quite a bit that we have to fork over 5 figures to get a 30 year old full auto gun, when the average gang banger or drug dealer just has to pay a couple C-notes, if that, to get a nice shiny FA AK, Uzi, Mac-10, etc...

Oh the bane of the law-abiding citizen.

ilove22s

ghostsniper1 wrote: »

Well that kind of puts a damper on things. Who wants a wore out full auto from almost 30 years ago??? I would think that a person with the proper licensing would be able to at least make their firearm full auto.

not true.

some are little used. depends on what u want.

also, have you priced any FAs? that in itself will probably put a damper on it.

if you want, go look for a machinegun shoot in your area. pay the $$$$$ to shoot them and call it good. you can probably shoot everything under the sun, but can your $$$ hold out?

ghostsniper1

I never had an interest in FA's. I was just curious about the law and all that. Besides, say some idiot took and filed the reset paw thingy in his rifle or whatever....... how the hell would LE know with out actually hearing the firearm or firing it themselves????

Jayhawker

ghostsniper1 wrote: »

I never had an interest in FA's. I was just curious about the law and all that. Besides, say some idiot took and filed the reset paw thingy in his rifle or whatever....... how the hell would LE know with out actually hearing the firearm or firing it themselves????

It goes a lot further than that...if you have a semi that malfunctions and goes full auto...you are guilty of a Federal offense....in some cases, the mere possession of certain full auto parts can land you in prison...because the part is considered the machine gun...additionally, you can go to prison for just TALKING about converting firearms to FA...Conspiracy don"t cha know...

All that being said...if you're close enough, you really have to go to Knob Creek (Westpoint, KY) for one of the twice yearly machine gun shoots...

http://www.knobcreekrange.com/

ghostsniper1

But 200 dollars to Uncle Sam and all of a sudden all is okay??? Wow this country is really screwed up.

Jayhawker

Wambli Ska wrote: »

Nope, $200 to Uncle Sam and a thorough Federal background check complete with fingerprints etc. Not nessesarily my idea of heaven but it's the law.

$200 to Uncle Sam and a thorough Federal background check complete with fingerprints etc. every time you buy another one...

NCFUBAR

Wambli Ska wrote: »

Nope, $200 to Uncle Sam and a thorough Federal background check complete with fingerprints etc. Not nessesarily my idea of heaven but it's the law.

PLUS in NC we would need the local sheriff to sign for ALL FA's (which a lot of 'em won't), a Trust don't work for that. FA isn't my thing BUT the fact we can't own supressors without the $200 tax stamp and trust/sheriff sign off is what torques my ... well you know.

ghostsniper1

Jayhawker wrote: »

It goes a lot further than that...if you have a semi that malfunctions and goes full auto...you are guilty of a Federal offense....in some cases, the mere possession of certain full auto parts can land you in prison...because the part is considered the machine gun...additionally, you can go to prison for just TALKING about converting firearms to FA...Conspiracy don"t cha know...

All that being said...if you're close enough, you really have to go to Knob Creek (Westpoint, KY) for one of the twice yearly machine gun shoots...

http://www.knobcreekrange.com/

Seriously??? How is that even remotely legitimate? Its not like a person can determine a malfunction is about to occur.

breamfisher

If you have a malfunction that you haven't fixed and you know it's going full-auto...

wddodge

Jayhawker wrote: »

It goes a lot further than that...if you have a semi that malfunctions and goes full auto...you are guilty of a Federal offense....in some cases, the mere possession of certain full auto parts can land you in prison...because the part is considered the machine gun...additionally, you can go to prison for just TALKING about converting firearms to FA...Conspiracy don"t cha know...

All that being said...if you're close enough, you really have to go to Knob Creek (Westpoint, KY) for one of the twice yearly machine gun shoots...

http://www.knobcreekrange.com/

I've been looking but can't find a reference to it.... IIRC about ten or so years ago, a gentleman bought a name brand (I think Rock River) AR brand new and it went full auto on him the first time he fired it. I'm thinking he did some jail time and spent a bunch of bucks before it was over. I think it was in Minn. but I may be wrong. I'll keep trying to find a link......

Denny

tennmike

ghostsniper1 wrote: »

I never had an interest in FA's. I was just curious about the law and all that. Besides, say some idiot took and filed the reset paw thingy in his rifle or whatever....... how the hell would LE know with out actually hearing the firearm or firing it themselves????

Thanks for the laugh! Every time I hear that old wives tale I get a good giggle out of it. It won't work, at least not as intended. If you're lucky the hammer will just follow the bolt as the first round is chambered, and nothing will happen. If you're unlucky, the hammer will hang just until the bolt locks up, and then the hammer will fall with no finger on the trigger, and the whole magazine will spray out in one burst. The full auto parts and burst parts fire control sets bear little resemblance to the semi auto version. A simple Google search would show that. The FA parts WON'T fit in a SA lower made after the early 90s. And, NO, I won't say why. Some advice; go find the person that told you that and smack them up side the head; HARD!

BTW, doing that with a semi auto rifle is good for a Federal felony conviction worth 10 years in prison and a minimum $10,000 fine last time I checked. It's buried in the ATF website in the regs somewhere. Funny thing is, you could have legally gotten one of the cheaper full autos for that 10 grand.

ghostsniper1

tennmike wrote: »

Thanks for the laugh! Every time I hear that old wives tale I get a good giggle out of it. It won't work, at least not as intended. If you're lucky the hammer will just follow the bolt as the first round is chambered, and nothing will happen. If you're unlucky, the hammer will hang just until the bolt locks up, and then the hammer will fall with no finger on the trigger, and the whole magazine will spray out in one burst. The full auto parts and burst parts fire control sets bear little resemblance to the semi auto version. A simple Google search would show that. The FA parts WON'T fit in a SA lower made after the early 90s. And, NO, I won't say why. Some advice; go find the person that told you that and smack them up side the head; HARD!

BTW, doing that with a semi auto rifle is good for a Federal felony conviction worth 10 years in prison and a minimum $10,000 fine last time I checked. It's buried in the ATF website in the regs somewhere. Funny thing is, you could have legally gotten one of the cheaper full autos for that 10 grand.

Didnt know the part about the wives tale, but did know the part about the legality of it. I sure aint no idiot. Done some stupid things in my short time here, but nothing that comes close to flirting with federal time. Like I said, I have no interest in FA, just curious about the ban and all that.

tennmike

I got burned out on the full auto firearms in the military (Navy and TN Nat'l Guard). They're fun for a couple of magazines or half a belt, and then get old pretty quick. Only one I'd care to shoot again is the Browning M2HB. Slow enough rate of fire that you can get off single shots, and the muzzle blast just rocks your world. Go to a machine gun shoot and spend the money to shoot a few different ones. You'll know pretty quick if you're interested, especially as your wallet gets lighter and lighter. Those things have a voracious appetite. There are still a couple of 'bump fire' trigger attachments on the market for the AR. They pretty closely mimic the rate of fire (and inaccuracy) of full auto. Worth a look if you're curious, and they are legal.

ghostsniper1

I will admit though that the thing I mentioned about filing the reset paw wasnt heard or read about. One day when cleaning my cheap Cobra pistol with the slide off, I was learning the workings and functions when I noticed the little paw would reset the trigger when pushed manually by me (normally by each cycle of the slide.) I then figured, well if that was ever done away with, the thing would be run away auto, as the firing pin would draw back and release into the bullet again, and again, etc...... Nothing I want to experiment with though. Not sure how it would fare with another type of firing mechanism (and dont want to know.)

Teach

Go to the you tube site and search "bump fire". You'll get a bunch of hits showing idiots spraying lots of ammo in a generally downrange direction by using various methods to take advantage of the recoil of semi-auto rifles to trip the trigger repeatedly. Some of them actually resemble full-auto fire. Owning some stock in an ammo factory is a good idea before you get too involved in learning some of those techniques!
Jerry

robert38-55

I don't have an FFL nor do I know a lot about the internal workings of a machine gun, or submachine gun.. I like history and antiques, and have always been fascinated by the old thompson sub-machine guns, and the Browning BAR. and the machine-guns and sub-machine guns of WWI and especiall WWII.. I would never never attempt to convert any semi-auto of mine into a fully automatic, by altering parts inside of it, even if I had the knowledge, its just to risky, and dangerous, a semi-auto wasn't made for that.. Using a proper platform and with approiate parts to fully convert one, might be a different story, if one had the stamp and the proper class FFL to do so.... AT one time I wanted to own a few sub-machine guns, and machine guns, but I have lost the interest in that endevor...

.. One of the most fun things I ever did, when I live in Colorado was go to the RMGO BMG .50cal annual machine gun shoot, usually held in Ft.Morgan Co. RMGO has a website and they usually post about the time and place. I would save money for the event every year.. There for a small fee one could shoot a magazine of just about any type of submachine gun that was there, I shot a Mac 10, Uzi, Thompson, It was fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But as some one said just keeping the weapon in ammo, would take the yearly salary of the microsoft company...... I watched a dude fire a belt of ammo through an M-60 and couldnot believe how fast that weapon went through ammo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

robert38-55

Teach wrote: »

Go to the you tube site and search "bump fire". You'll get a bunch of hits showing idiots spraying lots of ammo in a generally downrange direction by using various methods to take advantage of the recoil of semi-auto rifles to trip the trigger repeatedly. Some of them actually resemble full-auto fire. Owning some stock in an ammo factory is a good idea before you get too involved in learning some of those techniques!
Jerry

Thanks for the tip Teach! Now I know how they did that......I would not treat my guns in such a mannor as that!!! You said it right Teach, "A bunch of idiots"

NCFUBAR

Typical bump fire seems pointless and inaccurate. The new thing is the Slide Fire stock thingie, http://www.slidefiresolutions.com/index.html , and does work well once you get the hang of it. I fire one at the range and it was fun for a couple mags then ... big hairy deal. The stock costs around $350 and then all the ammo you waste just doesn't appeal to me. It isn't FA but if you want a taste it would be the cheapest way and not have to go through all the paperwork.

bruchi

Some wishful thinking/hoping here, say an "agency" wanted to get other stuff and get rid of what they had on their armory, including the full auto stuff, could they sell that to civilians where full auto is legal via a stamp?

breamfisher

If it's made after May, 1986? Not here in the U.S. That stuff is only for LE/Military.

DoctorWho

tennmike wrote: »

Thanks for the laugh! Every time I hear that old wives tale I get a good giggle out of it. It won't work, at least not as intended. If you're lucky the hammer will just follow the bolt as the first round is chambered, and nothing will happen. If you're unlucky, the hammer will hang just until the bolt locks up, and then the hammer will fall with no finger on the trigger, and the whole magazine will spray out in one burst. The full auto parts and burst parts fire control sets bear little resemblance to the semi auto version. A simple Google search would show that. The FA parts WON'T fit in a SA lower made after the early 90s. And, NO, I won't say why. Some advice; go find the person that told you that and smack them up side the head; HARD!

BTW, doing that with a semi auto rifle is good for a Federal felony conviction worth 10 years in prison and a minimum $10,000 fine last time I checked. It's buried in the ATF website in the regs somewhere. Funny thing is, you could have legally gotten one of the cheaper full autos for that 10 grand.

That is not factual, the only part that will not fit sometimes is an Aftermarket auto-sear, and those could be reduced to make them fit.

M-16 bolt compared to AR-15 bolt dimensions are the same, the M-16 bolt is cut differently to trigger the auto sear when it goes to battery.
The M-16 sears tail is longer, the selector is different for full auto as is the hammer.....
Possession of M-16 parts (iffy) with or without actually converting and or possession of an AR-15 could land you in jail.

Just talking about it is not enough, you must actually try to buy a FA, make a deal to convert one, and a FED would actually want to receive the goods in order to make a case in Court.

NCFUBAR

Doc, I am with Mike on this one. The internal millings are a different spec all together. If you look at the lower from a FA side by side with a SA you'll see the difference in the rear area cuts. Like Mike says that is about as specific as we need to get here. Next having M16 parts is not a bad thing. I have 2 M16 BCGs ... it is the FA sear and fire control assembly that is the NO NO. Short and simple unless you can own a post 1986 FA (dealer or such) you'll pay 5 digits for that right most likely. If you try to go around that well that will cost you 5 digits plus lawyer's fees and 10 years maybe.

tennmike

Doc, I already said I wouldn't go into the specifics of the lower. I know that you can buy a complete parts set for the M-16 less the fire control parts, and I know where the full auto fire control parts are available. But after the AR 15 lower specs were changed in the early 90s as best as I can remember, the full auto parts sets will NOT fit even if you filed down the sear tail. And the burst fire parts sets won't even begin to fit in an AR 15 lower after the change date. The AR 16 bolt and carrier are pretty much necessary to do the conversion. They will fit a standard AR 15, but it will still be a semiauto without extensive lower receiver work. And that's all I'll say about that.

ghostsniper1

It doesnt need to be talked about like a cult secret. Hell its not like we aren't all on the www here. Any info, even that which shouldn't be made available to the public is easily googlable. But its not something worth putting much steam into for me anyways. But needless to say, its cool that there are people like you fellas out there that actually know what in the world you are talking about and could technically make said changes if need be.

DoctorWho

Pardon Me but a few folks around here are wrong, an M-16 bolt carrier is identical in dimensions to an AR-15 bolt carrier save one thing, the cut on the back of the carrier of the M-16 is less so it can trip the auto-sear.

Just having an M-16 bolt carrier can land you in jail if BATFE wants to press the issue and prosecute on a presumption of intent to build a full automatic weapon.

And just for the record, I learned all this stuff first hand when I wore a badge, We had to attend lectures by BATFE as to the aspects of what is and what is not a crime as far as parts, parts kits, possession in conjunction with an unconverted AR-15,

We were instructed that possession of an unconverted AR-15 and 3 full auto parts, trigger, auto sear, selector, was prima facie case of intent to posses a full automatic firearm.

breamfisher

I would suggest folks read the following letter regarding the use of M16 bolt carriers in AR15's. It's from the ATF.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/ATF%20M16%20Letter.pdf

tennmike

Now Earl, quit clouding the discussion with facts. It muddies the water considerably.:tooth:

tennmike

DoctorWho, I never said the AR15 and M16 bolts were not the same dimensionally. I said the M16 bolt and carrier were different and necessary for full auto operation. I just didn't say that the carrier had the cut in it. You read words that weren't there.

What I learned about the M16 was through detail stripping hundreds of them while in the military. We had both M14 and M16 rifles aboard ship, and the small arms locker was my second home. The GMs and I were pretty good buddies from Shore Patrol duty and being from the South. I also had a FFL in the early 90s and sold complete lowers, and parts sets, and stripped lower receivers. People paid stupid prices for that stuff, and I needed the money. President Clinton was my best sales rep.They hated filling out the paperwork for the lowers, though. I had ample opportunity at the shows to peruse the internals of older Colt AR15 lowers, and they were missing the block in the rear. I don't know the year that block make it's debut, but it precludes installing the full auto parts. I know what I know by direct empirical evidence. You are, perhaps, more familiar with the lowers made before the government mandated change in the lowers to preclude assembly with the M16 fire control group.

Full auto lower parts sets used to be sold by several big, and familiar to us, gun parts companies legally. I don't know if those companies still do, and don't care.
But here's one in case you're interested, less disconnector and barrel and lower receiver:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/used-us-military-colt-m16a1-parts-kit.aspx?a=796481