Holsters and the draw

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Replies

  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    A couple of thoughts:

    An "unobtrusive draw", for a private citizen, is IMO overrated. Should you find yourself in a situation that requires a draw, stealth is out the window. If :fan:, I want my defensive equipment in my hand NOW, and likely in full view of whoever has made me feel that way so they KNOW I'm ready to take care of the problem. And "hand the wallet and shoot in the back of the head?!?" If the wallet's handed over, and you have the OPPORTUNITY to shoot the back of the head, the danger is past. Unless the local law (Texas, for instance, allowing the use of deadly force to prevent the escape from a committed felony), you will put yourself in a position to have to explain your actions to the officers, the grand jury, and the judge. "I was pissed off that he got the drop on me and took my wallet, so I gave him what he needed." Good luck with that...

    If stealth is an issue, sliding the gun unobtrusively from its holster should be an option only if you are not already the center of attention. "Oh, crap, something's happening on that side of the street, time to beat feet and get myself/family to safety!" - then keep that side of your body away from the threat (easiest to do with a strong-side carry) while bringing the gun out, keep it low to your side, and make an aggressive advance to the rear. I select covering garments that by and large only require one hand to clear the weapon (I picked up a trick from Mas Ayoob in numerous articles I've read - keep keys, change, or something else with a bit of weight in the pocket of a jacket (sport, suit, windbreaker, or other) over the gun - helps keep the wind from blowing it up, and a sweep with the fingers of the drawing hand while beginning the draw down that side of the opening swings the jacket out of the way to allow hand placement and draw. A bit of practice like any other tactic, but it becomes pretty natural.

    My preference (and maybe from carrying a duty rig with the gun in this position) is strong-side, with a minimal (zero if possible) cant to front or rear. This position and angle, for me, allows a versatile range of draw options - sweeping it forward for immediate deployment (the reason for the forward-cant "FBI rake"), a straight up-and-down motion to clear the holster and have the gun in hand, but as unobtrusive as a drawn weapon can be, down alongside the thigh, or a "retention-type" draw to shot, clearing leather and bringing the muzzle up while keeping the gun close to the side for a "get off me" shot while possibly holding the assailant off with the off-hand.

    Of course, this is what I find works for me, with a preference for "comforting" rather than "comfortable" hardware - duty-size, or slightly smaller (Glock 19, say, vs full-size G-17, or a Commander 1911 vs a Gov't Model size). Your mileage may, of course, vary.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,835 Senior Member
    A couple of thoughts:

    ( a trick from Mas Ayoob in numerous articles I've read - keep keys, change, or something else with a bit of weight in the pocket of a jacket (sport, suit, windbreaker, or other) over the gun - helps keep the wind from blowing it up, and a sweep with the fingers of the drawing hand while beginning the draw down that side of the opening swings the jacket out of the way to allow hand placement and draw. A bit of practice like any other tactic, but it becomes pretty natural.

    OR...you can have the wife sew a load of birdshot in the "hem" of your shirt/coat....(if you're a gunfighter like someone on this thread) though it makes a hell of a racket in the dryer....

    Good post Gunrunner....your observations are spot on...

    Good
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • swetilyswetily Banned Posts: 35 Member
    and if it's COLD, windy or raining, you NEVER FASTEN your coat, right? BS. or you are concealing your rig with a sweater, sweat shirt, hungout shirt tail, what good is all your practice at "brushing" aside an open coat with little finger, eh? The weight to use in a pocket, obviously, is a spare magazine, newbies! sheehs. Bill's been dead for years, and he WAS full of crap. For instance, his "River" holster had an exposed trigger guard an a STUPID retaining strap, and without that strap, you can't take 2 running steps without the gun falling out of the rig! He ALSO, in his book, advocated that you start pulling the trigger while the gun was still in the holster, and finish the pull as the gun came level on the target. He also "thought", in the days of the .38 lrn no less, that you should aim at the belt buckle of an attacker! Bill being a hunter, he knew better than to shoot animals in the belly. So why assume that you should do such a thing to dangerous men, hmmm?

    He "thought" that a 2" .22 mag rimfire was "somehow' superior to a 2" .38, even tho he advocated the use of handloaded ammo. A 2" .22 mag is 40 grs at 1500 fps (or less) while you can easily get a hollowbased 80 gr .38 bullet going 1500 fps in a .38 snub. The THV Arcane people got a 45 gr bullet going 2200 fps in a 4" 38, back in the early '70's! Google for that outfit.

    Bill also thought that deactivating the 1911's grip safety "somehow' made the gun "unsafe" to carry. Well, then, what about the P35 Browning, the Stars, etc, Bill? NO grip safety. The grip safety does not block the sear or the hammer, all it blocks is the trigger. It was put on the gun to help prevent calvarymen from shooting their horses in the neck, when the horse reared at contact with the enemy, and the man grabbed at the saddle horn with his gun hand. His other hand, of course, holding the reins.

    Bill also thought that a "speed lever" on a 1911 made the gun dangerous to carry, and that 9mm swc's made the autoloader an ok manstopper, while being reliable enough, IF tuned carefully by a knowledgable smith. Shoot some animals with 9mm swc's some time, and see if you are impressed? Today's jhp ammo feeds a lot more smoothly than swc's ever thought of doing, especially in the "straight shot from mag to chamber" designs, like Glock.

    Bill claimed that some Border Patrolman that he knew used a 4" .38 to get hits on a rifle-armed attacker, at 200 yds. Now, do YOU believe that one? Bill Jordan shot his own partner while in a Border Patrol office, did you know that? :-) He also, right in his book, said it was ok to alter death scenes, by leaving a "throwdown" gun to be found. In fact, he said that he did so himself, to save the career of a young officer that he cared about. Ignorance might be blissful, but it makes you look silly to those who DO know, dudes.
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    swetily wrote: »
    and if it's COLD, windy or raining, you NEVER FASTEN your coat, right? BS. or you are concealing your rig with a sweater, sweat shirt, hungout shirt tail, what good is all your practice at "brushing" aside an open coat with little finger, eh? The weight to use in a pocket, obviously, is a spare magazine, newbies! sheehs.

    Two words for ya: Vel - Cro. My "heavy" winter coat is actually a shell with a zip-out liner, and I tend to prefer to be a bit cooler. Never zip the coat while carrying, just attach the velcro wind-flap along the front closure. Same draw movements, fingers (all of them, where do you get the idea of a "little finger" sweep?) go into the opening between velcro patches, a slight tug and a downward reach, and I'm into the same draw stroke as with an open jacket. And a spare mag in the pocket? I'd rather carry it in a mag pouch (speedloader pouch, if revolver of course) to minimize fumbling for a reload in the flapping pocket. The pockets get non-essential stuff, the survival equipment is kept closer to my body and more stable so I know habitually where it's at.

    And what/who called for the rant on Bill Jordan? Different times, my friend. I will refrain from refuting the vehemence of some of the points you left us with swetily, let's just say Bill lived in a far different (less litigious, more primitive equipment) than today. Anything we hear from the "greats" such as Jordan, Elmer Keith, Jack O'Connor, even *gasp* Jeff Cooper will stand against a good deal of scrutiny and evaluation, not accepted as blind gospel.

    Sounds like a lot of brouhaha from SOME random GUY.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    Uhm gunrunner, Linefinder's done smacked him on the head with his Ban Hammer :banned:

    (Look under his name, where yours says "member" )
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    And let the Congregation say: AMEN !!!!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Uhm gunrunner, Lifefinder's done smacked him on the head with his Ban Hammer :banned:

    Mebe smacked him offside the head too!! :banned:

    Gone from us too soon, so young, so dumb so little time !!!
    So many things left unsaid, poor dearly departed.......
    Taken from our midst so quickly......

    :devil:
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    knite, I saw that, and debated not responding at all. Still, he may return to lurk and bask in the glow of his all-knowing retort to the comparison between himself and Mr. Jordan. I have a hard time letting the trolls get the last word. What works for one may not work for others - my body shape and kinetics favors the carry and draw methods I outlined, but I'm a taller than average feller (6'2", working on the better part of 225 lbs), and starting to notice a lessened flexibility in the joints. I just find a strong-side draw most comfortable, easiest to keep in mind where the gun is during regular activity, and my past conditioning will always gravitate to the right hip for the gun, same for left front pocket for the pocketknife, right fanny pocket for the wallet, and right front pocket for car keys.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    knite, I saw that,
    Just making sure :beer:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    Just bounced around and caught some more of his diatribes. He sure has a thing for slamming the big names, I doubt he's ever gone against Mr. Ayoob in a timed draw-to-shoot "event" like he claimed elsewhere. Putting a lot of stock in a "fast draw" over accurate fire is nearly literally shooting yourself in the foot.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    So true.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    I started the Bill Jordan thing. He was talking about his fast draw and hit, and I asked if he was Bill Jordan.

    Only thing was, Bill was documented as actually doing what he said.
    Overkill is underrated.
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