Holsters and the draw

DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior MemberPosts: 9,496 Senior Member
Few things are as subjective as is the topic of Personal Defence, and one facet of that is the draw.

I remember helping with a class of uniformed FLEO's trying out a new "trick" retention type holster, really nice & shiny, but an absolute disaster when it came to drawing the sidearm, way too much time, and difficulty in clearing leather.
A decission was made right then to back to the older practicle holsters, after it was decided those fancy new holsters might get folks killed.

The draw is one of the most important parts of a self defence "system" and is made up of components, and each component of the draw is made up of elements, one of these elements of the draw is speed, however, speed is the least important element of the draw.

My personal experience has shown Me that if you need to draw your sidearm, things have most likley gone South fast, and you will need a well oiled machinery to aid you in surviving that encouter.

That machine is your sidearm carry / retention system, it is not just a matter of selecting a holster, it is how and where you will carry that holster, how you will stabilize said holster, and how you will be able to access it.

Many of Us CCW, and that is personal and particular and means different things to each and everyone of Us as we all have varying criteria in what equipment We choose.

One common mode of CCW is strong side high on the hip, 3 to 4 o'clock, and happens to be My least favorite mode for CCW, and that is because of the movements needed that precede the actual draw, much as when a doggy lifts his leg, you know he is fixing to piddle.

If you are in a need to draw your CCW, that mode can get you killed.
It is important to have the draw from concealment look like a natural movement other than moves that scream, look at Me I am drawing My sidearm !!!
Perhaps pocket carry is one of the hardest modes as far as stability and consistancy, but it is also one natural movement.

If you are facing an opponent trying to rob you, you are in a bind, so your draw should appear to be the act surrendering your wallet, ie. the wallet holster trick, and then fire on your opponent.

Choice of sidearm for CCW is important as far as ease of carry, and has made Me re-think a few aspects of concealed carry as far as gun choices and calibers, and if modern .380 acp ammo has really progressed as much as they say it has, I may add one to the arsenal.

When you have a good holster system, stable, well positioned, good access, practice with said system and refine and hone it so drawing is smooth or natural and with no extra movements.

You should not be distracted or have to look down in order to draw.
You should not need two hands to draw, or need to fumble with anything while drawing.
When you have a good holster system, well honed and practiced, the last element that falls into place is SPEED.... speed of the draw is the sum of all the other elements of the draw adding up.

You will achieve the so called "quick draw" when all the other elements of your holster system are in place....
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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Replies

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,099 Senior Member
    I suspect the argument of retention DUTY holsters versus the more basic will never end. Fact is, anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing. Waaaay to many variables involved - many of them operator-related - in that one for it to ever be settled. For CCW, however, the concealment should be considered at least part of your retention - if the gun isn't perceived, then it can't be grabbed.

    I tend to disagree on the disguise of the draw as a wallet surrender, leaning more towards using a feigned wallet surrender to distract from the draw. Remember what Han Solo did to the poor, unsuspecting Greedo? An adversary will be watching your hands regardless, and getting him watching the wrong hand seems a better bet than having him immediately cue on your pistol as it comes out.

    If you're drawing against an already drawn weapon, you're pretty much dead unless you do something to buy time for the draw, be that distraction or relocating yourself. A holster you can draw from while beating feet or falling down is a worthy consideration.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Good points.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • jguilletjrjguilletjr New Member Posts: 6 New Member
    I agree that a smooth draw is vital. I submit that paying attention to ones surroundings, using available cover while drawing your weapon (or before) can go a long way in defending yourself. By being alert to potential threats, and where a threat may appear you may be able to avoid having to shoot, and at the very least you will allready have your hand on your weapon, and some sort of plan before the threat is upon you. If you don't see it coming you are probably screwed.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    The more I think about it, I am tending to holsters that are built into jackets and light shirts, vest etc....
    I had a denim jacket that had a holster sewn into by a tailor friend, and it seemed to Me to be a mighty handy way to CC.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "If you don't see it coming you are probably screwed."

    That just is not true, if you find yourself in a coffin, you are probably screwed.

    There are many chances and thanks to those and providence or luck or whatever beliefs you may or may not subscribe to, I am alive and able to post a response.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    That just is not true, if you find yourself in a coffin, you are probably screwed.

    Too late to be quick, then.
    "....the true general purpose big-game cartridges used in this country come in but two calibers, .30 and 7mm. (the .270 Win. is merely a slightly aberrant 7mm whose bullets are .007" undersize.) -Finn Aagaard - American Rifleman, December 1986
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    A perps gun is likely to suffer the same problems anyone else is likely to suffer, add to that unreliable scrounged up ammo, and other factors, you have more of a chance of survival than not.

    Look at the many accounts where a good guy has survived an attack by more than one opponent that had already drawn and the good guy survived.

    Even getting shot does not mean it is all over either.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Even getting shot does not mean it is all over either.

    Bingo!!!!
    "....the true general purpose big-game cartridges used in this country come in but two calibers, .30 and 7mm. (the .270 Win. is merely a slightly aberrant 7mm whose bullets are .007" undersize.) -Finn Aagaard - American Rifleman, December 1986
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    A perps gun is likely to suffer the same problems anyone else is likely to suffer, add to that unreliable scrounged up ammo, and other factors, you have more of a chance of survival than not.

    Look at the many accounts where a good guy has survived an attack by more than one opponent that had already drawn and the good guy survived.

    Even getting shot does not mean it is all over either.

    NEVER, ever give up.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,393 Senior Member
    Many moons ago when I was taking an anti-terrorist driving course, we had a swaggering instructor who liked to use the idea that the terrorist wants you to stop on the "X", and if you stop on the "X", you're dead!

    No one challenged him on it, so being me, I did so. I pointed out that if you stop on the "X", you're in deep crap, but if you "believe" you're dead, you are 99% there! You "never" believe you're dead! Even when you're seeing the dark man with the scythe in the shadows with his toothy grin, you'd better be thinking that you're going to survive.

    Facing a drawn weapon isn't necessarily a death sentence. Case in point. It takes some ingenuity and some building skills, but you can demonstrate that a moving target is harder to hit, than a stationary target when you're moving. Have a target that runs on wheels with ropes and pulleys. At 5 to 7 yards, with your gun drawn, have two friends pull the target quickly, left or right. You won't know which direction. You have to make a snap shot.

    Now, with the stationary target, you move left or right while drawing. Use whatever evasive technique you want, but make a snap shot on the stationary target at you move.

    If you believe you are about to be shot, what have you to lose?

    An old cop I used to ride with on my nights off when I wasn't doing anything else, used to carry a ring of keys in his left hand when he answered a call, normally a domestic or disorderly. I asked him what it was for and he dropped the keys without hesitation. My eyes followed them and instantly I realized my mistake. He was pointing his finger at my forehead. Another option is to toss the keys at the perp's face.

    There are lots of different scenarios that will help you survive a drawn gun scenario.

    p.s. As for holsters. I'm a firm believer in the cross draw! You can draw it while seated, particularly in a car with your seatbelt fastened. Drawing it does not require you move your upper body perceptibly. You can reach your carry weapon with either hand!!! You can't do this strong side! As your weapon is supposed to be concealed, the argument that you are presenting the butt of your gun to someone is moot.

    Dan
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Member
    Good video by our own George Wehby on the draw...
    [video=youtube_share;yWoOwbaC5MQ]
    To make a long post short here, ...
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    The only thing I would like to see different there is for George to draw from concealment, as I would likely be doing in a real-life situation. I'm sure there's a vid of that somewhere.........
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a vid of that somewhere.........
    There will be. Just keep an eye on his YouTube channel.
    To make a long post short here, ...
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Very good post Dan !!!! :up: :up: :up:
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bowserbbowserb Member Posts: 277 Member
    I think this is an important thread. There are two--maybe more, but two for sure--kinds of holster draws: From an externally worn holster, and from a concealed holster or other gun holder. It's the concealed draw that is, I think, the more problematic. I watched Matt Dillon draw his gun every week for years, but it was always from a holster on the hip with no cover. How many of us kids of that era practiced the same thing?

    Now comes a concealed handgun. It's under an untucked shirt (like I wear) or under a jacket or in a shoulder holster or in a Kangaroo(r) holster, or the worst of all, I believe, in a holster under a tucked shirt. Short of a drawstring attached to the shirt tail, threaded through the shirt to the other side for an easy pull to lift the shirt up out of the way of the holster, I don't see a single move method for drawing a concealed handgun. This worries me more than my shooting accuracy--which also worries me.

    I don't know a way to draw a gun quickly and unobtrusively from under a shirt (at 4 o'clock, for example). Any experts here?
    "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history." - Ayn Rand
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Well when I worked U/C LEO preventing tourists from getting robbed in the Dominican Republic, I used to wear a Guayabera shirt and cross draw holsters drawing was instinctive and fast / smooth, of course I had plenty of back up, but on the occasions that back up was a but slow..... I managed.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bowserbbowserb Member Posts: 277 Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Well when I worked U/C LEO preventing tourists from getting robbed in the Dominican Republic, I used to wear a Guayabera shirt and cross draw holsters drawing was instinctive and fast / smooth, of course I had plenty of back up, but on the occasions that back up was a but slow..... I managed.
    Hey, DoctorWho. I appreciate your reply. Undercover LEO is not unlike a citizen carrying concealed...that is, except for the training, experience, risk, obligation and responsibility, I mean! Your Guayabera shirts are similar to the straight bottom shirts I wear most of the time. Do you feel like sharing any details of what holster, where you wore it, and the procedure to draw the gun? Seems like it would still be a two-handed job to pull the shirt bottom out of the way and draw.

    Can you elaborate without disclosing LEO secrets?

    Thanks.
    "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history." - Ayn Rand
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    The shirt is loose, and you draw almost as if the shirt was not there.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • swetilyswetily Banned Posts: 35 Member
    No it's not. "clearing" the shirt is a pita, and always risks a "tangle" in the shirt, a fumble grasp on the gun, etc. The behind the hip draw looks exactly like you are reaching back there for your wallet, actually. I do favor the front pants pocket, not just becaue of the "hand it over" robbery advantage, either., I'd be more likely to just give him the wallet and then shoot him in the back of the head, actually, than try to draw against a man having "the drop" on me, (unless I thought he was going to shoot me anyway, that is.) I could always fire several shots, very swiftly. No way to know which one hit him in the head, eh? Maybe the first 2-3 missed and he turned to flee before I could recognize that fact and stop firing? :-)

    The real reason to favor the front pants pocket rig is the ability to ALWAYS have my hand on the gun, ready for a 1/4 second draw stroke, any time that I think that I even MIGHT smell a rat! If it turns out to be nothing, great, nobody is aware that I had a gun in hand. If you can't see trouble coming, 34/ second in advance (the time needed to insert hand in pants pocket and grip gun) then a larger gun or belt rig is most unlikely to help you in any significant way. Remember, 90+% of the time, you don't have to hit anyone with a bullet in order to make them flee.

    I can beat the coin dropping from waist height, to a 1 handed point shot hitting the chest, at arm's length range, with an IWB rig, worn at the navel, starting hands at side, covering the gun with a hung out T shirt tail, the shirt being a bit large, with birdshot sewn into the bottom "hem", so it will "brush" up and clear of the gun, with a move of the weak side hand's fingers, as I suck in my stomach (to allow the strongside hand to get a good firing grip on the gun's butt.) However, I still prefer the pocket gun, cause altho the pocket draw is "only" 1/4 second faster for me, that's still one shot (or club swing or knife thrust) that I'd be "giving" an attacker. For most people, the pocket draw (once hand is on gun) is at least 1/2 second faster than a ccw belt draw.

    The fast draw means far more than shooting skill, nearly always, cause the odds are 10 to 1 that you won't have to hit anyone with a bullet, IF you get your gun out and "on" them in time for them to notice it and flee. Be too slow, and you can easily end up wrassling him for control of your own gun.

    The guy in the video is LATE getting his finger inside of the trigger guard. That should happen on the forward stroke, as soon as the gun's muzzle is ahead of the weak side hand. He'd be really late if he had to fire a 1 handed point shot, at near arm's length ranges.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Perhaps you may find it so, but the Guayabera shirt is loose and a size or too bigger and easy to draw from, in all that time I never had a snag or tangle, used to leave the last two buttons undone to help.

    We were not trying to make anyone flee, We were getting rid of harmful pests & vermin.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • swetilyswetily Banned Posts: 35 Member
    try that HERE, as a civilian, and you will probably spend 50k or so trying to stay out of prison and not get sued out of everything you ever make. Sure, if you are SLOW, you can avoid shirt problems. Try the drop the coin, ccw draw timing test. :-) I clear the shirttail with an upward "brush" of the weak hand.
  • QuinianQuinian Senior Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    Yeah mines at the 5 o clock (above the wallet) just for the reason you stated. My only real concern is the "click" on the snap might give me away but at that point I've probably already peed on myself and desided I need to reduce the bad guys threat level time now or I'm done for.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Dunno, the Dominican Republic was a different place, as a LEO there, the rules were different, the Government was tired of cut throats preying on tourists and wanted it to stop, period, by any means possible.

    As a non-LEO in the here and now, if I draw, it will be a clear cut case, and so far I have not had to spend a dime in My legal defense. :angel:
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • swetilyswetily Banned Posts: 35 Member
    If he's at "hand it over" ranges, and you aint a black belt Bruce lee as well as a TGO, best let him just have the wallet. Why is there much of value in it, anyway? Big money belongs in a money clip or a money belt, or rolled up in your sock, etc. Better practice side stepping as you draw, firing as you step, and keep doing both until you either see his brains or make it to cover.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    If guys like that had brains, they would most likely have chosen another line of work other than robbing people for a living and as Josie Wales said:
    " dying ain't much of a living boy"


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEClGMJ2r3g
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • tv_racin_fantv_racin_fan Senior Member Posts: 617 Senior Member
    AH but ya notice that when that bounty hunter walked out ole Josey reached for his gun and waited, he knew the guy was coming back.. they always do.
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    swetily wrote: »
    I'd be more likely to just give him the wallet and then shoot him in the back of the head, actually, than try to draw against a man having "the drop" on me, (unless I thought he was going to shoot me anyway, that is.) I could always fire several shots, very swiftly. No way to know which one hit him in the head, eh? Maybe the first 2-3 missed and he turned to flee before I could recognize that fact and stop firing? :-)

    Did I seriously just read that? :uhm:
    "....the true general purpose big-game cartridges used in this country come in but two calibers, .30 and 7mm. (the .270 Win. is merely a slightly aberrant 7mm whose bullets are .007" undersize.) -Finn Aagaard - American Rifleman, December 1986
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,188 Senior Member
    I'm reading a lot of stuff I'm wondering.

    Bill Jordan, is that you?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,205 Senior Member
    I'm reading a lot of stuff I'm wondering.

    Bill Jordan, is that you?

    Naw...can't be, must be some other guy.....Bill was never that full of himself...nor was Bill ever that full of crap...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,321 Senior Member
    There ain't no good holsters, just bad and worse. I dislike the shoulder holster, as I have a barrel chest and it takes two hands to draw the gun...one on the gun, one on the holster. The holster shifts around, and puts it in under your armpit too far. In addition, you can't take off your jacket or coat without exposing your gun.

    As for cross draw, it's slow IMO. It's handy enough, but in a face to face deal, the gun is actually more accessible to the opponent than you.

    I'm a side holster fan, my favorite being the Askins Avenger style for a 1911, but it's far from perfect. Holds the gun well enough and is VERY fast, good things.

    Best of all, I like any kind of pocket holster for my Kahr PM 9. It's invisible, quick, and you can have your hand on your gun and play pocket pool at the same time.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
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