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House generators

LMLarsenLMLarsen Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
Anybody have a whole-house generator? Pros? Cons? Cost?

Dad's wealthy neighbor had one installed a few years ago that is fed by his gas line and automatically switches on and off, but he paid over $20k for it. It's a monster!

I'm just thinking about one to run our small 2500sqft house when the power goes out in the heavy storms we've been getting every couple of summers. Wife is especially sensitive to heat from her medication.
“A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

NRA Endowment Member

Replies

  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Some tool rental places sometimes will sell off a nice generator at a good price, check the ads, private party sales sometimes will turn up low hours units a surviving spouse wants to sell off.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • tennmiketennmike Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Pros: They can keep you going during long power outages. They are pretty efficient now with the new control circuits that manage them.
    Cons: They need to be run periodically to keep them from developing problems. Upkeep can get expensive if parts fail. Installation can be costly especially if you have to get it permitted.
    Cost: Depends on how big a unit you would require. That would require an energy survey by a licensed electrician who is knowledgeable in such matters. The unit would size would be the total amp draw of all the electrical devices you have that would be required to be running simultaneously, plus a percentage over that. Motor start current is roughly 4X run current, so you need a cushion to prevent problems with frequency/voltage sensitive devices; reduced momentary voltage = increased current draw. This can be detrimental to the generator, also, as it would be required to provide more than rated current if you are on the ragged edge of generator amp capacity vs. total amperage draw.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • BufordBuford Posts: 6,724 Senior Member
    I have a 10K generator that will run pretty much what ever I need. I don't have it plumbed into the house with a transfer switch. I run extension cords as needed. My main concern is the fridge and deep freeze, lights AC and a TV would be no problem.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Mike covered most of it, and because of where I live and what I do, I might be able to add a little. What in your home is electric? Electric heating elements are the biggest power consumers in a home as they essentially are a dead short. This includes water heaters, cloths driers, ranges, and coffee pots. Electric motors surge 300% to 400% and are a big consumer for a fraction of a second but your generator still has to be able to handle the surge. Tell me what in your home is electric and how long you may lose power for, and I'll try to give you a solution. How big is your A/C system? If you don't know, on your data plate on the outdoor unit, tell me the model number and the RLA or FLA values. This will tell me how much juice the condensor needs to start. If you don't have the funds to buy a whole house generator to run everything, an alternative is to buy a smaller generator and buy a small window shaker or two to install in your bedroom and living room to hold you over untill power is restored. You'd be supprised as to what you can accomplish with a small 5000kw generator from Home Depot. You can also get an LP or Nat conversion for them (I have one) so that you don't have to hunt around for gasoline after a storm.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Consider what your finite emergency needs are, perhaps running the central A/C is not part of your plans, for the most part emergency lighting, the main fridge, I prefer to also run as much LP or NG appliances as possible to limit complete dependence on electric as much as possible...
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • NNNN Posts: 25,236 Senior Member
    The one I looked at last summer was in a box like case about half the size of a refrigerator
    laying down, ran on propane not included in the size estimate.
    Ran the whole house and was 8-10 thousand depending on the electrical work
    needed to hook it up. It was automatic including the monthly maintenance run.
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Mike covered most of it, and because of where I live and what I do, I might be able to add a little. What in your home is electric? Electric heating elements are the biggest power consumers in a home as they essentially are a dead short. This includes water heaters, cloths driers, ranges, and coffee pots. Electric motors surge 300% to 400% and are a big consumer for a fraction of a second but your generator still has to be able to handle the surge. Tell me what in your home is electric and how long you may lose power for, and I'll try to give you a solution. How big is your A/C system? If you don't know, on your data plate on the outdoor unit, tell me the model number and the RLA or FLA values. This will tell me how much juice the condensor needs to start. If you don't have the funds to buy a whole house generator to run everything, an alternative is to buy a smaller generator and buy a small window shaker or two to install in your bedroom and living room to hold you over untill power is restored. You'd be supprised as to what you can accomplish with a small 5000kw generator from Home Depot. You can also get an LP or Nat conversion for them (I have one) so that you don't have to hunt around for gasoline after a storm.

    All our appliances except the fridge and the washer/dryer and AC are gas. The AC is a five ton unit. We could tap the gen into our gas feed, which would mean permits and an authorized installer.

    Starting to sound like more trouble than it's worth for a few days.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Posts: 10,942 Senior Member
    I saw a 10k one at a local Home and Garden show priced at $5000 installed. I'm sure the 'extras' would drive it up.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • ilove22silove22s Posts: 1,539 Senior Member
    you could do the whole house, but i would look at being able to handler only parts.

    > AC
    > Kitchen
    > hot water heater?
    > a room, like living room and bed room. chances are you spend most of your waking hours in one room.
    > also chances are you wont be using all of the electrical stuff at one time. since you want your wifey to be comfy if/when the power goes out, id just center the gen around the creature comforts.
    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    I have been toying with the idea of solar power as a back up for such circumstances. Harbor freight has quite a descent deal on the solar panels, charging regulator, inverter and everything else but the batteries, which I would just purchase a few deep cycle marine batteries for the purpose. In the case of an outage, I would just manually switch to the solar back up. Higher initial cost (maybe,) but easily pays for itself.
  • TeachTeach Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    I hope you've got several acres to cover with the solar panels, and tens of thousands of dollars to invest. One of my neighbors went with that kind of system- - - -he expects to hit a break-even point with his investment- - - - -in about 15 years!
    Jerry
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    I hope you've got several acres to cover with the solar panels, and tens of thousands of dollars to invest. One of my neighbors went with that kind of system- - - -he expects to hit a break-even point with his investment- - - - -in about 15 years!
    Jerry
    Your kidding me? Is it that innificient?
  • Lonewolf-PeruLonewolf-Peru Posts: 750 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    ...he expects to hit a break-even point with his investment- - - - -in about 15 years!
    Jerry

    ...well, when the zombies start surrounding the house, he won't need to get out to find gas to refill the generator tank ..

    ...but, the real trick would be how to make his food supplies last as much as his energy supply...
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Your kidding me? Is it that innificient?

    Solar is a very cheap way to heat or pre-heat water for showers, you can use scrap plumbing components and store the hot water in insulated tanks....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    A five ton A/C would need at least a 20kw generator to kick it over and once you get up to generators that size the price starts to climb quickly. With my old 5500kw generator I could run everything in my house except for the central A/C system and I could only use one burner at a time on the stove. I bought two small 4000btu window shakers for cooling and it kept my house livable. I just traded some work for a new 6500kw generator so I can retire my 18year old one. Living here on the coast, I've had to live off of my generator on several occasions for as long as five days. If you don't expect to use it very often and for more than a day or so, you could get by with a 5000 to 6500kw portable generator and a couple of small window A/C's. You could get by with spending just under a grand for everything and with a portable generator you would have the option of using it elsewhere for other things.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • BigDanSBigDanS Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    There are wants and there are needs. Everybody wants a whole house backup generator that automatically switches over, and that's really expensive.

    What most people need is to run a backup AC unit, like a wall unit, their fridge / freezer, a TV / sat system, and a few lights. This can easily be acheived under 10kw, on gasoline.

    The most expensive part is a cutover panel on your main electrical panel and getting the parts and an electrician to make it. Wire up those devices you want to run to the cutover, run a cord to the generator and voila! your backup generator devices are running, no extension cords, and an inexpensive generator of $900 can do the trick.

    Whatever you do, do not use propane! A one week large propane generator can use $1000 of propane to operate. Gasoline is expensive, but you can keep 20 gallons in 5 gallon cans around for your lawn mower, and potential generator use, and that's enough to run it for at least two days if you need it. Diesel is the best option, but the generators are MUCH more expensive. Since diesel has more energy than gas and stores longer, it is prefered for commercial generators. A 10 k diesel generator can run about twice as long as a comparable gasoline generator on about the same amount of fuel.

    In our home, we also have a 5 ton A/C unit, but our hurricane / outage plan relies on a backup wall AC unit. We hunker down in there until the world gets back to normal.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Unfortunately we live in one of those delightful HOA communities where they sent out the black Suburbans if you install a window AC unit...
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • BigDanSBigDanS Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    They make portable indoor units now that are good for about $600.00 that would meet you needs. Checkout Home Depot and Lowes...

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    LMLarsen wrote: »
    Unfortunately we live in one of those delightful HOA communities where they sent out the black Suburbans if you install a window AC unit...

    I don't leave my window units installed. They are in the boxes stored in my shed until I need them as they only take a few minutes to install. I'm sure that your HOA will overlook a window unit in place for a day or two and even if they don't, they'll probably tell you to remove them within so many days and by then you likely won't need them.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Chris, let's not forget the battery collection that you get to build and replace every few years along with the requirement of sunlight. Even a large bank of batteries will only last a day or so before it needs some recharging. Solar works for people that want to get off the grid but is not very practicle for emergency applications.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • HAWKENHAWKEN Posts: 1,720 Senior Member
    I had one installed at my Florida home after a week without electricity, thanks to a hurricane. It is a 15KW unit, it runs the whole house. We purchased it at Lowes, for $4000.00. It included the transfer equipment. A local electrician installed it, for less than $1000.00, and it runs on propane. 300 gallons of propane will last for a solid week, at a cost of around $500.00. It turns itself on, once a week and does a self diagnois. We had that much in groceries in the freezer and fridg. You can cut down on the propane usage by turning off eveything that is nonessential; like turning the air off and openiig the windows at night. I plan to have another one installed in my Tennessee home, this year..........Robin
    I don't often talk to people that voted for Obama, but when I do I order large fries!
    Life member of the American Legion, the VFW, the NRA and the Masonic Lodge, retired LEO
  • HAWKENHAWKEN Posts: 1,720 Senior Member
    I had one installed at my Florida home after a week without electricity, thanks to a hurricane. It is a 15KW unit, it runs the whole house. We purchased it at Lowes, for $4000.00. It included the transfer equipment. A local electrician installed it, for less than $1000.00, and it runs on propane. 300 gallons of propane will last for a solid week, at a cost of around $500.00. It turns itself on, once a week and does a self diagnois. We had that much in groceries in the freezer and fridg. You can cut down on the propane usage by turning off eveything that is nonessential; like turning the air off and openiig the windows at night. I plan to have another one installed in my Tennessee home, this year. If you have natural gas, the cost will be signifigantly less.........Robin
    I don't often talk to people that voted for Obama, but when I do I order large fries!
    Life member of the American Legion, the VFW, the NRA and the Masonic Lodge, retired LEO
  • tennmiketennmike Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    I have been toying with the idea of solar power as a back up for such circumstances. Harbor freight has quite a descent deal on the solar panels, charging regulator, inverter and everything else but the batteries, which I would just purchase a few deep cycle marine batteries for the purpose. In the case of an outage, I would just manually switch to the solar back up. Higher initial cost (maybe,) but easily pays for itself.

    Teach is on target about the cost. You will need anywhere from $15K-$40K in solar cell panels depending on what you want to run off them. Marine deep cycle batteries are a really poor choice for storage; you'll want the ones specific to the solar application. Comparing them to the marine deep cycle; the ones you need are three times as tall, twice as wide, and twice depth of the marine batteries, and cost about 10X what the marine deep cycle batteries cost. You need monster storage capacity if you want to run more than just a few CFC lights. They start needing replacement at around 7-8 years, and you need to replace them all at the same time to keep up efficiency. If you plan on running 220V you will need 22 of them(12V batteries). DC-to-AC inverters that run in the KW range for whole house run in the several thousands of dollars range. Good news is that even with the solid state ones you can use the heat off them to heat the house in the winter. The size of the inverters is about what a medium sized 24 gun safe would be.

    The batteries also need to be kept to a temperature range of 55-85 deg. for best operation efficiency. Too cold or too hot and they lose output efficiency; reminds me of Goldilocks and the porridge. The inverter needs to be energized in "Hot Standby" all the time to keep it ready for use. Starting up cold, they will require a warmup period for use if you don't want to fry some of the circuitry.

    I used to take care of inverter/battery systems in the 240V-480V range, and they are labor intensive to keep running. Battery checks with hydrometer weekly, voltage checks daily, electrolyte check at least weekly, and temperature of battery storage room/building daily, and inverter check daily if you keep the inverter energized.

    If you want a faster payoff on investment you need a connection box installed that lets the inverter be connected all the time supplying power to the house and excess to the grid, with automatic disconnect to the grid in case of power failure. More money for controls.

    One more thing. Solar electric cells and hail are incompatible. You will have to build frames with safety glass fronts to keep the fragile and brittle solar cells from becoming waste material.

    Solar electric looks good until you do the math.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • 1965Jeff1965Jeff Posts: 1,650 Senior Member
    After a 4th of July windstorm left us w/o power for 3 days years ago we purchased a 6500 surge 5500 watt gen set . In 2008 we had a ice storm that left the neighbors to the North w/o power for 21 days, we got it back in 6 if I recall. It is wired into a switch that disconnects us from the power co.'s line it cost $300 20 years ago- not sure today's price on one. It uses a pigtail that plugs into the genset and will then run everything plugged in the house. Just remember that your significant other's hair dryer will use 1000 of those watts... We could run house furnace (propane fired) blower ,2 fridges, a few misc lights a freezer, TV occasionally. How long the gen will run depends on demand from house & how large the tank on the genset. Mine is 4gals and would typically run all night without refilling if necessary. One item I'm thinking about buying is a 100 gallon gas barrel to keep gas easier to get to in case I can't buy fuel for awhile.
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    My whole house generator cost $3500. I haven't used it yet or have it hooked in yet, but it will run my 3 ton AC and everything else I need...
    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202714559/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=ge+generators&storeId=10051#.UBmoS6PvwVA
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    One thing for everyone to watch out for-- Those 5000-10,000 watt portable generators typically only have a couple of 110 20amp outlets and one 30amp 220 outlet. Your output tends to be constrained by the outlets. Besides an AC unit, I have yet to see where a 2500 watt unit won't do the job (just alternate running the fridge and deep freeze every few hours). If you have an electric stove, I suggest picking up a little Coleman or propane camp stove to get by on. Your water heater holds 30+ gallons of drinkable water and it has a nifty drain at the bottom. Those big generators suck a ton of gas compared to a smaller one and you really aren't gaining anything from it. I would rather ration my gas and get by with a smaller unit. That, and they cost hella less to buy, are easier to start, are usually quieter, and weigh a whole lot less.

    A $15 80 watt power inverter plugged into the car cigarette lighter can be used for all kinds of stuff-- charging cell phones, charging laptops, charging batteries for cordless tools-- they can even run a few lights in your house if you have florescent or LED bulbs.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • HAWKENHAWKEN Posts: 1,720 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    One thing for everyone to watch out for-- Those 5000-10,000 watt portable generators typically only have a couple of 110 20amp outlets and one 30amp 220 outlet. Your output tends to be constrained by the outlets. Besides an AC unit, I have yet to see where a 2500 watt unit won't do the job (just alternate running the fridge and deep freeze every few hours). If you have an electric stove, I suggest picking up a little Coleman or propane camp stove to get by on. Your water heater holds 30+ gallons of drinkable water and it has a nifty drain at the bottom. Those big generators suck a ton of gas compared to a smaller one and you really aren't gaining anything from it. I would rather ration my gas and get by with a smaller unit. That, and they cost hella less to buy, are easier to start, are usually quieter, and weigh a whole lot less.

    A $15 80 watt power inverter plugged into the car cigarette lighter can be used for all kinds of stuff-- charging cell phones, charging laptops, charging batteries for cordless tools-- they can even run a few lights in your house if you have florescent or LED bulbs.

    Before I had my whole house generator, I used my 5550 Troy Bilt. I made up two drop cords, with male ends on both ends. My house was wired in dual phase, so I plugged one cord into each side of the house. That kept the freezer and fridge running, and provided lights and TV, in the evening. Robin
    I don't often talk to people that voted for Obama, but when I do I order large fries!
    Life member of the American Legion, the VFW, the NRA and the Masonic Lodge, retired LEO
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