Knife to a gun fight: Mythbusters

Dr. dbDr. db Senior MemberPosts: 1,541 Senior Member
Did you see it?
«1

Replies

  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    I'm not sure what to look for.
    :uhm:
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    The Mythbusters TV show tested the "myth" that it is stupid to bring a knife to a gun fight. Jaimie was able to "kill" Adam even from a distance of 16 ft. before Adam could draw his pistol.
    It seemed to emphasize that a knife is a decent weapon in untrained hands whereas a gun is not.
    There was an additional comic relief of watching Adam trying to do a quick draw.
  • QuinianQuinian Senior Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    Those clowns routinely screw up myths just so they can "bust" it. I have seen several "busted myths" they've done that I have seen proven in person.
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    I don't watch the show. Old Three Stooges episodes are funnier. And more informative.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    Dr. db wrote: »
    The Mythbusters TV show tested the "myth" that it is stupid to bring a knife to a gun fight. Jaimie was able to "kill" Adam even from a distance of 16 ft. before Adam could draw his pistol.
    It seemed to emphasize that a knife is a decent weapon in untrained hands whereas a gun is not.
    There was an additional comic relief of watching Adam trying to do a quick draw.
    Odd that they would try and show something that has been proven, time and again, in self defense courses, law enforcement training sessions, and in court.

    I guess they'd never heard of the 21 ft. rule...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    Try that with Jerry Miculek holding the gun sometime!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • QuinianQuinian Senior Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Try that with Jerry Miculek holding the gun sometime!
    Jerry

    lol yeah or Bob Munden or Cisco Kid

    Older footage of Bob, he could take both myth busters is less than a second - now a days he does insane accuracy with revolvers over on Impossible Shots
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcZHVspVIDs
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Oh come on fellas. I know they are kinda geeky, but thats one of my favorite shows since physics and science are two things I truely enjoy. I think at least........ they try their best. And they truely like guns.
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    Actually, I think they like to see themselves on TV and the fat paycheck.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    I don't know the 21 ft rule. File that under the millions of things I don't know.

    Also, Adam was about as fast as Jug in "Support Your Local Gunfighter"
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    Basically, the "21-foot rule" means don't let an attacker get closer than 7 yards before you start shooting, if at all possible. A determined attacker can close to within arm's length before you can get your gun into action if he's closer than that.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Basically, the "21-foot rule" means don't let an attacker get closer than 7 yards before you start shooting, if at all possible. A determined attacker can close to within arm's length before you can get your gun into action if he's closer than that.
    Jerry


    Yep, and when you're talking about a lethal encounter, a tie is still a loss. :(
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    You are just jealous. I know I am. Get PAID to BLOW THINGS UP? Yep. Sign me up.

    I once had a job at the carnival filling balloons.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Massad Ayoob has some very good advice / routines for facing attackers with edged weapons....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Used to enjoy Mythbusters but nowdays they take soooo long to set up a stunt that they bore me, accurate or not.

    Whether a knife to a gunfight? Well, guns were made specifically for the reason that you want to keep the person away from reach, "equalizer" and so on.

    Perfectly understandable that a knife attacker can sometimes get to you if you're not prepared. And even if you are. But if you're not armed, you have zero chance.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    There was an incident on the Staten Island fairy, (typo) a man ran amock with a sword slicing people, until he tried to make sushi out of an off duty police officer, and got killed for his troubles.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • PFDPFD Senior Member Posts: 1,202 Senior Member
    When I took my CCW class our instructor first checked my gun to make sure it was unloaded and then had the class watch while I stood at the 7 yard line and he took a machete and walked back and forth where the targets stood, imitating a person who was "agitated".

    My instructions were to watch and wait for him to "charge" me. When he did, I was to draw, point my gun well to the side of him and yell bang.

    The first time, I bobbled my grab and by the time I got a good grip and was pulling my gun from the holster he was running right by me. If I had shot him it would have been while he had knocked me down and was hacking away at me.

    The second time, I executed a decent draw and yelled bang just as he was about 3 feet from me which means he still would have hacked on me but at least he would have started with one shot in him.

    Neither scenario was good for the guy that brought a gun to a knife fight.

    It's an interesting drill and really left an impression on me.
    That's all I got.

    Paul
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    PFD wrote: »
    When I took my CCW class our instructor first checked my gun to make sure it was unloaded and then had the class watch while I stood at the 7 yard line and he took a machete and walked back and forth where the targets stood, imitating a person who was "agitated".

    My instructions were to watch and wait for him to "charge" me. When he did, I was to draw, point my gun well to the side of him and yell bang.

    The first time, I bobbled my grab and by the time I got a good grip and was pulling my gun from the holster he was running right by me. If I had shot him it would have been while he had knocked me down and was hacking away at me.

    The second time, I executed a decent draw and yelled bang just as he was about 3 feet from me which means he still would have hacked on me but at least he would have started with one shot in him.

    Neither scenario was good for the guy that brought a gun to a knife fight.

    It's an interesting drill and really left an impression on me.

    A good and eye-opening drill indeed!

    I've done a bit of reading on this since my brother told me about the video from 20 years ago of Dan Inosanto vs. unrehearsed officers, basically demo exactly what you went through: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo . Keep in mind these officers open carried...it's a lot harder to draw from concealed position. In the end, mythbusters just re-validated what has been known in the SD world. Interestingly enough, here's an article in 2005 talking about the "corruption" of the rule and taking a "fresh look" at it: http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

    I don't know what the answer is, but training hand-to-hand against edged weapons is certainly advisable. Retreating FAST, zig zagging while drawing? A lot of time I think it has to do with luck too. The lesson is still that carrying a gun doesn't make you invincible against non-firearms toting aggressors. Situation awareness is the ultimate defense.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    It might be wise to remember what sort of situation can result from an up close and violent encounter with a totally unarmed assailant - - - - -ask George Zimmerman about that scenario! Getting sucker-punched and ending up as the meat in the sandwich between a determined attacker and a concrete sidewalk can have some bad consequences!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    Once the attacker is inside that critical perimeter an SD Instructor friend of mine said your first priority has to be isolating/controlling the knife. Therefore at some point is drawing a gun counter productive?
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    Dr. db wrote: »
    Once the attacker is inside that critical perimeter an SD Instructor friend of mine said your first priority has to be isolating/controlling the knife. Therefore at some point is drawing a gun counter productive?
    Yes, unfortunately. What you might be able to do is control the knife with the support hand and draw with the dominant hand, but let's be honest... how many can really do that? I would guess that most folks (myself included) don't have any formal knife-fighting training to speak of, both from an offensive and a defensive aspect.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,967 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Get PAID to BLOW THINGS UP? .
    I had a job doing that for a few months, once.

    Now, :tissue: it's just zombie jugs.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    Thc crews I used to fly with got paid to blow up stuff from 30,000 feet or so up in the air. I was just along for the ride, working on the electronics!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    Dr. db wrote: »
    Once the attacker is inside that critical perimeter an SD Instructor friend of mine said your first priority has to be isolating/controlling the knife. Therefore at some point is drawing a gun counter productive?

    May as well get something in your mind right now...if you get into a close contact encounter with a knife wielding attacker...You're gonna get cut...not saying you're going to die, but you're going to bleed...just the way it is... Best Defense is a high level of alertness and boundaries...no one you don't know gets inside that boundary without being challenged...
    while you're challenging, you are creating as much space as you can by moving, you are also bringing you weapon into play...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    mythaeus wrote: »
    A good and eye-opening drill indeed!

    I've done a bit of reading on this since my brother told me about the video from 20 years ago of Dan Inosanto vs. unrehearsed officers, basically demo exactly what you went through: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo . Keep in mind these officers open carried...it's a lot harder to draw from concealed position. In the end, mythbusters just re-validated what has been known in the SD world. Interestingly enough, here's an article in 2005 talking about the "corruption" of the rule and taking a "fresh look" at it: http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

    I don't know what the answer is, but training hand-to-hand against edged weapons is certainly advisable. Retreating FAST, zig zagging while drawing? A lot of time I think it has to do with luck too. The lesson is still that carrying a gun doesn't make you invincible against non-firearms toting aggressors. Situation awareness is the ultimate defense.

    Al

    Dan Inosanto? I'd give up.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Maybe I'm missing something here. Just because someone is coming at me with a knife does not mean that MY feet must remain rooted to the ground. Beat feet in some other direction until you get your CCW out, THEN stop, turn, and run it to slide lock.

    If you're cornered, fall flat on your back while pulling your CCW and run it to slide lock. The guy with the knife will have to pretty much stop and bend over to get at you with the knife.

    Both tactics buy you a little time to get it together, and that second or two can mean the difference between coming out of the situation with your hide intact, or leaking 'transmission fluid' on the ground.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    May as well get something in your mind right now...if you get into a close contact encounter with a knife wielding attacker...You're gonna get cut...not saying you're going to die, but you're going to bleed...just the way it is... Best Defense is a high level of alertness and boundaries...no one you don't know gets inside that boundary without being challenged...
    while you're challenging, you are creating as much space as you can by moving, you are also bringing you weapon into play...

    Good. At least I know I taught my kids correctly.

    These were the things I taught them.
    Be aware first.
    Run if you can.
    Loudly challenge.
    You are going to get cut.
    Control the knife. Otherwise your punches won't be nearly as damaging as his. We practiced with a hoodie. Just a quick wrap up the blade. They were only 7th graders after all.
    Fight dirty. You win. He doesn't.

    Since up until now all my training, very little, and thoughts, quite a lot, have been toward unarmed self defense, I was unsure and, "he who hesitates is lost."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    Say what you want about the Mythbusters, but they blow stuff up and get paid well for doing it. Sometimes the show is ridiculous, but in the end, something is going to burn or disintegrate - yeehaw!
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Say what you want about the Mythbusters, but they blow stuff up and get paid well for doing it. Sometimes the show is ridiculous, but in the end, something is going to burn or disintegrate - yeehaw!

    They DO need to do some work on the ballistics of antique artillery pieces though.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    Another option is to scream, cry, beg, assume the fetal position, or employ any other method of distraction while you're in the process of surreptitiously drawing your CCW. Then you can have a sudden change of attitude after the scumbag has dismissed you as a cowardly wuss.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
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