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Does Anyone Own a 357 Sig for Concealed Carry???

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  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    Chuck, if you want to buy a .357 sig, by all means have at it. The reason it will work in a .40 caliber gun with just a barrel swap, is because the .357 sig is just a .40 s&w case, necked down to 9mm.






    A .357sig that's slow enough to reduce the chance of overpenetration?

    Ummm................that's called a 9x19mm, and you already have one.

    Eli is correct. The .357 Sig is a necked down .40 S&W case and it fires 9 mm diameter bullets at a greater velocity than a "Regular" 9mm, reaching .357 magnum velocities for the lighter bullet weights, I believe 125 grains.

    Although it is very close in velocity to a .357 magnum, I believe a .357 magnum from a 4" revolver will edge it out, slightly. However, from a semi-auto it's pretty dang good to achieve that. Lots of LEOs/agencies use the .357 Sig, so it has some history/use behind it. What advantages it has over a 9mm pistol firing +P+ ammo available to law enforcement, I dunno.

    Buy whatever you like and can shoot well with confidence.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    .357 SIG? No thanks...I just don't like bottle-neck pistol cartridges.... :down: But that's just me....

    Heck, I got a semi-auto pistol that fires bottle-necked ammo @ about 1600 FPS, a 7.62X25 caliber and the gun is a CZ 52. Problem is the bullet weight is light 80-90 grains. I even reloaded for it, some Hornady XTPs. The gun is fairly ugly, very well made, doesn't point real well, cost me a $100 bucks and it ain't ergonomic, but sure is fun as hell to shoot.........:guns::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,262 Senior Member
    OK. . .Looks like it's time for another "stopping power" lecture. This is largely from the horse's mouth, the horse in this case being the FBI, who has has spent crazy amounts of time and money on figuring this stuff out.

    A "stopped" bad guy is generally defined as one who is down and out of the fight. A handgun will "stop" a bad guy when one of two things happen: (1.) he bleeds out, or (2.) you scramble his brain or sever his spine. For the purposes of this discussion, we can largely discount the latter, because it's pretty well understood and accepted that even a lowly .22 at the base of the skull is only slightly less effective than a small tactical nuke. On the first matter of blood loss, you first need PLACEMENT of the bullet where it will do some good (or bad, depending on whose viewpoint we're taking). After that the bullet needs enough PENETRATION to, as I like to say, "reach the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsie Pop. If, and ONLY if, you've made it deep enough to damage those vital arteries and nerve clusters will DIAMETER/EXPANSION begin to do you any favors, by increasing the size of the hole through which blood is lost and by (slightly) increasing the chance of that bullet encountering something important.

    Get the concepts of "foot pounds", "energy dump", and "hydrostatic shock" out of your dictionary, because, at least when it comes to defensive handgun calibers, they are all largely meaningless. Cartridges striking at velocities of less than about 2000 feet per second cannot displace fleshy tissue rapidly enough to cause any serious tearing much beyond the diameter of the bullet itself. In short, a handgun bullet destroys the meat that it physically touches. The "stretch cavity" is not stretched so violently with pistol impacts that it tears - the surrounding tissue will typically just snap back to where it was - with little ill effect - before the bullet plowed through.

    Addressing the subject of "impact": you feel that recoil in your hand? That recoil that moved your front sight up about an inch and sent a slight shock down your arm? That is EXACTLY how hard you just hit the bad guy - less hard, actually, because that bullet starts slowing down as soon as it leaves the muzzle. If you want to "knock a guy down" you are going to need to deploy a force that can knock YOU down in the opposite direction. Issac Newton - look him up.

    So what does this .357 Sig get you? Well, at the end of the day, it's really nothing more than a 9mm with added range (not a real issue in a defensive handgun), added recoil (which CAN be an issue in a defensive handgun), added penetration (ASSUMING that you're using an identical bullet, which since top-shelf duty rounds are usually engineered for the velocities the round generates, you probably aren't), and substantially higher ammo cost.

    In either case, you'll have a bullet that will reach the FBI's minimum bare gelatin penetration standard of 12 inches (probably with an inch or two to spare), and will expand to about .70 caliber. With more or less equal bullets, the extra velocity of the Sig round will typically do a better job of punching through intermediate barriers (that don't expand the bullet) like plywood and drywall. Since the possibility of going through anything more than a single sheet of wet newspaper seems to be a topic of major concern for you, the round may not be your best choice.

    With modern common-caliber duty ammo, it pretty much all penetrates about 13" of gelatin on average across ALL of the FBI's barrier tests, and it pretty much all expands to somewhere between 1.5x and 2x the original caliber. GIVEN EQUAL PLACEMENT, a .45 will be SLIGHTLY better than a 9mm because the projectile finishes up at .85" to 1.0" in diameter instead of .65"-.70". But then we come to the question of shooter ability - the accuracy of a non-gun-nut with a 9mm will usually be sufficiently better that it will offset the tiny increase in hole size of the .40 or .45 they can't fully control.

    All of the above was a long-winded way of saying "stop looking for the Magic Bullet - it does not exist".
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ChuckXXChuckXX Banned Posts: 103 Member
    To Bigslug; "THANK YOU". That is an EXCELLENT POST. I appreciate it very much. Iam going to stick with my 9's and just continue to practice and practice. I really like the Winchester Supreme Elite PDX-1 in 147 grain JHP. But they are not a good choice for practice rounds as they are expensive. I have been doing alot of practice with Winchester white box and also the Fiocchi 147 grain jhp's too. This has been a great post by all you guys and I do thank everyone again.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    124 gr Speer Gold Dot hollow point in 9mm.

    9mmluger.png
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    Pretty good post slug :up: only one thing I sort of disagree with...
    Bigslug wrote: »
    added penetration
    USING THE SAME BULLET.... added velocity increases expansion, added expansion can decrease the amount of penetration.

    I saw this first hand when trying some 125 "Chief's special" Nyclad HPs.
    Had some powder puff loads the ran across the chronograph at a leisurely 700fps and some running 900. The slower ones penetrated nearly 3x as deep into wet newsprint. The reason was obvious when I recovered them. The 900fps load expanded to ~.6" and the 700fps load looked like it could be reloaded and fired again.

    Now using velocity specific bullets in each, that's a moot point. Just throwing it out there for folks to keep in mind.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Oddly enough, the better penetrating rounds that have poor expansion seem to also be worse at causing enough tissue damage, I thought penetration of 158 grain RNL at 800 fps was pretty impressive when shooting at crap wood trees, but they did not do the trick in real time either....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Bigslug, that was informative.

    I still stand by my personal logic that bullets to not have "stopping power", but rather have "wounding potential". Larger bullet, larger hole, more wounding, etc.

    Also, determining your caliber choice based on "ft-lbs" of energy is asinine. The bullets momentum is a far better measure of its ability to penetrate. Momentum, afterall, is the physical property of a moving object that describes its ability to resist opposing forces.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    OTOH, if a bullets momentum makes it zip through the flesh with little expansion, and a small wound channel, you will see what many soldiers complained about the lack of terminal performance with FMJ ball 9mm, the enemy is shot and is still able to run away...
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    OTOH, if a bullets momentum makes it zip through the flesh with little expansion, and a small wound channel, you will see what many soldiers complained about the lack of terminal performance with FMJ ball 9mm, the enemy is shot and is still able to run away...

    Agreed. There is a happy medium. If you have effectively expanding .45ACP, it is probably some of the best-wounding ammo around.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Bigslug, that was informative.

    I still stand by my personal logic that bullets to not have "stopping power", but rather have "wounding potential". Larger bullet, larger hole, more wounding, etc.

    Also, determining your caliber choice based on "ft-lbs" of energy is asinine. The bullets momentum is a far better measure of its ability to penetrate. Momentum, afterall, is the physical property of a moving object that describes its ability to resist opposing forces.

    The heavier is better, or bigger is better, does have its limitations because it discounts bullet design. Bigger/better is more relevant in handgun rounds, where you're limited by FPS and bullet design and a bigger hole from a bigger bullet is almost a given. But it this concept falls down with high velocity rounds. There is an effect from speed plus bullet design. Elmer Kieth once loaded some 22-250 loads with solid brass rods, which were "wonderfully accurate" and shot them on jackrabits. No effect except the jacks hopped off. So a hole alone won't do the job.

    Can't compare pistols to rifles. Completely different ballistics.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    No one here has compared rifle ballistics to pistol ballistics, and bullet performance is relative to bullet types, compare FMJ ball ammo in different calibers, 230 grain .45 acp mil loads will outperform .38 special 158 grain FMJ ball ammo (PMC), it is when you compare modern loads newer bullet types, in the same calibers that the once less effective calibers start to close the gap...

    OTOH when you start looking at the latest PD rounds in .45 acp, HP +P, you see excellent performance... Given the general terminal effect or inherent lack of performance with handgun ammo in general.

    " Elmer Kieth once loaded some 22-250 loads with solid brass rods, which were "wonderfully accurate" and shot them on jackrabits. No effect except the jacks hopped off. So a hole alone won't do the job. "

    We covered that..... soldiers in Mogo noticed that same effect....

    Edited to add, a friend of mine, Calvin that fought in WW-II told how he tried to hunt deer in Germany with an M-1 carbine and standard Mil ball ammo, the deer ran off, he had no soft point hunting ammo available.....

    We know that bullet expansion is a necessary component associated with terminal performance...

    A narrow wound channel will not always disrupt or displace enough tissue mass to cause enough crush or tearing damage to organs and blood vessels to drop a creature, due to shock of some type....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    The heavier is better, or bigger is better, does have its limitations because it discounts bullet design. Bigger/better is more relevant in handgun rounds, where you're limited by FPS and bullet design and a bigger hole from a bigger bullet is almost a given. But it this concept falls down with high velocity rounds. There is an effect from speed plus bullet design. Elmer Kieth once loaded some 22-250 loads with solid brass rods, which were "wonderfully accurate" and shot them on jackrabits. No effect except the jacks hopped off. So a hole alone won't do the job.

    Can't compare pistols to rifles. Completely different ballistics.

    All my comments refer to pistol bullets in this thread.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,928 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    OK. . .Looks like it's time for another "stopping power" lecture. This is largely from the horse's mouth, the horse in this case being the FBI, who has has spent crazy amounts of time and money on figuring this stuff out.

    A "stopped" bad guy is generally defined as one who is down and out of the fight. A handgun will "stop" a bad guy when one of two things happen: (1.) he bleeds out, or (2.) you scramble his brain or sever his spine. For the purposes of this discussion, we can largely discount the latter, because it's pretty well understood and accepted that even a lowly .22 at the base of the skull is only slightly less effective than a small tactical nuke. On the first matter of blood loss, you first need PLACEMENT of the bullet where it will do some good (or bad, depending on whose viewpoint we're taking). After that the bullet needs enough PENETRATION to, as I like to say, "reach the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsie Pop. If, and ONLY if, you've made it deep enough to damage those vital arteries and nerve clusters will DIAMETER/EXPANSION begin to do you any favors, by increasing the size of the hole through which blood is lost and by (slightly) increasing the chance of that bullet encountering something important.

    Get the concepts of "foot pounds", "energy dump", and "hydrostatic shock" out of your dictionary, because, at least when it comes to defensive handgun calibers, they are all largely meaningless. Cartridges striking at velocities of less than about 2000 feet per second cannot displace fleshy tissue rapidly enough to cause any serious tearing much beyond the diameter of the bullet itself. In short, a handgun bullet destroys the meat that it physically touches. The "stretch cavity" is not stretched so violently with pistol impacts that it tears - the surrounding tissue will typically just snap back to where it was - with little ill effect - before the bullet plowed through.

    Addressing the subject of "impact": you feel that recoil in your hand? That recoil that moved your front sight up about an inch and sent a slight shock down your arm? That is EXACTLY how hard you just hit the bad guy - less hard, actually, because that bullet starts slowing down as soon as it leaves the muzzle. If you want to "knock a guy down" you are going to need to deploy a force that can knock YOU down in the opposite direction. Issac Newton - look him up.

    So what does this .357 Sig get you? Well, at the end of the day, it's really nothing more than a 9mm with added range (not a real issue in a defensive handgun), added recoil (which CAN be an issue in a defensive handgun), added penetration (ASSUMING that you're using an identical bullet, which since top-shelf duty rounds are usually engineered for the velocities the round generates, you probably aren't), and substantially higher ammo cost.

    In either case, you'll have a bullet that will reach the FBI's minimum bare gelatin penetration standard of 12 inches (probably with an inch or two to spare), and will expand to about .70 caliber. With more or less equal bullets, the extra velocity of the Sig round will typically do a better job of punching through intermediate barriers (that don't expand the bullet) like plywood and drywall. Since the possibility of going through anything more than a single sheet of wet newspaper seems to be a topic of major concern for you, the round may not be your best choice.

    With modern common-caliber duty ammo, it pretty much all penetrates about 13" of gelatin on average across ALL of the FBI's barrier tests, and it pretty much all expands to somewhere between 1.5x and 2x the original caliber. GIVEN EQUAL PLACEMENT, a .45 will be SLIGHTLY better than a 9mm because the projectile finishes up at .85" to 1.0" in diameter instead of .65"-.70". But then we come to the question of shooter ability - the accuracy of a non-gun-nut with a 9mm will usually be sufficiently better that it will offset the tiny increase in hole size of the .40 or .45 they can't fully control.

    All of the above was a long-winded way of saying "stop looking for the Magic Bullet - it does not exist".

    Excellent response....one I am tempted to save and post every time someone brings up "stopping power"
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Excellent response....one I am tempted to save and post every time someone brings up "stopping power"


    At one point in time I had a few pages worth of Bigslug quotes saved on my computer, unfortunately it crashed and I haven't the heart to start another collection.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,262 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    :creepystalkerdude:

    I've never met a professional biographer. . .I wonder how many of them are "creepy stalker dudes"?

    Hopefully, I'm doing better for posterity than Gecko45. . .
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    :creepystalkerdude:

    You're just jealous, cause you didn't have as many quotes in my files. :roll2:
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