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Batman Premier in Colorado, 14 dead many more injured

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  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    A lot there depends on the massnof the projectile. The amount of inertia is directly tied to the objects mass. Which is why even an object with less KE can have greater inertia (think fast moving motorcycle versus mack truck). I'd need to know more about your targets construction, but 5' is a shorter fulcrum than you'd get on the upper chest of even a relatively short man when standing flat footed. The leverage difference is significant even if you add as little as 6". Particularly since your head shots on those are probably several inches down from the top (say 4?).

    Dude, I've seen them struck within an inch of the top of the head. No difference with either a 180gr .40 cal or a 175gr .30 cal. They remain standing as long as they are balanced. With they rock? Yeah. Do they fall? No.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • kevinsmith5kevinsmith5 Member Posts: 34 Member
    So steel rocks at a5 foot fulcrum. Give it 6 inches more and make it capable staggering and its going to fall. Which is the point. Make it a double tap and down it for sure. Tellme more about the construction though. Are they counter balanced? Spring loaded? What stands them up? What keeps them from falling forward? Did you buy them or make them? If you bought them, who made them? I'll look the design up myself.

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  • kevinsmith5kevinsmith5 Member Posts: 34 Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Dude, I've seen them struck within an inch of the top of the head. No difference with either a 180gr .40 cal or a 175gr .30 cal. They remain standing as long as they are balanced. With they rock? Yeah. Do they fall? No.

    And all 180 gr 40 S&W loads aren't equal. Bullet construction? Factory? Reload? If reloads, powder and charge? Barrel length?

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  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    And all 180 gr 40 S&W loads aren't equal. Bullet construction? Factory? Reload? If reloads, powder and charge? Barrel length?

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

    Factory 180gr Federal HST.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • kevinsmith5kevinsmith5 Member Posts: 34 Member
    I chrony'd those at only 950, so there is a lower KE involved as well. Assuming you use a 4 1/2 inch barrel.

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  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Just a point of order for Mr. Kevinsmith5: A mannequin made of ballistic gelatin has very poor muscle tone, and cannot make the muscle movements necessary to remain standing. Sayin'.................
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    I chrony'd those at only 950, so there is a lower KE involved as well. Assuming you use a 4 1/2 inch barrel.

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

    Ok, so what is your magic number?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • kevinsmith5kevinsmith5 Member Posts: 34 Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Here since you convenientlly ignored my post I'll try one more time. And lets just net it out, extra air trapping padding is not an option on a vest because of comfort factors but if you stuff a fluffy feather pillow between a kevlar vest and your body you'd probably not even flinch with the impact of a bullet.

    Why don't you try that one on your mythbusters show...

    Total energy is total energy. I'll gladly strike you with a force spring (horizontal pile driver) in the upper chest with 400 ft-lbs if you'd like. When the bullet deforms its energy is still transferred to the object it deforms AGAINST.....so I'm not sure how that matters.

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  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,463 Senior Member
    Err...no? I said nothing about fragments.

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    So what you are saying is that a .50BMG will blow a brick out of a wall keeping it intact? Remember, your argument here is that a vest stops the round so no energy is lost while slowing down due to penetration. You have made several complete circles in your argument.
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,590 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Factory 180gr Federal HST.

    How do they function in your gun? I'm looking at different defensive ammo options.......
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    I have been reading this thread. Kevin, you are wrong. Even if I was standing as stiff as a board with a high quality vest on and you fired a .40cal at my chest that delivers 400ft lbs of energy....... It's NOT going to "tip me over," since your stating that its not actually knocking you off your feet, it is indeed "tipping."
  • kevinsmith5kevinsmith5 Member Posts: 34 Member
    I have been reading this thread. Kevin, you are wrong. Even if I was standing as stiff as a board with a high quality vest on and you fired a .40cal at my chest that delivers 400ft lbs of energy....... It's NOT going to "tip me over," since your stating that its not actually knocking you off your feet, it is indeed "tipping."

    Ok, lets try it. Do you honestly think all those ballistic vest tests aim for below the midline for nothing? Keep in mind as i say this, I've seennthis done.

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  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    How do they function in your gun? I'm looking at different defensive ammo options.......

    Without a problem.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,877 Senior Member
    Ok, lets try it. Do you honestly think all those ballistic vest tests aim for below the midline for nothing? Keep in mind as i say this, I've seennthis done.

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
    I'd imagine it's partially to avoid trauma to the lungs, heart, and ribs due to the impact of the bullets. While not lethal, it's easier to treat a bruised stomach than a cracked rib.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,463 Senior Member
    And you don't know physics. Fulcrum length, look it up. Or come be a target.

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

    I do know a thing or two about physics. While not in the nancy boy school room setting, but being a DoD certified Rescue Technician I have had to design and implement some complex force multipliers, then bet my life off them working from 200 feet in the air. Lets go back to the video I posted. Are you saying that with the point of impact being 8" lower with over 3x as much force as the 400ft-lbs you specified, I am wrong?
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • kevinsmith5kevinsmith5 Member Posts: 34 Member
    So what you are saying is that a .50BMG will blow a brick out of a wall keeping it intact? Remember, your argument here is that a vest stops the round so no energy is lost while slowing down due to penetration. You have made several complete circles in your argument.

    How do you figure that? Ive seen a wall struck with a 50 BMG where the block with the whole in it was intact (not powder) and laying on the floor with a hole in it. I think you've added a lot to what I've said in your own mind. I also think you're willing to believe men leave there feet when hit in the vest, you just seem To be insisting that has nothing to do with the bullet. Which is strange.

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  • saxdsaxd Member Posts: 40 Member
    Ive got a masters in science education and teach my own MythBusters type classes.
    Plus my mother is dead and didn't have a basement. But thanks for the far from intellectual response.

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
    Oh really????
    You teach a mythbusters type class???
    Why don't you look up this episode of MYTHBUSTERS

    http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/10/episode_38_mythbusters_reviste.html

    THEY COULDN'T EVEN KNOCK DOWN A PIG CARCASS WITH A .50 CALIBER RIFLE!

    MYTH BUSTED!

    Now move along little troll... nice playing with you.
  • kevinsmith5kevinsmith5 Member Posts: 34 Member
    saxd wrote: »
    Oh really????
    You teach a mythbusters type class???
    Why don't you look up this episode of MYTHBUSTERS

    http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/10/episode_38_mythbusters_reviste.html

    THEY COULDN'T EVEN KNOCK A PIG CARCASS WITH A .50 CALIBER RIFLE!

    MYTH BUSTED!

    Now move along little troll... nice playing with you.

    Jeez. I'm quite familiar with that. No armor on the pig, bullets went right through. Totally unrelated to the conversation.

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  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I can personally testify that getting shot by a .45 acp at 10 feet, impact center-mass on a ballistic vest hurts, but does not make a person move in any way....... feels like a sharp slap to the chest.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,877 Senior Member
    Jeez. I'm quite familiar with that. No armor on the pig, bullets went right through. Totally unrelated to the conversation.

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
    And the bullet went through the block in the wall (which weigh less than the weight of a man) and I'm willing to bet it went through the ballistics dummy, or at least penetrated it. So how are those relevant to the conversation?

    Also, while ballistics gel looks neat, it's really not a good facsimile for an actual body. Reason being that it is uniform in density and elasticity, while bodies are made up of a variety of parts with varying densities and elasticities. Ballistics gel is judged to be a reasonable testing medium because it's replicable and because they've "calibrated" it to humans: they've found that bullets that penetrate 12" or so give good penetration in a human. That doesn't mean that it'll penetrate 12" in a human, but that it'll penetrate to the vital organs on most humans. And the ballistic gel is only acceptable within a narrow range of temperatures because that give repeatable results as far as density and elasticity go.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,590 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I can personally testify that getting shot by a .45 acp at 10 feet, impact center-mass on a ballistic vest hurts, but does not make a person move in any way....... feels like a sharp slap to the chest.....

    I think real world experience trumps lab test results every time. I don't doubt that there is a possibility of a handgun round upsetting a person's balance enough to knock them down, I just don't think that one can logically, reasonably make a declarative statement like "This round WILL knock a man down", when real-world experience does not support such a claim.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • saxdsaxd Member Posts: 40 Member
    Jeez. I'm quite familiar with that. No armor on the pig, bullets went right through. Totally unrelated to the conversation.

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

    Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't there a variety of firearms used including decent sized caliber pistols. Also, I believe the the pistol did not go through. Meaning all of the bullet's energy was imparted on the pig.
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Ok, lets try it. Do you honestly think all those ballistic vest tests aim for below the midline for nothing? Keep in mind as i say this, I've seennthis done.

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

    Either one of two things are happening here:
    1. Your a liar.
    2. The person that you "saw" with your own eyes, is 6ft tall, 83lbs, has a vagina and wears lacey panties.
    So please explain which.
  • saxdsaxd Member Posts: 40 Member
    Either one of two things are happening here:
    1. Your a liar.
    2. The person that you "saw" with your own eyes, is 6ft tall, 83lbs, has a vagina and wears lacey panties.
    So please explain which.

    Lmao... How did this thread turn into a physics discussion anyway.

    Frankly it is just this simple, every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

    If the bullet were powerful enough to knock a man over, the recoil of the gun would knock him over as well.
    Now I realize a wrist pivots, but honestly I can put the butt of a 12 gauge square in the center of my chest and the recoil from it wont knock me over.
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,364 Senior Member
    Got here late but I agree totally that the impact of any bullet will knock a person off their feet. I seen it in the movies..................
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Well, that settles it then! So, where were you when this started? I've been putting off my knitting because of this discussion! You could have settled it a long time ago! :-)
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    saxd wrote: »
    Lmao... How did this thread turn into a physics discussion anyway.

    Frankly it is just this simple, every action has an equal and opposite reaction.If the bullet were powerful enough to knock a man over, the recoil of the gun would knock him over as well.
    Now I realize a wrist pivots, but honestly I can put the butt of a 12 gauge square in the center of my chest and the recoil from it wont knock me over.
    This is extremely correct. From the grip of a gun to the shoulder blade, there is STILL NOT ENOUGH give to soak up the opposing force that would result from a projectile that could knock a person off his feet so that the shooter would still be standing (especially without being hemmed up on the ground with a broken wrist and shoulder, crying in the fetal position.)
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,117 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Sure, I'm shooting 535 grain Lyman Postell bullets at about 1500 fps producing a ME of 2667 ft. lbs... and using your rationale, I should be sending my steel targets into the next county...but in truth, they just stand there and take it...

    Now..your turn...please describe your rifle and the stance in question

    Not meaning to drift this thread...but....I'm still waiting to hear about this .45-70 that will knock you down...

    Are you perhaps balanced on a log? Wearing ballet shoes and standing on your tippy toes?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    My 45-70 WILL knock down the shooter if you have the wrong stance with that level load.

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    You really didn't just say this.
    I shoot a Winchester 458 mag with 510gr going about 2100fps and I have shot the 460 Weatherby which pushes that bullet around 2600 fps. A sore shoulder yes, being knocked down give me a break.
    Unless you are a 78 lb Cheeto munching Nancy boy, that may explain it.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,463 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Unless you are a 78 lb Cheeto munching Nancy boy, that may explain it.

    You forgot the hair gel.......
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
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