S.P.D.S. (Smallbore Personal Defense Shotgun)

245

Replies

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,255 Senior Member
    Yes, the new handle seems to be very appropriate. We welcome all opinions here, even laughably wrong ones.
    :roll2::roll2::roll2:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Deadmanwalking2012Deadmanwalking2012 Banned Posts: 19 New Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Not hardly, the .410 slug is still marginal performance wise..... better off with a .45-70 lever action rifle.

    Edited to add, the .410 has its uses, like the correct golf club, it has proper uses, I could want a matched pair of SxS shotguns in .410, longish barrels CCH sidelock and curly maple stock etc.......

    Not for personal defense......

    Which is why the Federal '000' buck loads are my pick,said loading offers very good energy to payload ratio with the 2-1/2 inch shells (plus the arm can be loaded to full capacity,in this case 6,though I do cheat a bit and keep the chamber loaded with a 3-inch #4 buck shell,with the magazine tube loaded with the 2-1/2 inch '000' buck)
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    What firearm are you using ??
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Deadmanwalking2012Deadmanwalking2012 Banned Posts: 19 New Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    What firearm are you using ??

    A Mossberg Model 500E (50104 Field model) with an 18.5 inch fixed cylinder choke barrel.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Stuff like this makes my head hurt.

    You are completely wrong this time, for the same reasons that you were completely wrong last time.

    There, that's a lot less complicated that re-explaining everything that was said last time you brought this up. :up:
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,736 Senior Member
    The reason the .410 is loaded to such anemic levels is because it suffers the same fate as the .45/70. Lots of 100+ year old guns out there that can't handle the pressure of a truly modern loading. A trapdoor Springfield would fly apart in splinters if loaded with a top end load that was meant for a Ruger #1. (In fact, ALL shotgun gauges suffer the same limiting factor in the standard length shotshells that fit the old guns.)

    The .410 loadings are all in the 9,000 to 13,000 psi level. Modern actions could stand substantially more pressure, but the old actions limit the loadings available. The slug loads are 1/5 oz. but shot loads for 3" shells go to 11/16 oz. Seems to me a lot of wasted available payload taken up by wadding. If someone would bring out a 5/8 oz. fin stabilized slug load for the .410 at 20,000 psi, it would at least take it to a whole different level. Such fin stabilized slugs are available in 12 and 20 ga. but not the .410. (At least loadings I'm aware of for the .410.)
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,942 Senior Member
    You do know that not every problem can be handled that way right? (I'm not saying that heavier slugs are a no go) but the real problem with .410 slugs stem from (more often than not) being fired through a full choke barrel.

    My issue here is that given the choice of the whole range of defensive firearm options, I see little reason to spend money on what would be the equivalent of a reduced capacity .38 Special lever action rifle. The big shotgun rounds are harder hitters, there are youth/ladies version of them that are lighter weight, and pistol-caliber autoloading carbines will give the same or better ballistic capability with more ammunition and faster reloads.

    Even if slug loads like I alluded to in my last post were available, you've still got a pony with a limited number of tricks. While you'd have a pretty sweet CQB and short range hunting rig, it would still have all the small shot charge limitations of the .410 when using pellets.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    A Mossberg Model 500E (50104 Field model) with an 18.5 inch fixed cylinder choke barrel.

    Now, what advantage does a Mossberg 500E .410 bore offer vs. a Mossberg 500 Persuader like mine in 12 gauge ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Deadmanwalking2012Deadmanwalking2012 Banned Posts: 19 New Member
    Eli wrote: »
    Stuff like this makes my head hurt.

    You are completely wrong this time, for the same reasons that you were completely wrong last time.

    There, that's a lot less complicated that re-explaining everything that was said last time you brought this up. :up:

    Care to explain or are you just going to continue spouting popular opinion regardless of fact?
  • Deadmanwalking2012Deadmanwalking2012 Banned Posts: 19 New Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Now, what advantage does a Mossberg 500E .410 bore offer vs. a Mossberg 500 Persuader like mine in 12 gauge ?

    Lighter weight,lower recoil,a better family use shotgun,ammunition can be shared with a handgun in the same caliber,plus more .410 ammunition can be carried for the same weight as 12 or 20 gauge shells,the smaller payloads also means a lower risk of stray pellets hitting something/someone that you don't want to hit.

    Faster follow up shots (if needed) can be put on target than with the larger gauges.
  • farm boyfarm boy Senior Member Posts: 987 Senior Member
    Lighter weight,lower recoil,a better family use shotgun,ammunition can be shared with a handgun in the same caliber,plus more .410 ammunition can be carried for the same weight as 12 or 20 gauge shells,the smaller payloads also means a lower risk of stray pellets hitting something/someone that you don't want to hit.

    Faster follow up shots (if needed) can be put on target than with the larger gauges.

    Yawn.


    The .410 is only good for rats, that's it. Rats inside 10 yards.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,659 Senior Member
    Care to explain or are you just going to continue spouting popular opinion regardless of fact?
    We've already explained it to you once, you got PO'd and banned because you didn't like our explanations, so why should we waste our time explaining ourselves again
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Tugar wrote: »
    I won't trust my life to one unless the other option is a pointy stick.

    Would said pointy stick be one up on the standard weight hockey stick in use now?
    If so, what gauge stick would you recommend? What length to maximise its full potential? Should I spraypaint it copper wash colour, to improve its penetration and weight?

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • Deadmanwalking2012Deadmanwalking2012 Banned Posts: 19 New Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Fact is, it would work. Fact is, a 20 or 12 gauge would be better.
    Your "being able to carry more ammo because they are lighter is bullcrap. Just how many do you intend on carrying? Would a full magazine(could be up to nine) plus rounds on a sling or side saddle (another 5-10rounds) nt ne enough to defend your home? Of course, having more rounds on tap when you have a low lowered weapon may be a valid point...

    If you think it's so low powered why not test it out?

    Or

    Are you afraid that you'll just end up being wrong about this?
  • Deadmanwalking2012Deadmanwalking2012 Banned Posts: 19 New Member
    shush wrote: »
    Would said pointy stick be one up on the standard weight hockey stick in use now?
    If so, what gauge stick would you recommend? What length to maximise its full potential? Should I spraypaint it copper wash colour, to improve its penetration and weight?

    And you have what to add to this discussion? .....oh thats right you have nothing to add and instead wanted to be part of the group.
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,458 Senior Member
    And you have what to add to this discussion? .....oh thats right you have nothing to add and instead wanted to be part of the group.

    Funny part is, he has added about as much as you have. Personally, if you feel that you can trust you and your family's life with your confidence in a .410, go for it. You are not going to change our minds on this one. I don't see what argument you are bringing to the table. You say that you can carry more ammo. Well, I promise you, you won't carry more than my AR which is my bedside weapon of choice. I can tell you that my setup has been proven many times over. And you aren't going to carry more rounds with your .410 than I will need with my 12ga should I change it out as my bedside gun.

    Let me guess, you keep the chamber dry so you can scare an intruder away with the sound of the slide racking....
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,244 Senior Member
    To recap all the arguments that were used the last time this was discussed and then banned.......

    How much ammo do you need to carry, are you taking a .410 on patrol?
    12 guage is the standard for self defense at home, why go less than the standard?
    yes 12 guage does kick, so what, I learned to shoot using a 12 guage, I was 11, man up and try it,
    if I have to go down in power from my 12 guage shotgun, then I will use a .45 acp, or a 9mm, or a .357, etc.etc.etc.
    Why don't I test it for myself? Why do I need to buy a gun I do not want to try out something that I have already surpassed with the equipment I already own?
    If the .410 rings your bell, Great! Live it up! Please just give up on trying to convince everyone else what a great idea it is!
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    And you have what to add to this discussion? .....oh thats right you have nothing to add and instead wanted to be part of the group.

    Oh! You are a sensitive soul, don’t get your knickers in a twist.:chill:
    Stop faffing around debating nonsensical ideas.
    You use what you can, if you can use bigger, you use bigger.
    Or, LISTEN, you use what you have.
    For me, where I am, it is what I have said.
    For you, where you are …….GO BIGGER!!!!!:wink:

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    The real question that I feel the need to ask is why all the hostility toward the .410?

    Because they can and will.
    It wouldn't matter if you had your home fortified with these
    aefc9af4-3226-f53e.jpgand people would find a way to criticize.
    If your comfortable with a .410 for SD thats all that matters.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,736 Senior Member
    Back last year when I was finished with a rebuild of the floor in the hall, I had some app. 1 foot lengths of treated pine 6" x 6" left over from the project. I'd bought some of the Russian steel cased 3" .410 slugs about that time and tested a few against the still saturated-with-treatment pieces of wood. The slugs did not fully penetrate the piece of 6" x 6" wood. Same shot with a 12 ga. and a Foster slug grenaded another of the pieces of wood into splinters. Distance from muzzle to wood was 5 yards.

    That's one of the reasons I have a 12 ga. with an 8 shot magazine loaded with slugs for HD. While a .410 might work, I know that the 12 ga. WILL work. Dimensioned lumber and newspaper/magazines are cheap. Test what you have against it and see how it fares.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Funny part is, he has added about as much as you have.

    I say steady on, one could take offence.:tissue:
    At least I added a bit of humour, I think.:tooth:

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • ChevelleChevelle Banned Posts: 67 Member
    These are just my two cents.

    If it is all you have, it is better than nothing. Yes there are bigger and better, but no matter how much you invest in gun collection there will always be bigger and better.
    If the OP of this thread is anything like me or many other gun owners, he will likely buy bigger and better. And when he does, we will read all about it on here. And, of course, most of the critics will rip it apart, because thats what they do.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Lighter weight

    It's a home defense gun, weight isn't even a consideration.

    a better family use shotgun,

    If someone in my family is using a shotgun to defend their lives, I'd want them to be using a shotgun that's actually effective at stopping a threat. With a bit of practice anybody that can physically lift a shotgun can learn to run it pretty well.

    ,ammunition can be shared with a handgun in the same caliber...

    Not going to mince words or throw out possible acceptable scenarios on this one......if you are using a .410 handgun as a defensive piece, for anything other than really close snakes......you are an idiot.

    plus more .410 ammunition can be carried for the same weight as 12 or 20 gauge shells.....

    As stated, this is a home defense gun, how much ammo are you going to be "carrying"? And where are you carrying it to?

    ,the smaller payloads also means a lower risk of stray pellets hitting something/someone that you don't want to hit.....

    The smaller payload means that the projectiles might not even penetrate the BG deep enough to do what you intended them to. Also, if you are making plans that revolve around you MISSING your target, you need to put in some serious range time. I'm not saying that you won't miss, highly trained SWAT teams and other "operators" (god, I hate that word) miss their intended targets all the time, but if you are limiting your equipment, because of your limited confidence in your ability to put the rounds where they need to go........get to the range, man!

    Faster follow up shots (if needed) can be put on target than with the larger gauges.

    My two HD shotguns are a Benelli M1 Super 90 and a Remington 870. I (as well as just about everybody else who has shot it.......even small girls) can put 8 rounds onto a silhouette in between 2 and 5 seconds. How much faster do you need to be?

    My 870 is a bit slower, but that's because it's a pump shotgun, not because of the recoil. The front sight (bead in this case) is brought back onto the target by the racking of the pump, not the recovery from recoil. The speed of a pump gun (such as your Mossberg 500E) is dependent entirely on how fast you can get another shell into the chamber.

    Basically if you can get another shell into the chamber faster than you can recover from the recoil of ANY gun, be it a .22 Winchester pump action rifle or a 10 gauge turkey gun, you are working with a different set of physics than everybody else.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,255 Senior Member
    Haven't we played this silly game before?
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,244 Senior Member
    Yes we have, possibly with the same person.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    I had a SPDS once. A round of painful shots in an unmentionable place and it was cured.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,891 Senior Member
    Chevelle wrote: »
    Because they can and will.
    It wouldn't matter if you had your home fortified with these
    aefc9af4-3226-f53e.jpgand people would find a way to criticize.
    If your comfortable with a .410 for SD thats all that matters.
    For a guy with a low post count, you have these guys figured out very well. I wanted to post something like this, but, you beat me to it.:up:
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • Deadmanwalking2012Deadmanwalking2012 Banned Posts: 19 New Member
    Funny part is, he has added about as much as you have. Personally, if you feel that you can trust you and your family's life with your confidence in a .410, go for it. You are not going to change our minds on this one. I don't see what argument you are bringing to the table. You say that you can carry more ammo. Well, I promise you, you won't carry more than my AR which is my bedside weapon of choice. I can tell you that my setup has been proven many times over. And you aren't going to carry more rounds with your .410 than I will need with my 12ga should I change it out as my bedside gun.

    Let me guess, you keep the chamber dry so you can scare an intruder away with the sound of the slide racking....

    I keep the chamber loaded with the 3-inch #4 buck and keep a mixed bag of the 2-1/2 inch '000' buck and more 3-inch #4 buck very handy (in my larger vest pocket)
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,830 Senior Member
    Guys...for the record...the OP has been banned. He admitted he posted the original .410 thread, for which he was banned. To the best of my knowledge, "permanently banned" means "permanently banned"...even when you come back with a different name...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Awwww man..... I never had my chance to toy with him :tissue:
This discussion has been closed.
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