What to do when out numbered and/or out gunned

13

Replies

  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I am of the opinion that a person should not assume anything about the abilities or mental state of his tormentors, nor should he assume that his own thought processes will be rational under extreme stress. I have found that in some stressful situations, I am calm and fully capable of rational thought, and in others not so much.

    In all of my 'scenarios,' there is only one decision to make and commit to - whether or not to fight. Once the decision to fight is made, the details will have to be worked out based on the conditions that exist.

    I am afraid it's not that simple. I don't think in any instance where you are outnumbered and outgunned you have the luxury of making the decision to fight or not. In any instance where you are outnumbered and outgunned they make the decision wether you will have to fight or not.
    Again, show respect and no fear, and hopefully they make the decision not to fight you.
    Of course if you want to be a Rambo Chuck Norris go ahead and fight. Frankly I would rather avoid a fight and mentally prepare for one should it be brought upon me.
    I believe reaction can often trump action.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,552 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    Of course if you want to be a Rambo Chuck Norris go ahead and fight.

    I don't think anything I have posted suggests that I'm inclined towards choosing such a course of action. You are just changing the subject.

    On the other hand, your posts do suggest that you believe your clever mind games will 'win the day' for you in most self-defense scenarios.

    I'm only saying that the "couple of instances in my [your] life where I was outnumbered and outgunned" are not necessarily an accurate model for the average armed citizen to base his self-defense strategy upon.
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I don't think anything I have posted suggests that I'm inclined towards choosing such a course of action. You are just changing the subject.

    On the other hand, your posts do suggest that you believe your clever mind games will 'win the day' for you in most self-defense scenarios.

    I'm only saying that the "couple of instances in my [your] life where I was outnumbered and outgunned" are not necessarily an accurate model for the average armed citizen to base his self-defense strategy upon.

    You did say you make the decision to fight or not. Correct?
    Chances are if you are in such a situation, it will not be a navy seals operation that has six months of planning. At best you will have a few seconds to go about deciding how you will fight, and about 30 seconds to actually fight (since statistics show most gun fights are over in 30 seconds)
    No sir, I am not changing the subject. I would like you however to give one example where you were both outgunned and outnumbered and and made the decision to fight. Obviously IF such an occasion ever happened in your life, you must be some kind of Chuck Norris.
    If it never did occur, then you really shouldn't say you make the decision to fight.
    I have been outgunned and outnumbered on three occasions.
    In all three instances I was not afforded the luxury of making any decisions wether to fight or not. I am not saying I can get into a criminals mind, but I can try. Which in turn has afforded me more time to plan my actions if they decide to fight.
    What the heck do I know though, I have only had it happen three times.
    Since you are the voice of experience, please enlighten us on an instance when you were outnumbered and outgunned and you chose to fight.
    This should be entertaining.
  • CaptainAhabCaptainAhab Member Posts: 93 Member
    I believe reaction can often trump action.[/QUOTE]

    I vehemently disagree with that statement. By definition, action is leading and reaction is following.

    I am ex military, I have been drawn on, I do have fairly extensive knowledge of psychology. My earlier statements here were to the calm preceding the chaos; that is when subterfuge and low-profile are in order. When the proverbial stuff hits the fan, USUALLY pure agro is in order. Pretending to be dead on the battle field may possibly keep you alive, but more than likely will just get you a bullet in the temple while you lay curled in a fetal position.
    In reply to Xerxes' demand to lay down his weapons, Leonidas replied;
    "Molon Labe"..... "Come and take them!"
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,552 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    Since you are the voice of experience, please enlighten us on an instance when you were outnumbered and outgunned and you chose to fight.
    This should be entertaining.

    Like you said, I'm just some jerk on the Internet, as are you. If I did have extensive actual experience in self defense with weapons involved (I don't) and tried to lecture people on the Internet, I too would probably just come off as a poser.

    As for choosing whether or not to fight, everyone will have that option. Some folks will refuse to accept that something bad is about to happen to a perfectly innocent person, until they no longer have the option. Others will decide to act immediately, and still lose. I would hope that I would make the decision quickly, and have my wits about me enough to succeed. Once I did make the decision, I would certainly pull out all the stops to 'win.'

    But lacking that experience (thank goodness), I just pay attention to my surroundings, learn to operate my weapons as well as I can, and don't lock myself into imagining any particular scenario. Most folks don't do a heck of a lot more preparation than that, and nobody knows for sure how they will react in a self defense situation...present company excepted, of course.
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    I vehemently disagree with that statement. By definition, action is leading and reaction is following.

    I am ex military, I have been drawn on, I do have fairly extensive knowledge of psychology. My earlier statements here were to the calm preceding the chaos; that is when subterfuge and low-profile are in order. When the proverbial stuff hits the fan, USUALLY pure agro is in order. Pretending to be dead on the battle field may possibly keep you alive, but more than likely will just get you a bullet in the temple while you lay curled in a fetal position.

    That is why I said often, but not always. Take a look at the scenario posted by the OP. You are out eating when the place gets robbed.
    I am only assuming here, as I have never been in this circumstance, but the criminals attention is likely to be more on the workers and less on the patrons. I mean if I were to rob a place I would be looking where their hands are to see if they were pushing a silent alarm, scoping the cash register, watching directly who I was speaking to.
    In an instance such as this I as the patron would have more time to plan my reaction, than the criminal would have time to plan his action. So in a sense I am one step ahead.
    Now in a duel, of course action will beat reaction.
    Finally, I must say, I really dont care what people think of me when I say this.... but if I am in a restaurant eating it is not my obligation to protect the innocent. I am not a LEO, all I am obliged to protect is myself and my family.
    If I witness the cashier get her head blown off that would suck, but I will still be focused on my personal safety. I may be selfish, oh well, better to be alive and selfish than a dead wanna be hero IMO
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,552 Senior Member
    So, in other words, you might choose not to fight?
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    bisley wrote: »
    So, in other words, you might choose not to fight?

    In all likelyhood I would never chose to fight in a situation where I am outgunned and outnumbered.
    Honestly the entire time I would be doing everything I could to avoid one and try to be planning what I would do if forced to fight.

    As I said in my original post on this thread. I would try to keep my hand on my gun and eat my food.
    Only if attention was drawn to me would I make a statement about eating or anything stupid like that.
    I am not trying to be Mel Gibson.
    I am trying to divert their attention from the fact that I have my hand on a gun that I DONT WANT TO USE.
    The tactic of acting like a starving idiot may or may not work, but if I do nothing, they have more time to pay attention to my body instead of my words.
    They see my hand under the table and one of two things happens.
    I am forced to fight or forced to relinquish my gun.
    Neither is something I want to do.
    Make sense?
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,258 Senior Member
    This thread is beginning to remind me of a bunch of neighborhood mutts in a whizzing contest. Who's going to run out of pee first?

    :deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,552 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    Make sense?

    Nothing you have said has made any sense to me, but then what do I know - I haven't been in three gun fights.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,764 Senior Member
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Nothing you have said has made any sense to me, but then what do I know - I haven't been in three gun fights.

    Ok this will be my final attempt then and I am out of pee.
    A bunch of kids are in a classroom passing a note. One kid coughs real loud while another kid on the other side of the room passes the note.
    The intention is to pass a note, the cough is to distract.
    In my scenario, the intention is to have my gun ready only if neccessary, the acting like a starving idiot is the distraction.

    As I see it in the scenario the OP listed you have three options.

    #1. keep your hands visible.
    (in which case you have very little defense)

    #2. Try to be a movie hero
    (not the best option if IMO when your outnumbered)

    #3. try to have some form of defense in case the poop hit the fan
    (this would require your hand on your gun I would think since the bad guys already have guns drawn)

    I would opt for #3.

    I hope that made sense... if not, I am out of pee in this contest.
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,582 Senior Member
    I have told the tales before of when I drove a cab in a very bad part of LA in the early eighties where I had plenty of passengers in the back seat playing, displaying guns and at times pointed in my general direction, saw a bit of actual gunfire where folks unintended dropped to the ground, saw one cabbie just minutes after being shot in the back of the head point blank but never experienced, knock on wood, any violence inside my cab, well there was this very cute and eager half American Indian, half Japanesse girl I picked up once....

    I was never a victim, hard to make a living as a cabbie in that city, I was just a driver, folks from all walks of life, too many in the wrong line of work just wanted to be taken somewhere in an area where too many carried guns.

    Not every single time a gun is pulled, by one or many it means that you are in harms way, most times, at least during that time it was more a matter of either scaring me, seeing how I reacted or they where just showing their toys to someone else. First time I got white as a sheet of paper, someone I did not see got in and sat behind me and another guy pulled a gun from a hideout in the ground stuck it in his pants and sat next to me, he told where to take him and that was that, another cabbie after that tols me what was what regarding all of that stuff, just take them to where they need to be and don't mind the guns. I drove with a box cutter under my leg at all times after that thinking that if wost came to worst I could at least grab their "gun" arm with one hand and slash with he other something obviously a lot easier to think and say than to do.

    In my case it was a given that the person just wanted to throw his weight around when the guns came out or a warning not to mess with them, I am still around so I was either very lucky or maybe after a while you learn on how to read people and knew they had no plans on using them.

    One thing is for sure, they where really lousy tippers.
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,651 Senior Member
    Holy crap Batman.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "I hope that made sense... if not, I am out of pee in this contest."

    No, you have lots of solid experience getting pistol whipped and or buffaloed, and you seem to have feelings of inadequacy when you hear what others have to say, so you quip replies in a churlish and childish manner, putting down people that are prepared to defend themselves, calling them "Rambos & Chuck Norris.

    I have been in situations where I did not expect to survive, yet I did..... so much for your rant....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    "I hope that made sense... if not, I am out of pee in this contest."

    No, you have lots of solid experience getting pistol whipped and or buffaloed, and you seem to have feelings of inadequacy when you hear what others have to say, so you quip replies in a churlish and childish manner, putting down people that are prepared to defend themselves, calling them "Rambos & Chuck Norris.

    I have been in situations where I did not expect to survive, yet I did..... so much for your rant....

    Not gonna take the bait. Nice try though.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,651 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    Not gonna take the bait. Nice try though.

    Good news indeed.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    Not gonna take the bait. Nice try though.

    Obviously not since you felt the need to threaten Me via P.M.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,651 Senior Member
    Oh the Irony.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Getting back to Apex' original point, the scenario can be slightly different.

    To say "What if you've got a gun pointed at you already and you will get shot if you even bat an eye?" is like saying "Okay, you're falling off a 600 foot cliff. What do you do?" because the answer is moot.

    A slight change "What if the baddies are waving their guns around but you're not personally being targeted (yet)?" is different.

    I've not been faced with that scenario but my bottom line is "never submit" because once you submit, you are 100% at the mercy of the gunman. You're now 300 feet midway in that fall. The decision point has left you and there's no coming back.

    Anytime this invasion-type robbery occurs, you must assume that you'll end up kneeling in the back of the store with a bullet in the back of your head. That puts your chance at exactly zero.

    What you need to do is anything that changes those odds. If you manage to shoot one of the baddies, the others may turn and run (this is usually what happens). Or they may join in, return fire, and shoot you dead. At the very least, you tried.

    "Do what we say and nobody gets hurt!" may be an honest statement but it may be not. I don't trust it.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Obviously not since you felt the need to threaten Me via P.M.

    No biggie. I threaten Doc and Teach and cpj all the time via PM and then pretend my motives were pure, I deny it and blame it on a hacker.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • KENFU1911KENFU1911 Senior Member Posts: 1,052 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Oh the Irony.

    I miss SOMEGUY..........Ken
    My idea of a warning shot is when the 2nd bad guy watches his 1st buddy go down....
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,764 Senior Member
    And gekko45? Fun times!
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Obviously not since you felt the need to threaten Me via P.M.

    I didnt threaten you, I made a proposition. One you were free to accept or not. There is a big difference. You claimed I felt inadequate, I simply intended to show that is not at all how I feel.
    The invitation is always there as well.
    Here is the message, and I thought it was rather friendly, and placed in private message to keep more crap out of this thread.
    Chevelle wrote:
    first thing is first
    A question was asked, I gave my response.
    Who belittled who first?
    oh thats right several belittled me.
    Funny that on a topic put in "self defense" I was not allowed to "defend" myself in your opinion.
    Secondly, isn't it funny that you chose to do that which you claimed me guilty of and start more crap on the forum.
    Thirdly, and finally, in regards to my feelings of inadequacy.
    I live in lake city, fl... pick a place half way between your home and mine and we can meet like two gentlemen then and determine who is more inadequate :)
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,050 Senior Member
    Oh boy, a willie-measuring contest!
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    I didnt threaten you, I made a proposition. One you were free to accept or not. There is a big difference. You claimed I felt inadequate, I simply intended to show that is not at all how I feel.
    The invitation is always there as well.
    Here is the message, and I thought it was rather friendly, and placed in private message to keep more crap out of this thread.
    Hmmm... You remind me of myself, saying stupid things when you initially mean something totally different, coming off wrong, getting PO'd easily that others dont believe you.... etc. You also claim to be Christian as I am, which I personally don't make the best example of myself with. My point, not being sarcastic (really,) tone it down bud. Not one person here is bad company and it took me a while to figure out when I was new here. You just gotta remember that personal opinions always vary and everybody does and experiences things differently.
  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    Hmmm... You remind me of myself, saying stupid things when you initially mean something totally different, coming off wrong, getting PO'd easily that others dont believe you.... etc. You also claim to be Christian as I am, which I personally don't make the best example of myself with. My point, not being sarcastic (really,) tone it down bud. Not one person here is bad company and it took me a while to figure out when I was new here. You just gotta remember that personal opinions always vary and everybody does and experiences things differently.

    Your probably right, the disagreement with my opinion of others really didn't bother me much. I figured some didnt understand and others just had an opposite opinion. That other guy kinda got me with the "feelings of inadequacy" bit.. The way I figure others were attacking my opinion and thats cool. Attacking a man's character is another thing. Had he responded though, I wasn't thinking "oh lets meet in a back alley" I was actually thinking more on the lines of meeting first at a range to test our gun skills, then usually boxing gyms will let you use their facilities for a day if you are out of town for a small fee.
    Honestly I was waiting first to see if he even replied. I read through most of his posts and found him to be a trouble maker who probably has a bigger bark than a bite.
    I will just use the ignore feature I guess, lest he annoys me again.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,258 Senior Member
    Good grief- - - -another keyboard Rambo!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,651 Senior Member
    I'm thinking a few folks here have special shoes.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    I'm thinking a few folks here have special shoes.

    Is Gall's having a special on ballistic trauma plates?
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.