Home Main Category Second Amendment/Politics

Firearms Owner's License?

shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior MemberPosts: 5,742 Senior Member
I'm starting this thread to open up the discussion about a Firearms Owner's License.

Let me preface this with I am opposed to the idea. I feel the Second Amendment is very clear in its intent, even with the use of the term "militia" given what militias were during the Revolutionary War and for some time after.

However, an argument for a firearms owner's license is one that comes up in the debates I've made the mistake of getting drawn into (they just give me a headache, and quite frequently people on both sides end up insulting each other). Is the concept of an owner's license as asinine as it seems to me?

Let's say that an "ownership license" existed in the sense that it provided one with a card implying that A) You have passed a criminal background check much like we already have to do when buying a gun, and B) You have passed a basic instruction phase in firearms safety, similar to the firearms safety that some CHL courses teach. Now let's say that this instruction phase could be delivered at the LGS within a few hours and signed off, much like CHL courses. This license also extends benefits to minors in your custody (IE you take your kid hunting). This license would have no stipulations for "number of weapons" or "type of weapon." It would stipulate simply "Has passed criminal background check" and "Has proven that he/she can handle firearms safely."

I know this opens the door to other legislation such as "must provide good reason for need of a firearm." However, in concept only is something like this such an awful idea?
- I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
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Replies

  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,925 Senior Member
    So...you're talking about a nationalized version of the Illinois "FOID" card...Lemme think a minute.........Nope....
    It would be punishing the people at large for the crimes committed by a few....
    It wold do absolutely nothing to reduce crime as criminals wouldn't care about getting a card...they are...after all...criminals
    It would provide yet another cash cow for the government at the gun owners expense...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,543 Senior Member
    If it also served as my CC permit and it was recognized in all 50 states, I would at least entertain the idea. But if I had to get two licenses to exercise my rights under the constitution, and the exercise of those rights is still restricted to select states, I would say no. I try to be reasonable, but I think we already have all of the regulation we need. At this point, for me to favor any new legislation it would have to simplify what already is on the books, or reduce current restrictions.

    In Washington state, we just need a permit if we want to CC. As far as I'm concerned, that more than enough.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Pitch the same idea to voters, churches, reporters, and protesters.

    Some voters make horrible decisions, some churches enable child molesters, some reporters flat out lie, and some protesters turn violent.

    Punish all for the crimes of few.

    No thanks.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Nope. The 2nd Amendment is a Right; the Constitution acknowledges that right and that right 'shall not be infringed'. Bring something to the table that busts the chops of the criminals that misuse firearms and I'm in.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,714 Senior Member
    Yeah, bad idea that would get abused by the govt, besides those items you
    suggest in the licensing process most of us have already done and for the kids, hunter ed
    takes care of more of it.
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    We have the C&R license to purchase C&R firearms, that is a National firearms license, but but it is not currently valid for National CCW, it does however establish a precedence for a National firearms licence... if anything, it should be expanded to cover any & all firearms purchased to enhance a personal collection, it should allow for purchases made in person in all States, and be a valid firearms ID for National CCW......

    The reasoning being, with a C&R license, you prove you are not a person prohibited from purchasing or owning firearms, with the instant check system, you verify you are not a felon or a fugitive from Justice, therefore you should also be eligible on those grounds to National CCW....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,165 Senior Member
    License to Procreate...... Now there is an idea I can support.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,925 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    should be expanded to cover any & all firearms purchased to enhance a personal collection, it should allow for purchases made in person in all States,

    Then it wouldn't be a Curio and Relic license anymore...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    You are missing the point, it is a national license....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    I'm starting this thread to open up the discussion about a Firearms Owner's License.

    Isn't this pretty much what a CC permit is?
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,925 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    You are missing the point, it is a national license....

    Actually, I'm not...your C&R is optional...something YOU want....the OP is talking about a U.S. Govt license that would be required for anyone desiring to own a firearm...of any kind...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Actually,the OP is talking about a U.S. Govt license that would be required for anyone desiring to own a firearm...of any kind...

    That is such a bad idea.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    License to Procreate...... Now there is an idea I can support.


    :that:
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Actually, I'm not...your C&R is optional...something YOU want....the OP is talking about a U.S. Govt license that would be required for anyone desiring to own a firearm...of any kind...

    You need a driver's license to buy a firearm.... or at least a Government issued non driver I.D. a defacto firearms license of sorts..

    Your right to buy a firearm is heavily regulated at every level as well as heavily taxed and licensed from start to finish no matter how you slice it....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,262 Senior Member
    I'll let Martin Niemoller answer this one:

    "First they (the Nazis) came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me."


    Ponder that for a couple of minutes: Who exactly determines who gets that license and who doesn't? Who sets the initial criteria? Who gets to add or subtract from those criteria? Who gets to hold onto the list of people who have the license and those who have applied? Who's going to be manipulating those criteria and holding onto that list 20, 30, 40 years from now?

    The one lone nutjob in a movie theater with an AR-15 is a scary thing, but it's the organized, brainwashed nutjobs in large groups with machine guns and a tax base that scare me a whole lot more.

    But here's the part I find comical about the whole licensing / background check thing: Wambli's recent thread ( http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?7397-LE-misconduct-and-abuse-of-power-This-time-it-happened-to-me ) is a good example. He discusses the actions of a cop who was clearly having a bad day that was bordering on a psychotic episode. Here's the thing - to get his job, this guy had to be background-checked to the nines; the usual FBI stuff, fingerprints, probably interviews with friends and neighbors, almost certainly a polygraph, and numerous interviews and training sessions with people already successful in that line of work. The guy made it through all that, and was determined to be smart enough, stable enough, and upstanding enough to be entrusted with a badge and a gun in defense of the public good. Proof positive that you can still go nuts AFTER going through all of that.

    And the dude in Colorado? Clean as a whistle until the twig snapped. What good would ANY of that have done?
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,925 Senior Member
    Further....even though people have licenses to drive, we still have reckless, irresponsible drivers, drunk drivers, etc etc etc...How would this "license" do anything to ensure firearms were in the hands of responsible people...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Further....even though people have licenses to drive, we still have reckless, irresponsible drivers, drunk drivers, etc etc etc...How would this "license" do anything to ensure firearms were in the hands of responsible people...

    Not a damn thing. Yet we go through the same talking points every time something likes this happens. We have become talking heads.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Perhaps you are a talking head being from California and all, I however have a head and a body, thank you very much...............
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Perhaps you are a talking head being from California and all, I however have a head and a body, thank you very much...............

    Ah, I'm from Pennsylvania. I work in Ca.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    There are some advantages to such an idea if #1 it allowed a licensee to purchase a firearm on the spot in any state without a waiting period. #2, to carry said weapon or any other weapon for that matter, concealed about the person in any state in the Union. If either of those were removed from the equation, then no, it has no merit.

    Dan
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    I still don't like the idea.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    And the dude in Colorado? Clean as a whistle until the twig snapped. What good would ANY of that have done?

    Last night I watched “Through the Wormhole” on the Science Channel, hosted by Morgan Freeman. There is a study that involves P.E.T. brain scans and criminal activity, specifically geared towards psychopaths. After scanning 100s of known psychotics, the scientists have found a brain pattern that identifies psychosis. They hypothesize in the near future; by using PET scans, psychopaths can be identified previously to any psychotic behavior. With drug therapy, they can be turned into “normal”, functioning members of society.


    Watching this sent a chill down my spine. I can see future politicians using this information to demand potential gun owners get scanned before purchasing a weapon. The next step in background checks.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    I saw that 'Through the Wormhole' episode last night, too. The extrapolation of the consequences of that research is more than a little chilling. Can you say mind control of the masses through mandatory drug therapy? Get the population tamed down to sheep and cattle and make control easier.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    Don't need any such thing, in this Country, as stated before we have a 2nd Amendment right to own and bear arms.. I am totally opposed to the idea of a FOID card, or anything similar to the likes!!!! To me a required FOID is just another backdoor attempt by anti-gun people and anti-gun politicians to aquire tabs on those of us who own and use firearms.. One must not forget to look at world history, and discover that Nazi leaders, like Adolph Hitler, communist leaders like Joesph Stalin, and others, inacted similar measures in their country's too, to locate and disarm the citizens and millions and millions, were needlessly rounded up, and executed without the benefit of self-defense.

    I have heard tales of some state requiring a FOID, but for the moment can't cite any of them now. It's bad enough that we have state provided ID's like driver's license,hunting license, pilots license, etc., etc.,and yea I know I have heard all the arguements why we have to have those,and some of the reasons why I can half-way agree, but to agree with a Firearms Ownership license, is just where I will draw the line. NO!!!NO!!!NO!!!! I actually had to look the word license, up in order to spell it correctly, and when I read the definition of license by the Oxford American Dictionary, I thought it was appropriate to state it here. Take a long hard look:

    license: 1. A permit from the government or other authority to own or do something,or to carry on a certain trade. 2. permission. 3. disregard of rules or customs etc.,lack of due restraint in behavior. I don't get, nor do I understand definition #3?
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    The bottom line is that there is too much Government regulation now, and we certainly don't need anymore of it!!!!!!!!!!! and especially when it comes to firearms,guns, ammo, and the likes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • NomadacNomadac Senior Member Posts: 902 Senior Member
    Firearms Owner's License?

    1. No reason for it.
    2. Second Amendment supersedes any reason for it.
    3. Would have no effect on reducing crime.
    4. Would create more government expense to administer, data base, etc.
    5. Just another form of registration to identify gun owners if gun confiscation was ever implemented.
  • CaptainAhabCaptainAhab Member Posts: 93 Member
    I do NOT want the federal government involved in my gun ownership. The federal constitution says it's a right, not a privilege. Everywhere that the fed lays claim to jurisdiction, guns are banned....that paints a clear picture of their position.

    That being said, I would very much be in favor of a federal law that requires states to recognize other states permits, licenses, etc. It torks me off to no end that I have to play a silly game of getting ccw in 3 states just to be able to carry in most of the US.

    Lastly, I strongly believe that commission of a felony forgoes some essential rights. 2nd amendment being one. Let's step up enforcement and punishment of those existing laws. I am vehemently supportive of my 2nd amendment, and just as intensly AGAINST illegal (as defined by reasonable morale standards, not politics) ownership.
    In reply to Xerxes' demand to lay down his weapons, Leonidas replied;
    "Molon Labe"..... "Come and take them!"
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    The problem with liscensing and other restrictions is that these 'reasonable' measures are ALWAYS one-sided 'compromises' where gun owners give just a little bit more each time. Where does it end? Why am I required to proove that I won't commit a crime with a gun (as if that were even possible to do so) when, in fact, I have NEVER commited ANY violent crime, let alone a 'gun crime'?

    Having a national liscense that eases burecratic red tape and precludes state exemption sounds tempting...until you consider the downside. There are far too many 'reasonable' restrictions on this right as is, I'm reasonably certain adding more isn't going to make things better.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Further....even though people have licenses to drive, we still have reckless, irresponsible drivers, drunk drivers, etc etc etc...How would this "license" do anything to ensure firearms were in the hands of responsible people...

    This analogy tells the tale pretty well.

    My agency recently arrested a female for her 8th DUI. She has not had a valid driver's license since 2006 and by the letter of the law she has no privilege to operate a motor vehicle for any reason. While in booking, an officer asked her why she keeps driving even though she does not have a valid license and her verbatim response was, "I don't care. When I bail out tomorrow, I'm driving myself home!"

    Criminal indifference CANNOT be resolved by tightening the grip on the law-abiding!
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,746 Senior Member
    I think it would be so much easier if all 50 states had the exact same gun laws (Arizona's perhaps)
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
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