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BPsniper
BannedPosts: 1,961 Senior Member
Let's talk triggers.
BPsniper
BannedPosts: 1,961 Senior Member
As I've said before, I am a trigger Nazi. I am anal about triggers and how they feel. Weight, slack, creep, overtravel, etc. I know what I WANT and I know that I don't always get or have exactly that. Depending on the gun, some things I can overlook. But I am here to say that I like LIGHT trigger pulls with zero creep! I can accept a little more weight if it is crisp.
I have bench guns and I have hunting guns. BUT, I am not a comp shooter like Linefinder so 2 oz. triggers are not a necessity for me. I would have to say that my ideal, all around trigger for most of my purposes would be a 1 pound trigger with no slack or creep and very little overtravel.
Because it was on my mind, I pulled out a few guns and put the scale to their triggers. Here is my short list and what I think of them.
Hunting Rifles
.308 Kimber Montana & 84 Select - Factory Trigger set to 3 pounds on both. These triggers do not rank high on my list. They are not BAD triggers but not my favorite. No slack or creep and very little overtravel which is perfect. Just heavier than I like on a rifle I expect accuracy out of and not as responsive as I like.
.375 Ruger Hawkeye - Factory Trigger set to 4 pounds. You know, I don't mind the weight on this trigger. It's a 'dangerous game rifle' after all. I can live with the weight when the nerves are up and you're crawling through the brush tracking a big, bad whatever. But it has too much overtravel! That, I would like taken out.
.30-06 Ruger No.1A Light Sporter - Factory Trigger set to 4.5 pounds. This is an old rifle with an aweful trigger. Heavy and spongy with too much overtravel. Oh well, I love the rifle.
.458 WM Mauser Action - I'm guessing this is a factory 2 stage trigger and with a total weight of 5 pounds. The rifle was built over 40 years ago by my Mentor. Heavy, spongy with overtravel. As I said before, I can live with a trigger of this weight for the intended purpose and have no idea if any of the other faults can even be addressed or if I even want to bother.
.404 Jeffery 1917 Action - I guess Factory Trigger set to 3 pounds. Another rifle built years ago by my Mentor. This trigger is NICE for a DG Rifle. Crisp and responsive. Perfect for the rifle. Wish the .458 was like this one.
.35 Whelen 700 Action - Keplinger Set Trigger with 3 pounds standard and 6oz set. I HATE this trigger!!!! Just the feel of the trigger itself bugs me. Smooth and rounded....YUCK! At 3 pounds, the pull is too heavy and overtravel too much. Set, the 6oz ain't bad but the trigger leaving my finger and the travel to sear release drives me bonkers! Did I mention I HATE this trigger? I have a Timney trigger sitting on the shelf waiting for me to put it on. That should solve the problem.
.25-06 Remington 700 Action - Shilen Trigger set to 1.5 pounds. Excellent trigger!!! Just how I like it. No slack, no creep, crisp, light, no overtravel. Nothing else to say.
.243 Winchester in Remington 700 - This is a factory rifle I put a 40x Trigger in and set to 1.5 pounds. It has one little 'tick' in the pull I can't seem to get out. But it is consistent so I treat it like a two stage trigger. Start the pull and feel the 'tick'. Then I know it is about to go off. Nice and light with minimal overtravel. Not bad. Just wish I could fix the 'tick'. Until then, it's a two stage trigger for me.
6.5-284 in 700 Action - Rifle Basix Trigger set to 1.5 pounds. Had a little creep in it so my Mentor fixed the problem. Now it's a pretty good trigger.
Bench Guns
.308 Winchester 700 Action - Shilen Trigger set to 1 pound. Love this trigger! Nuf said.
.223 Remington on 700 Action - Shilen Trigger set to 1 pound. See above.
Didn't weigh them all. Just the ones I really care about. As before, I like light triggers. For hunting, 1.5 pounds is about right. When sighting in the hunting rifles, I wish they were lighter as even 1.5 pounds seems heavy but I can live with it as I know they are mainly a field gun. My bench guns also see the field and because of that, the 1 pound pull is a good compromise. They work for both worlds.
Questions to you.
What trigger do you prefer and for what use?
What weight is your 'ideal'?
Do your guns meet your standards?
I have bench guns and I have hunting guns. BUT, I am not a comp shooter like Linefinder so 2 oz. triggers are not a necessity for me. I would have to say that my ideal, all around trigger for most of my purposes would be a 1 pound trigger with no slack or creep and very little overtravel.
Because it was on my mind, I pulled out a few guns and put the scale to their triggers. Here is my short list and what I think of them.
Hunting Rifles
.308 Kimber Montana & 84 Select - Factory Trigger set to 3 pounds on both. These triggers do not rank high on my list. They are not BAD triggers but not my favorite. No slack or creep and very little overtravel which is perfect. Just heavier than I like on a rifle I expect accuracy out of and not as responsive as I like.
.375 Ruger Hawkeye - Factory Trigger set to 4 pounds. You know, I don't mind the weight on this trigger. It's a 'dangerous game rifle' after all. I can live with the weight when the nerves are up and you're crawling through the brush tracking a big, bad whatever. But it has too much overtravel! That, I would like taken out.
.30-06 Ruger No.1A Light Sporter - Factory Trigger set to 4.5 pounds. This is an old rifle with an aweful trigger. Heavy and spongy with too much overtravel. Oh well, I love the rifle.
.458 WM Mauser Action - I'm guessing this is a factory 2 stage trigger and with a total weight of 5 pounds. The rifle was built over 40 years ago by my Mentor. Heavy, spongy with overtravel. As I said before, I can live with a trigger of this weight for the intended purpose and have no idea if any of the other faults can even be addressed or if I even want to bother.
.404 Jeffery 1917 Action - I guess Factory Trigger set to 3 pounds. Another rifle built years ago by my Mentor. This trigger is NICE for a DG Rifle. Crisp and responsive. Perfect for the rifle. Wish the .458 was like this one.
.35 Whelen 700 Action - Keplinger Set Trigger with 3 pounds standard and 6oz set. I HATE this trigger!!!! Just the feel of the trigger itself bugs me. Smooth and rounded....YUCK! At 3 pounds, the pull is too heavy and overtravel too much. Set, the 6oz ain't bad but the trigger leaving my finger and the travel to sear release drives me bonkers! Did I mention I HATE this trigger? I have a Timney trigger sitting on the shelf waiting for me to put it on. That should solve the problem.
.25-06 Remington 700 Action - Shilen Trigger set to 1.5 pounds. Excellent trigger!!! Just how I like it. No slack, no creep, crisp, light, no overtravel. Nothing else to say.
.243 Winchester in Remington 700 - This is a factory rifle I put a 40x Trigger in and set to 1.5 pounds. It has one little 'tick' in the pull I can't seem to get out. But it is consistent so I treat it like a two stage trigger. Start the pull and feel the 'tick'. Then I know it is about to go off. Nice and light with minimal overtravel. Not bad. Just wish I could fix the 'tick'. Until then, it's a two stage trigger for me.
6.5-284 in 700 Action - Rifle Basix Trigger set to 1.5 pounds. Had a little creep in it so my Mentor fixed the problem. Now it's a pretty good trigger.
Bench Guns
.308 Winchester 700 Action - Shilen Trigger set to 1 pound. Love this trigger! Nuf said.
.223 Remington on 700 Action - Shilen Trigger set to 1 pound. See above.
Didn't weigh them all. Just the ones I really care about. As before, I like light triggers. For hunting, 1.5 pounds is about right. When sighting in the hunting rifles, I wish they were lighter as even 1.5 pounds seems heavy but I can live with it as I know they are mainly a field gun. My bench guns also see the field and because of that, the 1 pound pull is a good compromise. They work for both worlds.
Questions to you.
What trigger do you prefer and for what use?
What weight is your 'ideal'?
Do your guns meet your standards?
Replies
On my rear grip specialty handgun I use Jewell or a Kelbly.
I use lighter triggers than most would be comfortable shooting even for hunting.
These rigs are used for both field shooting, hunting and bench.
Most everything I use is a single-shot and I just leave the chamber empty when hunting.
My heaviest trigger for my specialty handguns is 1.5 (2 of them) all the rest are from 3-4 ounces to under a pound.
"The Un-Tactical"
Like you, I don't use the safety on any of my bolt guns. The chamber is either empty, loaded with bolt up, or it's ready to go.
On a DA revolver smooth is the most important part.
On an AR, I WANT a NM trigger, period. My M4gery will be getting a RRA NM trigger group as soon as I have the money to spend on it.
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
Kelbly is known for precision products:
http://www.kelbly.com/main.html
http://www.kelbly.com/triggers.html
Jewell's are not the best tactical trigger in that when they get dirty they can have issues at times, but otherwise I really like them.
I believe I have a Timney on my AR-15 handgun, so that would be my heaviest trigger.
I also have Kidd's best trigger on a rear-grip clone 10-22 specialty handgun (non designated action) that is really nice as well.
"The Un-Tactical"
What experiences do you have with the Jard tactical triggers?
"The Un-Tactical"
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
"The Un-Tactical"
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
In my bolt rigs that are rear grip I have 2 Jewels (6.5-284, and a switch barrel 6.5WSM/7WSM), and a one Kelbly (switch barrel 6.5-284, 243 Win, 6mm-6.5x47 Lapua).
I have two Dell's on center-grip XP-100's 7SAUM, and a 6.5WSM, and then I have a reworked Remmy XP-100 trigger on my 338 AX is a Wildcat from Kirby Allen/Allen Precision Shooting (basically an improved 338 Lapua case).
My MOA Maximum's are adjustable and give great trigger pulls, but it is an external hammer so a longer lock time.
I have a rear grip specialty handgun with a Lawton action that is the essence of extreme. Shooting it prone with a one hand hold is a hoot:guns:
It is a switch barrel, McRee chassis (The XP-100 with the Kelbly trigger also has a McRee stock as does the rear grip switch barrel 7WSM/6.5 WSM), Chambered in 375 Snipe-Tac and 408 Chey-Tac. The Snipe Tac is an improved version of the 375 Chey-Tac (Dave Viers/Black Diamond wildcat: http://www.blackdiamondrifles.com/
Right now it has a reworked Remmy trigger but it is to heavy for what it will be used for.
How light can you get the Timney and AI trigger down to?
Since we are talking triggers what part of your finger is touching the trigger and where is your thumb placed on the stock?
"The Un-Tactical"
BTW, I took a buddy of mine’s Ruger No 1 to the gunsmith at a little gun shop in Las Cruces. He did a fantastic job on it. There’s only so much you can do with the weight on those with factory triggers, but he did a great job of making it break clean. I think he got it down to about 3.5 pounds, but really got it feeling much better. Compared to what it was before, at least. That particular rifle also had some muzzle crown damage. Accuracy was the reason my buddy wanted it worked on. The ‘smith took a half inch off the barrel and recrowned it along with the trigger job. I think he charged about $130 for the work. We took the rifle out right after I picked it up and it shot about 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yards. Still not fantastic, but it’s a No1 and shoots much better than it did before.
My dedicated NRA match rifle started life running a Jewell 2-stage that as I recall was set right around two pounds. For reasons I no longer remember, the first stage in these triggers turned out to have durability issues - probably fine for bench guns, but for the rougher game of Highpower, it had problems. Trigger went back to Jewell and got converted to single stage, which I how I've run on several other guns.
Got a Timney external adjustable set around #3 on my zombie apocalypse bolt gun, and our agency guns have been converting to less snazzy versions of same. They break clean and hold up. 'Nuff said.
I don't like less than about 1.5#, I think mainly because shooting as many different guns as I have to, it's hard to get acclimation time - which triggers that light need. A buddy's got an Anschutz target .22 set to something like 12 ounces. I could learn to love it if I LIVED it, but coming from the daily grind of stock AR's set at 7-8 pounds and 870's with LE sear springs designed to RAISE a civilian-market pull to 5-8#, such things scare me more than anything else.
My love however, is a clean two stage. Stage one tells me where I am, and stage two sends it. Two pounds is about perfection, but anything under five makes me happy.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
This pretty much describes me.
The only gun that I regularly shoot that isn't a defensive piece, is my M&P 15-22 (imagine pulling your trigger finger through a bucket of gravel......that's what the pull is like on it), on it, and all of my other guns, I just keep whatever came from the factory.
At the same time though, I do understand the benefits of a nice trigger for something that's going to be taking shots, where the outcome is more important than just knocking around golf balls or ringing a steel plate.
The only trigger I have that I absolutely HATE is the one on my Marlin 882. I know it's a cheap rifle, no where near the standard of those mentioned here and the parts availability for it is laughable at best. I've stoned it and put a lighter spring in it, and while it's better, it's still crap. It isn't just heavy, it's hard. It takes a lot of force to even move the damned thing. The rifle itself seems fairly accurate for what it is, but the trigger works against you so much. There is an adjustable trigger available for it but at 80-90 bucks, I hate to spend the money. Hell, I don't have much more than that in the rifle itself.
But that's the only trigger I hate. I've adjusted 3 Remington 700 triggers and have loved them.
My .02
I realize the questions were for BPSniper but I tought I would respond also. I only have one Timney trigger and it is installed on my 308 FTR rig. It is set for about one pound. My trigger pull guage is not accurate enough to tell me the exact weight in ounces. I use the pad of my index finger, making sure that no other part of my finger is touching the wood and I place the pad right in the middle of the trigger. As for my thumb, I have been doing it two ways; the more common method is to have it on the other side of the stock from the rest of the fingers, but I have also been experimenting with putting it on top, alongside the action, pointing at the target. I fear that method is not working well for this stock as the pistol grip style is quite pronounced and the wrist of the stock is quite full and fills my hand nicely.
My other FTR match rifle is built on an AR-15 receiver and sports a two stage Geissele trigger with the first stage set at just around 2 pounds and the second stage set at just a few ounces. Again, the pad of the trigger finger is used to contact the trigger right in the middle, with care taken to not let the finger touch the rifle. My thumb is on the other side, as the Tubb-designed grip is very hand-filling and very much a pistol grip.
I have very long fingers, so having a grip that fills my hand is quite important to me, to the point where other people who have handled my rifles comment on how thick the grip portions are. However, they also find them much to their liking as it provides for consitent hand contact, though some people find them too big. In contrast, my NM AR-15 sports the regular AR-15 grip designed to be held by very small midgets and I find it difficult to shoot it as well as I would like to. Perhaps I should replace the grip now that I now longer compete in Service Rifle.
It really is all a question of fitting the rifle to you and your shooting style.
For a wide shoe trigger, it's pretty much the middle of the pad. For a thin shoe, it's actually a very minute shift forward. What ends up being in line with the base of my fingernail. If that makes any sense. I get better feel that way.
Now the thumb. Guess that really depends on the stock I'm using. For an HS varmint style, I generally rest my thumb on top of the grip. Relaxed and pointing towards the rear of the bolt. On a thumbhole stock like my Accuracy International, I keep my thumb outside the hole and on the same side as my hand. Again, relaxed and parallel to the barrel. The only difference to this grip is when doing position or alternate shooting in which case I may put my thumb through the hole in order to aid in keeping the rifle vertical. But I generally try to use the sling for that. Some pretzle positions just need a little more help.
With any stock though, I try to relax my hand as much as possible. Actually only placing tension on my middle and ring finger to slightly pull the stock into my shoulder. Always try to have a 90 degree bend in my trigger finger in relation to the trigger so as not to push or pull the trigger. Just press.
:that:
I typically have my middle finger and my ring finger on the pistol grip of the stock as well with having some air gap between the stock and my my trigger finger where it is close to the trigger. Basically, I try to take myself out of the shot and let the rifle do its work. Some positions require more handling though. I also use a field bag if at all possible.
I understand exactly what you are saying about finger placement on the trigger depending on shoe width.
With some triggers and set-ups I will put my thumb behind the trigger guard and send it that way. two-fingers only.
Also in some funky positions, I will use my specialty pistol set-up with a rifle that has a pronounced pistol grip and put my field bag underneath the grip and run my vertical that way. Consistent grip tension on the bag is important, because if you relax your hand in recoil you will shoot high whereas if you clinch during recoil you will shoot low.
Of course, there will likely be some horizontal as well since you are changing things up by gripping hard or relaxing grip.
Most of my triggers run from 2 ounces to about 8-9 ounces, so I typically work very, very light.
I also run some of the best muzzle brakes (Solid bottom), which allow me to shoot some larger case capacities and boomers with light holds.
"The Un-Tactical"
That's pretty extreme isn't it?