advice on "patrol rifles" for LEOs, brands, types, pros, cons

samzhere

In my new novel I'd like some good authentic advice on what sort of "patrol rifles" the LEOS might carry, both regular street cops and the heavier, more specialist SWAT people. I'd also like some suggestions for what "long gun" (even it it's compact) that my private eye might carry in his car.

The term "patrol rifle" is generally taken nowdays to be a non-hunting rifle, specially designed for military or LEOs, that the average modern cop might carry in his patrol car along with, say, a shotgun.

We can have 2 general types, I guess, "submachine guns" (firing pistol ammo) and "machine guns" firing rifle ammo. And I admit to real lack of knowledge here, whether most regular LEOs (say, Texas/Houston jurisdictions) can carry full auto (switch selectable) or only semi-auto.

And for sure, my private eye will only be carrying semi-auto.

Nevertheless the models and brands and calibers might be the same. You guys who are AR fans aren't likely to have full auto weapons but other than that, your "build" is every bit as potent as our troops could carry.

So, a few general suggestions with these small limitations:

What my PI might carry in his car in a special lockbox. It would be 1-top quality, 2-semiauto, 3-very compact, 4-could use pistol ammo or rifle ammo, you choose. 5-no, he's not a gun hobbyist, so he won't "build" his AR-type gun but his friendly local gunsmith could do the build.

Aside from being fairly compact, this PI's "patrol gun" would be very similar to what you guys enjoy working with. He'll want however something more compact, if just for the story line idea where he temporarily conceals it under his jacket. Understand, he's not the Punisher.

And for a second choice, what sort of "patrol rifle" might his cop buddy carry? It would be larger, maybe higher caliber, and full-auto selectable. Aside from a full-blown customized sniper rifle, what would the very well-armed SWAT officer want to have in hand?

What is my goal? To make the book sound authentic without conducting a clinic in AR customization, being sort of mid-level in tech details. I want to be more detailed than simply saying "... he got out his MP5..." but not so tech-heavy as "... he got out his AR93-J15-PXX with Michelson adaptive receiver and custom Jurgenson sights, Conway stocks.... etc"

So let's have some fun with this but still give me some good gun models that I can track down on the internet and make a realistic selection.

shotgunshooter3

Seems like the most bread and butter answer would be an M4-style AR-15. Collapsible stock, etc... If he doesn't shoot that often I'd personally have him throw an optic on it, a mid level Aimpoint or EOTech perhaps, with backup iron sights.

Any reputable brand, since he's not a builder, would do. Bushmaster, RRA, Armalite, etc. Heck, you could even have him choose Armalite or RRA and say it was because "X" agency or LE group chose it. But I definitely think an AR carbine fits the bill for what you're looking for Sam.

NCFUBAR

LEO and SWAT ... too bad there's not somebody on the board that handles weapons for a LARGE CITY or is there?

As to Mitch, whatever his semi-auto handgun is have him a AR SBR or AR pistol in the same cailber (they have 9mm, .40SW and evena few .45ACP ones), he doesn't need to jump through hoops like us regular people so even make it internally suppressed! There's the H&K MP5 SD line that could have a retractable stock and is internally suppressed. Either of those 2 would be easy under a duster but kinda hard under a sport coat. When you get smaller and in the machine pistol areas I only can think Uzi Steyr and MAC.

Teach

At one time, I had most of the Nashville Tennessee Metro PD SWAT team in a night auto body repair class that I taught. It started with one or two of them enrolled, and over the course of the next two years, very few of the classes I taught had less than three of them as students. They were rough on their personal cars, plus a couple of them had muscle car restorations going. Practically all of them used select-fire AR variants of some type as their primary patrol rifle. A couple of them had tricked-out Remington 700's in hard cases, but it was not uncommon for a guy to pull into the shop, open his trunk, and set a big duffle bag out on the floor so he could get to his hammers, bondo, and sandpaper. He didn't have to say "Don't mess with it!" We probably had the safest classroom in the school system at those times.
Jerry

DoctorWho

I second the M-4 / AR-15 type rifle, and the various mission specific calibers it can use just by swapping uppers and magazines.

breamfisher

As far as patrol rifles go, you can have LMT, Colt, HK, Daniel Defense, Rock River, Stag (especially if they're a lefty), Wilson Combat, Smith & Wesson, Armalite, maybe Bushmaster, DPMS, and some others. But generally all some sort of quality AR-15, maybe a carbine with sliding stock, with an Aimpoint or Eotech sight, sling, weapon light, and maybe a foregrip.

Rarely do LEO's use full-auto. They're responsible for EVERY round that they fire, so the need for "suppressing fire" out of an automatic is unlikely, and usually superfluous. I know of a few state agencies that use blocked AR's so that the full-auto capability is not there.

For the submachine gun, an HK MP5 is pretty universal.

For the personal weapon, an AR pistol with a single-point sling is pretty good. Carry it with a 20-rd. magazine, the sling looped over one shoulder, and when he pulls it out, he pushes forward on the pistol, giving support. The 20-rd. mag allows for a little lower profile.

bruchi

Check this out...223 in a very small package, others here can suggest you the best defense ammo for this particular barrel length and a 7.62 x 39 version is also available if we are talking about more punch and usage at shorter ranges, full auto is doable too.

http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=263&idcategory=15

It ought to do well at "urban situations" ranges...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h034rteEsLE

Jeeper

Most agencies in this area approve only either Colt or RRA for their AR-15's. *Most* LEO's have to provide their own, but a few agencies provide them.

Luis

Lerchess

The era that your characters work in will be the key here. These days, a vast majority of police who actually have rifles will have AR15s. Brand names will vary quite a bit depending on budget, how much their purchaser really cares, and which factory rep was the smoothest - mostly it comes down to money.

Most are the carbine types, but some LEOs take advantage of the government surplus and carry ye olde M16A1s/2s.

In SWAT, that can range quite a bit. I would say at least half have AR's, but there is a good selection of HK MP5s, UMPs, 33s, 416s, etc. Those two platforms I would venture cover at least 90% of police non specialized long gunnery.

For your PI, give him a FN FS2000 - compact and unusual. Or one of those Para Ordnance AR's, that new Colt SBR that has a weird folding collapsing stock, or a HK MP7. Better still, give him a Knights PDW.

Lerchess

Jeeper wrote: »

Most agencies in this area approve only either Colt or RRA for their AR-15's. *Most* LEO's have to provide their own, but a few agencies provide them.

Luis

This has branched out quite a bit in the last ten years. The county I used to work for issues DPMS (budget), but just about every manufacturer is represented somewhere along the way. Colt has been used by a lot of agencies that I know of. And S&W ARs are beginning to gain a lot of momentum in the LE field as well.

Bigslug

The .223 AR-15 platform has all but totally replaced the pistol caliber carbine/SMG in modern law enforcement. It's got more reach, does better against body armor, does a better job of incapacitating felons, and is less of an overpenetration hazard due to lightweight bullets that lack the sturdiness and momentum of a heavy pistol slug. You'll still see the SMG's with suppressors for special tasks like breaking street lights or taking out guard dogs prior to a SWAT entry, but it's rarely the primary tool these days.

Full-auto and short barrel stuff is most likely going to be purchased either by an agency or by the serious gun nuts within an agency, simply because non-enthusiasts won't want to deal with the ATF paperwork. Figure your guys are going to be rolling with 16" barreled, semi-auto, collapsible-stock, M4-type civilian-market carbines.

I always recommend that my officers buy Colts, simply because it's the only true assembly of mil-spec rated components you can get, because only Colt and FN possess the actual mil-specs. Aside from that, they've been making the gun the longest, and have the benefit of instant feedback from Uncle Sam on what needs to be improved. Not that the other stuff on the market are bad guns, but the ones that give us trouble at the range typically don't have little horses stamped on the side.

Two models of Colt's "Law Enforcement Carbine" come to mind - the LE6920 is basically an M4 with the barrel stretched 1.5" to make the 16" federal law spec and no full-auto parts. It has the fixed front sight and removable carry handle.

The LE6940 is the newer, more "tacti-cool" version. Folding sights front and rear make it more readily-adapted to optics and the new "monolithic" upper receiver incorporates the rail system - the 9:00, 12:00, and 3:00 rails are the same piece of aluminum as the upper. The 6:00 rail is removable to allow attachment of any M203 grenade launchers you happen to have laying around.

shotgunshooter3

Here's a thought, Sam... You could always ask a friendly local Houston PD LEO who's walking/patrolling around. Then, you can write into your book that Mitch uses "X" rifle made by "Y" company because the local PD uses and relies on it, so he figures it works pretty well.

This is subject to change once I read your f book (probably next week) and get a better feel for your character.

mkk41

An old-school rural Texas or Western sherriff who packs a .357/.41/.44 magnum D/A sixgun could likely have a like calibered Marlin 1894 lever-action carbine in his vehicle. Some might even have a 30-30 Win 94. Ruger had that semi-auto .44 mag carbine , but it only held 4 shots I think. Marlin had those 'Camp Carbines' in 9mm and .45. They took S&W 9mm double stack and Colt 1911 mags. They weren't very expensive and many small town/small budget PDs bought them.

I'd bet if any of those cops in the LA bank shoot-out had a carbine , even in their pistol calibers , they coulda taken a headshot and ended that mess sooner.

Eli

Give Mitch an MSAR (microtech small arms research) 556.

It is based off of the old Styer AUG design. Being a bull-pup design (firing mechanism in the "stock" part of the gun) is considerably shorter than any AR-15 variant. And the new version takes AR magazines, so he could borrow spare mags from a patrol officer if it came down to it.




Here is one with a completely legal 16" barrel, compared to an HK 416 with an sbr length barrel.




Throw a red dot optic of some sort on there, and you've got the perfect little hide-out rifle.

Gene L

Our patrol rifles were Mini 14s. Not the best, but the best we could afford. Times were hard, and still are. They were marginally more expensive than SKSs back when we bought them.

Our troops shot them well at 75 yards placing all rounds in the chest of a target. Not sniper accuracy, but it sure as hell beat doing it with a Glock. Pistol/rifle ammo shouldn't be a consideration. Pistol rounds have a poor performance record at rifle ranges.

Bigslug

A bit of an aside, but let's not discount the good old patrol shotgun's place in all of this.

Shotguns aren't "cool" and they aren't "SWATtish" (at least not until you do ATF paperwork for a 14" barrel). One must be aware that there's a certain cool hair, cool shades, cool toys mindset that CAN creep in amongst the operators, which can have them looking down their noses at the standard patrol gear - - HOWEVER, there will be certain veterans who have gotten past the fashion statements and understand that at the 75 yards and less that most police altercations occur at, it's really hard to top a .72 caliber, one ounce deer slug, and that few things will turn the vertical and active into horizontal and inert as rapidly as 540 grains of buckshot. Patrol rifles programs have grown out of response to active shooter scenarios like Columbine and North Hollywood, and the AR is the ideal gun for that. But for the other 95% of what the boys in blue do, the shotgun is the better tool.

Could be a topic of discussion anyway.

Gene L

Lots of patrol persons can't handle a one ounce slug with any degree of accuracy. I would say MOST can't. Although they're fine for dedicated shooters, they're not for everyone. Plus shotguns with sights cost almost as much as rifles.

I'm not a fan of shotguns for patrol. Especially in urban situations. Slugs ricochet, and buckshot ricochets and isn't reliable past 25 yards. We have them but I think the troops prefer the .223.

Personally, I never carried a shotgun on close enounter situations. I don't trust them to do the job.

BPsniper

Subguns are so........90s. They are fading like smoke in the wind. Only those who can't afford to replace the ones they have are still using them for the most part. Short barrel carbines have replaced the subgun. Same size mostly and better ballistics with less over penetration through things you don't want penetrated. I would give your SWAT guys a short barrel AR. Your patrol cops a standard AR and your PI a shotgun. Shotguns are awesome! With slugs, of course. Buckshot sucks at anything past big room distance. Yeah, yeah, it'll work to 30 yards or so, but it drops off exponentially around that mark. Give your guy a pump shotgun with 18" barrel and extension tube loaded with slugs and he will be Hell on wheels.

samzhere

General reply: THANKS! You guys are the best! You understood perfectly what I was asking for and offered some good suggestions.

I'm leaning toward a .223 cal compact semi-auto AR-15 style w. folding stock, maybe a scope. My PI isn't going to war and so any reasonable compact rifle will be fine. I'll roam thru the suggestions a bit and then research them, and come back later with a couple of final choices.

Understand this isn't some end of the world decision here, it's fiction after all, but I still want it to be correct and give the accurate model type, caliber, etc. As I've said before, this isn't a Stephen Hunter type "gun" book but I still want to list the right stuff that makes sense for a modern urban PI to carry.

How this is working out: in my 1st book Blood Spiral, he's got a S&W compact 9mm and then later uses a big wheelgun, but there aren't a lot of gunfights. In the 2nd book Blood Storm, he's moved up to a compact 1911 .45 as his primary carry and that serves him just fine.

However, in the 3rd novel, Blood Turf (now being sketched out as you can see), Mitch gets unwillingly between two rival cartels in a coke war, and gunfire escalates rapidly. So he goes into his gunsafe and digs out the heavy stuff (heavy stuff for him). So for this, I want him to have a top quality, reliable, compact combat style rifle, probably .223. Mitch has a few bucks in the bank and he's only buying one gun here, so a pricey HK or Steyr or similar brand would do the trick.

He's not Rambo and he knows he's outgunned against a cartel anyway, but he still wants a good weapon that's hotter than a .45 pistol. And he'll be getting plenty of help from an unexpected source, too. But I don't want to spill the plot.

The idea here is to give Mitch a realistic, modern weapon that any modern PI might choose. I'll mention the specifics once, while he's shooting it at the range with his pals, then maybe once more, and it's done. After all, details of what AR-type rifle he owns or what new SUV he buys are minor compared with the huge overall plot sequences on this new 3rd book, stuff like which new characters to introduce, who gets laid by whom, who gets killed by whom, and so on. ha ha

Again, all these suggestions are right on track. After I narrow the choice to a few good ones, I'll go to my gun shop buddies and actually get a feel for the weapons, then list the final two possibles here again, just for some final feedback. Thanks!

Btw, the first hard copies of my 1st novel were shipped out yesterday to me (I get a box of them as part of my contract, they should be here Monday).

breamfisher

Sam, just an FYI: if you're going to go with a standard or carbine AR-15, the rifle can't have a folding stock. The stock can collapse, but not fold, due to the rifle's design, and the fact that the bolt/carrier group has to recoil back into the buffer tube (that's what's inside the stock, and what he collapsible stock slides on). Now, if you go with a piston design or something exotic, you can have a folding stock, as the bolt/carrier group can be modified to be shorter, and you can block off the rear of the receiver.

However, most piston designs still use a standard stockset.

samzhere

Thanks for the detail, bream. That's the sort if info I need in order for the weapon to look authentic. And I'll scout out some actual firearms during the procedure.

breamfisher

No worries, Sam. I know you don't have an AR, and was unsure of your experience level.

A Ruger Mini-14 offers the same chambering as an AR, but can be had with a folding stock. That's the rifle the A-Team used in the series, by the way.

Bigslug

One of the things that could drive you batty from writing fiction including AR platforms is how they are outfitted and accessorized. The AR platform now has almost a 60 year history behind it. In 'Nam you'll have triangular forends, skinny barrels, and pronged flash suppressors, and your "fashion accessories" will include OD green, tigerstripes, and Hueys. In Desert Storm, you'll have round handguards, early Trijicon ACOG scopes, and chocolate-chip camo. Somewhat afterwards, you'll start to see flat top receivers, and sometime around the late '90's/early 2000's, the carbines really started getting popular.

So where a gun nut might have something totally current for the period the novel is written, somebody like Mitch probably would have gotten what seemed like the hot ticket at the time, set it up with whatever accessories were available and appropriate to his anticipated uses, and chucked it into the safe against future need. So consider how long he's had it. It's probably thoroughly practical, but probably not bleeding edge in terms of add-ons.

When we get newbie officers in our rifle program they invariably ask about the bits of gear they can attach, and I frequently joke with them that Eugene Stoner didn't design a five pound rifle just so you could bolt twenty pounds of crap to it. You need good iron sights you can see and a sling with which to carry the rifle. A flashlight with which to ID threats and highlight your sights would be the final item we might consider a "need". Mission-appropriate red-dot sights or low-powered optics can be helpful, but can also be seen as that extra piece of gear to clean, keep correctly adjusted, or feed batteries to that some individuals won't want to mess with. While some less dedicated shooters like a bipod, it's really just extra weight on a weapon that's SUPPOSED to be light and manuverable, and you really don't need it for the short 200 yards and (much) less of typical patrol rifle deployments. Our group of instructors includes a number of Highpower competitors and former military types who know from experience that the basic, unadorned weapon is good for 500 yards, and theirs are some of the plainer guns in the program.

So it comes down to when did Mitch buy it, how hard does he train, what did he plan for, and how much of a gadget-boy is he?

(Damn! That got long!)

samzhere

Good points, Big, and thanks for the excellent background info. I'm not gonna get Mitch into a tussle match regarding all the AR goodies, as I know there are thousands of 'em, and this will just muddle up the plot for no real effect. I'm going to find a good quality, ready-to-go AR-type rifle and Mitch will buy it brand new, take it to the range, let his cop pal Meierhoff tease him about it, and lock it up till needed.

As I said, I'm not conducting a clinic on accessories for the AR. When Mitch goes home and, for example, turns on the TV, I don't intend to describe the remote function and the brand of the TV, resolution, size, sound system. He is just trying to catch the news. When he goes to buy a new sport jacket, I don't plan to describe the diameter of the buttons, their color, the thread count of the fabric, etc.

All I want Mitch to do is to go shopping at his fave gunstore for a new "assault rifle" (ha ha) and buy one, maybe add a recommended small scope. I do of course want the weapon description to be accurate (which is why I'm consulting you guys) but I'm not writing an owner's manual. Then, sometime down the road, he'll retrieve his HK (or whatever) from his car's lockbox and blow the bad guy's eye out, something cool like that. It's just a way to hype the action. Mitch would ordinarily never need something that powerful or with that range, but caught between two drug cartels (not an event of his choosing), he's got to up the ante. And even though Mitch does get help, things do not, as you might assume, end well.

Bigslug

Well then, there's the KISS principle ( http://www.colt.com/law/ar15a2.asp ) which is super light weight but somewhat awkward to attach optics to due to the fixed carry handle. Sounds like Mitch is not really going to be using the thing enough to get to know optics anyway. This would be a good, minimal moving parts option for the guy who's going to buy it, then nearly forget he did so.

Then the very slightly less KISS option ( http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp ) which has the removable carry handle simplifying optics mounting, but requires the purchase of a folding backup sight to do it proper.

Then for the guy who KNOWS he wants optics ( http://www.colt.com/law/downloads/LE6940_Flyer.pdf ) both sights fold, and you have rails galore.

Figure if Mitch IS going to mount a modern combat optic, some of the Aimpoint red-dots would appeal to him in that the functional battery life is practically forever - and you can still look through them to use the irons if the batteries DO die.

Sounds to me like he'd be a no-scope, no-flashlight, factory 2-point sling sort simply because his anticipated need is extremely minimal. Probably will be along the line of one mag in the rifle, one more jammed in a back pocket, and a belt-carried Surefire activated by pressing the tailcap against the front of the mag-well if he needs to illuminate anything while shooting at it.

Jeeper

Gene L wrote: »

Personally, I never carried a shotgun on close enounter situations. I don't trust them to do the job.

:rotflmao: :spittingcoffee: :popcorn:

Luis

gunrunner428

Bigslug wrote: »

A bit of an aside, but let's not discount the good old patrol shotgun's place in all of this.

I'm with Bigslug. Haven't read your books YET, Sam, but for a big-city cop shotgun... I've got a Mossberg catalog detailing the new-issue NYC cruiser shogun that would fit the bill for the SWAT-ish or patrol LEOs to drag out when the fur flies. Class III weapon - 14" barrel 590 6-shot magazine, equipped with Mossberg's SpeedFeed stock (two small "magazines" - one worked in on each side of the buttstock, each holds two extra rounds), and with department-requested 3-dot sights brazed to the barrel to approximate the sight picture of the standard-issue Glock pistols.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26&section=products# [click on the "more models" arrow a few times to the picture just after the first silver-colored "Mariner" shotgun, item #52682] This is the shotgun, the NYC issue version will have a barrel with the muzzle ending flush with the end of the magazine cap. Of course, your hero could get into the civilian-legal version shown here, or any other variant of the 590 (is he a military vet? The U.S. issued the 9 shot 590, parkerized, as a combat shotgun for some time, still in service if I'm correct.)

Of course, a Remington 870 would work just as well, and could be shown as "civilian" with a wood stock, with options to consider for any shotgun including the Side-Saddle shell carrier, sling (really makes it handy to free your hands when the shooting's done, for instance).

To go with a LEO cruiser carbine, the M4/shorty AR-15 is really the only way to go IMO. Especially if he's not into getting anything "whiz-bang fancy" like a folding-stock H&K G-36 (difficult to come by outside of LE and military circles) or an AUG spin-off. Those others are COOL, but not really in the realm of your ordinary PI. I also like the Mini-14 idea, especially if he happens to get one that shoots WELL, to the surprise and chagrin of his LEO and AR-devotee friends...

billy396

Steyr is starting to build the AUG in the U.S. now. Since the MSAR is no longer available, I'd go with the real thing. The AUG was tested every which way, and they couldn't break it. They drove over the weapon with a Duece and a half, and it still worked perfectly.

Eli wrote: »

Give Mitch an MSAR (microtech small arms research) 556.

It is based off of the old Styer AUG design. Being a bull-pup design (firing mechanism in the "stock" part of the gun) is considerably shorter than any AR-15 variant. And the new version takes AR magazines, so he could borrow spare mags from a patrol officer if it came down to it.




Here is one with a completely legal 16" barrel, compared to an HK 416 with an sbr length barrel.




Throw a red dot optic of some sort on there, and you've got the perfect little hide-out rifle.

Jayhawker

Wow! This one was REALLY brought back from the dead....

kmeiersks

I think he may have bought that rifle by now...:deadhorse:

Bigslug

Edit - seems I already responded way back in the dawn of time.