What to do when out numbered and/or out gunned

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Replies

  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    Tricky situation if you ask me.
    To be totally submissive in this scenario would require you to keep your hands visible, which means you won't be able to draw your gun quickly enough if needed.
    If you go pulling a gun you are likely to get shot. So you wouldn't want to pull it unless it's a last ditch effort to save your life, yet you would want to have your hand on the gun.
    There have been a couple of instances in my life where I was outnumbered and outgunned. I have found showing respect that you are outnumbered, but not showing fear earns you respect (not that you need it) from the criminal.
    If it were me in that scenario... I would probably have a hand on my gun and the other on a fork eating trying not to attract attention. If a gunman did see me with one hand under the table I would probably crack a joke with the thugs.. something like.
    "You dont mind if I finish my breakfast while you guys work do you? I am hungry and this crap is good. You should grab a to go order along with the cash"
    The attention then gets diverted to me being a hungry bastard that still has an appetite even in a crisis, and away from the fact that my other hand is under the table.
  • ApexxApexx Member Posts: 111 Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    "Out gunned in a room full of people. Someone points a gun at the person behind the cash register so you pull and start shooting? What odds to you give that nobody but the bad guys get hit in that situation? Are you that good?"

    You must be pretty dumb if you are going to judge My ability without knowing My experiences or training or whatever..........

    1. You quoted and responded to something that was not directed to you.
    2. It was a question not a judgement. Again not directed to you.
  • ChuckXXChuckXX Banned Posts: 103 Member
    What is a "robbery measuring stick"???
  • ApexxApexx Member Posts: 111 Member
    ChuckXX wrote: »
    What is a "robbery measuring stick"???

    The measurment sticker applied next to the door in quickie marts, fast food, etc...So witnesses can guage the height of criminals when they turn and run out the door.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Apexx wrote: »
    The measurment sticker applied next to the door in quickie marts, fast food, etc...So witnesses can guage the height of criminals when they turn and run out the door.


    :that:

    One at a local gas station goes from 3' 6", all the way to 8' 6".

    There's gotta be a anti-pc joke in there somewhere. :tooth:
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    :that:

    One at a local gas station goes from 3' 6", all the way to 8' 6".

    There's gotta be a anti-pc joke in there somewhere. :tooth:

    I can imagine a group, the "Short or tall gas station robber association of America" filing a suit proclaiming discrimination if the measuring tape is not short or long enough. :hand:

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • CaptainAhabCaptainAhab Member Posts: 93 Member
    I guess I am a bit perplexed at this thread; consensus seems to be start shooting instantly or else full surrender. Really? That's the only options? There's no damn way I am going to surrender. Period. But I also think a few seconds pause (when possible) will do several things; it will let you survey the real threat, mentally locate non-threats especially your family, but it will also let the baddies think they are safe due to no one challenging them instantly. Every situation requires different actions, but the attempt should always be at action, not reaction. Don't let them lead the fight. Give them a second to assume they are in control, then upset the tables (figuratively! ...or not...) . Surprise is a huge advantage.
    In reply to Xerxes' demand to lay down his weapons, Leonidas replied;
    "Molon Labe"..... "Come and take them!"
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,549 Senior Member
    Apexx wrote: »
    I concluded that no matter how hard as it might be to do so, taking a submissive approach would be the best chance of getting my family and others out alive and not harmed.

    Assumming ONLY what I described above, would you conclude the same?

    I have always tried to think realistically about what my abilities would allow me to do in such a life threatening scenario. I always come to the same conclusion. A fast draw ain't gonna get it done for me, unless the bad guys are incompetent. In fact, if they are experienced and competent at their chosen trade, not much is going to work.

    So, I'm guessing that I would do nothing to draw fire towards my family unless some event convinced me that it was necessary. The odds of success would just be too long, and there would be too many stray bullets flying.

    If I did become convinced that I had no choice but to attempt some desperate act, I guess I would probably try to take advantage of some diversion to get my weapon in hand and then take the first opportunity that presented itself to make an accurate first shot, hopefully following it up with some more just like it, while moving away from those I wanted to protect.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    etc etc There have been a couple of instances in my life where I was outnumbered and outgunned. I have found showing respect that you are outnumbered, but not showing fear earns you respect (not that you need it) from the criminal.
    If it were me in that scenario... I would probably have a hand on my gun and the other on a fork eating trying not to attract attention. If a gunman did see me with one hand under the table I would probably crack a joke with the thugs.. something like.
    "You dont mind if I finish my breakfast while you guys work do you? I am hungry and this crap is good. You should grab a to go order along with the cash"
    The attention then gets diverted to me being a hungry bastard that still has an appetite even in a crisis, and away from the fact that my other hand is under the table.

    That's one of the strangest stories I've ever heard, sounds like something from a movie like Pulp Fiction.

    Speaking to one of the armed robbers that way would likely get the gun's muzzle shoved into your ear with orders to "get the xyz up!" if not shot immediately.

    My experience with armed people is less than yours -- you seem to have lots of experience confronting armed people -- probably more than anyone else in this forum, it seems from how you describe it, but "respecting" a thug will get you nothing but attention, I think.

    The initial scenario is not too specific, which is fine --- each situation is different anyway. My "take" is this... If you find yourself staring down the muzzle of a gun, you probably have little choice but to comply, and hope for a moment that you can draw and fire without getting shot first.

    I'd hate to imagine the case in which I have to make a potentially fatal decision, a gun pointed straight at me and my guessing that I'd later be killed (herded into the back room, etc), in which case I'd just have to try to knock the gun aside and draw mine. Otherwise, if I was simply in a group of people who were all under general threat (bad guys announcing "robbery", waving guns) but I wasn't personally being scrutinized, yes, I'd draw and fire at the first opportunity --- point being that there may not be a second chance.

    I don't wish the choice on anyone but as I said, robbers generally don't think that the civilian sitting 2 aisles away is armed and most of all, prepared and capable of armed self defense. Two-three bad guys waving guns, suddenly "Joe" goes down from a head shot or a couple of well aimed body shots. As most of you know, a medium or large caliber pistol fired in a closed room (restaurant) is a huge noise and only a major-trained pro can act quickly right afterward.

    You, the civilian defender, may not be a "pro" but you have the benefit of surprise and you know that you're shooting the bad guys, surprising them. It may be enough to get the other baddies to run, maybe not. They may turn and start shooting at you. But that's better than being herded into the back room, searched and disarmed on the way.

    Such a scenario is very complex and there could be quite a few different outcomes. Chevelle's experience is that making a joke with the bad guys and showing respect might do the trick. He's obviously someone with considerable experience in such things, far more than I.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,650 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    219-o-rly.jpg

    :rotflmao:
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,549 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    There have been a couple of instances in my life where I was outnumbered and outgunned. I have found showing respect that you are outnumbered, but not showing fear earns you respect (not that you need it) from the criminal.
    If it were me in that scenario... I would probably have a hand on my gun and the other on a fork eating trying not to attract attention. If a gunman did see me with one hand under the table I would probably crack a joke with the thugs.. something like.
    "You dont mind if I finish my breakfast while you guys work do you? I am hungry and this crap is good. You should grab a to go order along with the cash"
    The attention then gets diverted to me being a hungry bastard that still has an appetite even in a crisis, and away from the fact that my other hand is under the table.

    Please tell me you're kidding. Is there a new Lethal Weapon sequel out that I missed? Don't forget that John Riggs (or whatever Mel Gibson's character was named) was a borderline lunatic. The writers had to portray him that way to give the movie some tiny little bit of credibility. :yikes:
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "If it were me in that scenario... I would probably have a hand on my gun and the other on a fork eating trying not to attract attention. If a gunman did see me with one hand under the table I would probably crack a joke with the thugs.. something like.
    "You dont mind if I finish my breakfast while you guys work do you? I am hungry and this crap is good. You should grab a to go order along with the cash"
    The attention then gets diverted to me being a hungry bastard that still has an appetite even in a crisis, and away from the fact that my other hand is under the table."

    *************************************

    Now if the food was that bad, I would not eat there, Ha ha.... humor..


    That statement is about as asinine as it gets, that would work in one of those gangster based computer games, Perhaps, however in real life, if you have already for whatever reason attracted that much attention to yourself and your family, chances are good you are all in dire straights and in danger of getting killed off, hence why I said that My decision to be pro-active in My defensive strategy and start shooting the bad guys as soon as it becomes feasible to do so, better is a good plan executed expediently than a great plan executed too late to be effective....

    My ideas run sort of like this, It is really important to CCW the best most accurate handgun possible that you are really confident in and competent with and can chew ragged holes all day long with boring consistency, if you are still getting pesky off target fliers and can't group those shots well within the center of a B-10 target at ranges of 10- 20 feet, work at it until you can....

    BTW the holster system you choose is critical !!! if drawing your CCW screams GUN to folks around you, that may complicate things somewhat, that is why I personally dislike strong side carry holsters, as opposed to weak side carry ie cross draw, IMHO that movement conveys information much like a dog raising it's leg to urinate, it is too obvious, you never want to make it that obvious that you are drawing a gun, no one carries their wallet strong side on their belt, hence any holster system / position that looks more like you are about to surrender a wallet gives you a better chance of survival, you may get shot anyway, perhaps not.

    A scenario like that requires lots of thought and advance work and practice etc...... and a fair amount of monetary investment as far as purchasing an adequate CCW handgun, and practice is not cheap... Why I am starting to think more along the lines of a full size 1911 or Glock 17, remembering that a belly gun with a short barrel & short sight radius may not be the greatest choice in such a scenario as far as shot placement goes, there is a big difference between this type of personal defense scenario and one that takes place at shorter ranges and wide open spaces like a deserted parking lot......

    On the other side of the coin, the bad guys will not be all knowing and all wise, they too will experience the adrenaline rush of fight or flight, and tunnel vision, fear maybe even cowardice, it is doubtful they will be " professionals" the motive for such robberies many time is an addiction to drugs and or alcohol and those folk are not investing money in ammo range practice and guns as it will leave less money for drugs and alcohol.... The aim is not likely to be great unless they get lucky......

    Remember, sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander, the same frailties that affect the CCW, also affect the bad guys thereby leveling the playing field, also don't worry about the bad guys shooting back etc.... because if they intend to shoot, they will shoot regardless of what you do or do not do......

    Depending on the age of the criminals, you can tell much, in general with some notable exceptions if they are in their late teens, early twenties, perhaps you stand a better chance of survival in a gun fight because teens really lack discipline and resolve, unless they grew up around shooting, the older criminal element is more dangerous due to more exposure and practical skills, however there are always notable exceptions and nothing is written in stone, it also depends on other elements.

    Take precautions and do the best you can.... Hence why as paranoid as I am, I choose the area where I am going to sit in an eating establishment very carefully..... Be aware of your surroundings and be aware of other people too, if you see tells, someone looking like they are out of place and extremely nervous, heavy coat or jacket in warmer..... weather etc...
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Sam, you mean you wouldn't just sit there "eatin your muffin"???

    Well, mmm, if the muffin is an actual corn or bran baked item, no. However "eating a muffin" in the slang sense would likely not be done in a coffee shop anyway. Management would probably ask us to leave.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Doc, thanks for an excellent analysis of the situation and some fine feedback. You also get 2 bonus points for using "sauce for the goose..." correctly.

    A situation such as multiple baddies invading a restaurant (the basic scenario we're starting from) is, to quote WC Fields, "fraught with imminent peril" and the outcome may not go well regardless, either for robber or customer. Someone is likely to get very much shot.

    Like you, I try to be very observant at all times, even though I've never had military or LEO training, but I have had some excellent handgun instructors (starting with my Dad). Sweep the field of view, know your position, assess your chances, these and other good common sense points not just for armed self defense, but for everyday life.

    As most of you know I've been (lucky? unlucky?) to have been in several armed confrontations despite the fact that I'm a total citizen and that most of these occurred before I had a carry permit. I won't go into detail about these but there is a "deciding" factor: whether someone is actually pointing a gun right at you, or not. If you're being aimed at, best to sit or stand quietly and wait till the gun moves to another point.

    You may have no choice. If you really think you're gonna get murdered in the back room and are being ordered there, last chance becomes your only chance, to get close enough to the baddie to push the muzzle away and draw your own. There are techniques for this, and like most of us, I've had a small amount of instruction on the tactic, not a lot. Better if you deflect a right-handed gun with your right arm, pushing to your right so that you're to the assailant's right side and not in front. He obviously can't rotate his right wrist backwards but he can forwards. This is just one possible technique and they are all desperate and last-minute decisions. People skilled in martial arts these days take anti-weapon disarming classes and can get pretty good at that. I just know a couple of the basics and have zero practice.

    That is assuming you're at close quarters and think you'll soon be murdered. Submitting therefore is not an option.

    At a greater distance, you might be as unobtrusive and blend much as possible, maybe turn slightly so your drawing hand will be away from view. And the second you're not being pointed at, draw and fire and keep firing.

    There are no guarantees here and we're discussing possible scenarios, and most everything is speculative.

    A true story from years ago here in Houston. There was a downtown cop bar called "Kuffs" (closed now), a typical downtown tavern, long bar, couple booths at the back, mostly guys, plainclothes only (you're not supposed to drink alcohol in uniform even if off duty in Houston). This druggie came in to rob the place one evening. I'm saying "druggie" because no sensible person would try a stickup of a bar that had police plaques in the window, when you walked inside rows and rows of cop photos on the wall.

    The shaky guy went along the bar stools, collecting wallets and pointing his small pistol at each person. About 2/3 the way along, a homicide cop held out his wallet, then when the guy reached, the cop dropped it onto the floor. The robber stooped over to pick it up, the cop calmly drew his .38 and shot the robber in the back of his head.

    Not all scenarios are like that one.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,727 Senior Member
    This is one of those situations that have too many variables to just have one answer for all of them. One thing no one has addressed, though. If you are in a position that puts the bad guys backs to you, and they start shooting at employees or customers, do you have any moral objection to shooting them in the back? I guess that's one of those variables that almost no one thinks about, but it could happen.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • Jack BurtonJack Burton Member Posts: 379 Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    This is one of those situations that have too many variables to just have one answer for all of them.
    Very true. Which is why I have not taken part. Until now.
    tennmike wrote: »
    One thing no one has addressed, though. If you are in a position that puts the bad guys backs to you, and they start shooting at employees or customers, do you have any moral objection to shooting them in the back? I guess that's one of those variables that almost no one thinks about, but it could happen.
    I really hope something like this doesn't have to pre-thought about by anyone else on here. The obvious questions your scenario begs to be asked is why would you assume their murderous rampage may end before they got to you? The other being, If you escape with your life as a passive witness to a mass murder, doing nothing to intervene, how could you live with yourself?
    Came for the fishing, stayed for the guns.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    This is one of those situations that have too many variables to just have one answer for all of them. One thing no one has addressed, though. If you are in a position that puts the bad guys backs to you, and they start shooting at employees or customers, do you have any moral objection to shooting them in the back? I guess that's one of those variables that almost no one thinks about, but it could happen.

    Since Sam quoted W.C. Fields so will I, never give a sucker an even break !!!! if a choice opportune target is presented to you on a silver platter, accept / take it !!!!

    Edited to add, once the bad guys fire a shot, there is open season on bad guys !!!!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Please tell me you're kidding. Is there a new Lethal Weapon sequel out that I missed? Don't forget that John Riggs (or whatever Mel Gibson's character was named) was a borderline lunatic. The writers had to portray him that way to give the movie some tiny little bit of credibility. :yikes:

    Not kidding at all. Have you had a gun held to your temple? ... I have...
    Have you been cold cocked in the side of the face with a brick and had a few teeth chipped out while another guy held a gun?... I have..How about tied up by several guys and had a knife held to your throat?... yup I been there to.
    In all instances I did two things, showed respect, did not show fear.

    Frankly I could give a big brown turd wether you believe me or not.
    You are just another guy on the net to me.
    If the situation ever arises that you ARE outgunned and outnumbered... Do what you think will keep you alive.
    Pardon me for interjecting my personal experience and how I handled it.
    So far my reactions have kept me alive in some very precarious situations though.
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,465 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    BTW the holster system you choose is critical !!! if drawing your CCW screams GUN to folks around you, that may complicate things somewhat, that is why I personally dislike strong side carry holsters, as opposed to weak side carry ie cross draw, IMHO that movement conveys information much like a dog raising it's leg to urinate, it is too obvious, you never want to make it that obvious that you are drawing a gun, no one carries their wallet strong side on their belt, hence any holster system / position that looks more like you are about to surrender a wallet gives you a better chance of survival, you may get shot anyway, perhaps not.

    That seems almost counter-intuitive. I would think that a cross-draw would be a more obvious movement for, say, a right-handed person drawing a gun holstered on their left. I get what you're saying about no one (right-handed) carrying a wallet strong side, but what could a right handed person be thought of as reaching for in a cross-draw? Seeking some knowledge here.......
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,243 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    Not kidding at all. Have you had a gun held to your temple? ... I have...
    Have you been cold cocked in the side of the face with a brick and had a few teeth chipped out while another guy held a gun?... I have..How about tied up by several guys and had a knife held to your throat?... yup I been there to.
    In all instances I did two things, showed respect, did not show fear.

    I think it's time to move to a nicer neighborhood.
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    That seems almost counter-intuitive. I would think that a cross-draw would be a more obvious movement for, say, a right-handed person drawing a gun holstered on their left. I get what you're saying about no one (right-handed) carrying a wallet strong side, but what could a right handed person be thought of as reaching for in a cross-draw? Seeking some knowledge here.......

    100% agree
    yes most dont carry your wallet strongside.
    So say your a righty and you keep your wallet in your left back pocket.
    Do you retrieve your wallet by reaching your right arm around your front to get your wallet?
    If anything I would be more suspicious of you.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    It was in reference to the restraunt scene in Pulp Fiction.

    I shoulda recognized it. But I got your drift anyway.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    If you are in a position that puts the bad guys backs to you, and they start shooting at employees or customers, do you have any moral objection to shooting them in the back?

    Er, no. This isn't a 40s cowboy movie.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    I think it's time to move to a nicer neighborhood.

    I have. I am 38 now and haven't dealt with any of that mess in 8 years.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    Not kidding at all. Have you had a gun held to your temple? ... I have...
    Have you been cold cocked in the side of the face with a brick and had a few teeth chipped out while another guy held a gun?... I have..How about tied up by several guys and had a knife held to your throat?... yup I been there to.
    In all instances I did two things, showed respect, did not show fear.

    Wow, those are some pretty intense situations! You've obviously led a somewhat dangerous existence.

    Like most of us I've been hit by someone a couple times in my life, like a drunk, sent me kettle over teacup too. I'm not a big guy. Had a gun pointed at me, too, but from about 20 feet. That did not go down well. And for somebody who's a civilian, never LEO or military, I've for some strange reason had more than my share of armed situations, maybe a half dozen total. But nothing like you describe, luckily. Whew. (the brick thing reminded me of what happened to my private eye character in my last novel -- he got broadsided just like you described)

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Wow, those are some pretty intense situations! You've obviously led a somewhat dangerous existence.

    Like most of us I've been hit by someone a couple times in my life, like a drunk, sent me kettle over teacup too. I'm not a big guy. Had a gun pointed at me, too, but from about 20 feet. That did not go down well. And for somebody who's a civilian, never LEO or military, I've for some strange reason had more than my share of armed situations, maybe a half dozen total. But nothing like you describe, luckily. Whew. (the brick thing reminded me of what happened to my private eye character in my last novel -- he got broadsided just like you described)

    Yeah the brick thing was by far the worste. All the other instances kinda had me on edge for a few days, but those happened when I was in a place kinda known for violence. The brick incident happened in a nice little suburb while I was out jogging. It also cost me a few thousand in dental work, so it still kinda ticks me off every time I think of it.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I lived in a pretty rough neighborhood, but by the time some of the local hoods tried to start with Me, I had them convinced that it was a piss poor idea at best.........
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,549 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    Frankly I could give a big brown turd wether you believe me or not.
    You are just another guy on the net to me.

    Good point, and I hope you understand that I feel the same way. I am only concerned that some very naive person might actually think that your nerves of steel are normal.
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Good point, and I hope you understand that I feel the same way. I am only concerned that some very naive person might actually think that your nerves of steel are normal.

    The naive person should probably know that a part of me was scared ****less in all the situations I listed.
    Two things always kept me level headed enough to not show my fear.
    #1. I am a Christian and have high expectations of the afterlife if I do die, so it tapers my fear slightly.
    #2. I realize the criminals dont have nerves of steel either. They are human just like me. They are scared ****less just like me. The are not only afraid of something going wrong and dying themselves, but of jail itself.
    So, I kinda figure I might as well be on their level.
    Besides, in my 38 years of living and dealing with some crazy people (including a few ex's), I've learned you can combat insanity with logic, it will drive you insane if you try.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,549 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    The naive person should probably know that a part of me was scared ****less in all the situations I listed.
    Two things always kept me level headed enough to not show my fear.
    #1. I am a Christian and have high expectations of the afterlife if I do die, so it tapers my fear slightly.
    #2. I realize the criminals dont have nerves of steel either. They are human just like me. They are scared ****less just like me. The are not only afraid of something going wrong and dying themselves, but of jail itself.
    So, I kinda figure I might as well be on their level.
    Besides, in my 38 years of living and dealing with some crazy people (including a few ex's), I've learned you can combat insanity with logic, it will drive you insane if you try.

    I am of the opinion that a person should not assume anything about the abilities or mental state of his tormentors, nor should he assume that his own thought processes will be rational under extreme stress. I have found that in some stressful situations, I am calm and fully capable of rational thought, and in others not so much.

    In all of my 'scenarios,' there is only one decision to make and commit to - whether or not to fight. Once the decision to fight is made, the details will have to be worked out based on the conditions that exist.
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