To "Boom it may Concern" The Gulf full of WWII Munitions/ordnance?

robert38-55robert38-55 Senior MemberPosts: 3,621 Senior Member
Oil and bombs don’t mix, yet there’s millions of pounds of unexploded World War II munitions dumped in the Gulf of Mexico that pose a risk to offshore drilling and the environment, researchers say

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/28/14141378-world-war-ii-bombs-mustard-gas-in-gulf-of-mexico-need-to-be-checked-experts-warn?lite
"It is what it is":usa:
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  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,967 Senior Member
    Boom











    Boom
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,694 Senior Member
    I've lived along the gulf since the 70's and I see this issue crop up every few years and every time the powers to be (EPA, DEP, USAF, Eglin Armament Lab, ect...) determine that it's much safer to leave all that stuff alone rather try and do something about it. It's kinda like watching a movie over and over again to see if it always ends the same way.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    I've lived along the gulf since the 70's and I see this issue crop up every few years and every time the powers to be (EPA, DEP, USAF, Eglin Armament Lab, ect...) determine that it's much safer to leave all that stuff alone rather try and do something about it. It's kinda like watching a movie over and over again to see if it always ends the same way.

    Good One fisheadgib.. I am wondering now if this is some type of backdoor attempt to prevent off shore oil drilling????????
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Just north of Key West is an area that is a huge dump for that old WWII stuff. It's about 40 nautical miles north. Draw a line from Dry Tortugas to Cape Coral, and then draw a line straight North from Key West. Where the lines intersect is the general area. There are also other areas, but this one is a biggie.

    There's warnings on the charts for that area about anchoring or dredging or trawling, and they tell you why. :silly:
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Got out my ocean nav software and looked up a few areas for you.
    Enter the coordinates in Google maps to see the areas.

    N 24 14.611 W 84 34.347

    N 26 58.533 W 85 59.943

    N 27 39.582 W 85 04.246

    N 29 21.070 W 87 13.943

    N 28 29.459 W 89 10.117

    N 28 24.601 W 88 56.314
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,458 Senior Member
    We got plenty of that stuff here too. Back when, if you dropped a bomb off the ship while loading munitions, you left it. Now what do they do when one washes up on shore? Call the fire dept. Because we are freaking experts at bombs.
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    Underwater munitions are bad, but the ones on dry land are downright nasty. When I was on Okinawa in the early 1970's, lots of leftover WW II ordnance turned up pretty regularly. One of my neighbors in an off-base apartment area found some local kids playing with something round and rusty, kicking it around like a soccer ball. It was an old pineapple grenade one of them had discovered in a garden plot. He chased the kids away and called the EOD troops to come pick it up. They showed up in one of those pickup trucks with the woven-cable doghouse in the bed. When they slid it down the chute into the enclosure THE DANGED THING WENT OFF! No telling how many kids would have been maimed if that had happened a little earlier!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Underwater munitions are bad, but the ones on dry land are downright nasty. When I was on Okinawa in the early 1970's, lots of leftover WW II ordnance turned up pretty regularly. One of my neighbors in an off-base apartment area found some local kids playing with something round and rusty, kicking it around like a soccer ball. It was an old pineapple grenade one of them had discovered in a garden plot. He chased the kids away and called the EOD troops to come pick it up. They showed up in one of those pickup trucks with the woven-cable doghouse in the bed. When they slid it down the chute into the enclosure THE DANGED THING WENT OFF! No telling how many kids would have been maimed if that had happened a little earlier!
    Jerry

    Teach that reminds me of a US military plane crash in NC way back in the 1960's IIRC. The story had it,that there were two Nuclear Bombs on board, according to the news reports then the military said they could one locate one of the bombs.. Rumors for years and years circulated NC that probably a farmer had the other alledge bomb in their barn!!! I have don't have details or reference but some of you who were in the Service then might remember the story here....
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Here's the story o the B-52 and the two bombs. One was recovered intact and one disintegrated on impact.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Here's the story o the B-52 and the two bombs. One was recovered intact and one disintegrated on impact.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

    Thanks tennmike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I should not be so Lazy in my old age huh?:rotflmao::spittingcoffee:
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Robert, there was also another one lost off the coast of either North or South Carolina. They never recovered it.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    Didn't one of those "lost" nukes end up in Israel and formed the beginning of the nuke program they don't officially have?
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Robert, there was also another one lost off the coast of either North or South Carolina. They never recovered it.

    That one I wasn't aware of.. Thanks tennmike..
    Teach wrote:
    Didn't one of those "lost" nukes end up in Israel and formed the beginning of the nuke program they don't officially have?
    Jerry

    Good one Teach, I ain't sure but this will give me something to research this week when I ain't doing nothing.. It would not surprise me if what ya say is true, as a matter of fact I would be surprised if it wasn't true!!!!!!!!!!!!! I tell ya what Teach, I trust the country of Israel and their leaders with Nukes, before I trust any other middle east Muslim country with a nuke.... Loose a nuke officially, inform the Israel commandos and their military where its at, and let them go get it... Not a bad plan to help our allies of Israel is it?
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Robert, there was also another one lost off the coast of either North or South Carolina. They never recovered it.

    tenn, you were in the US Navy.. check this out: In the early to mid 1980's my brother was a cheif petty officer on a Nuke sub., stationed in Charleston,SC. IIRC I think his boat was the USS Mendal Rivers.. Anyway he was home on leave one weekend and told me they were loading missiles on the boat one morning and the crane operator dropped this missle in the port/bay water what ever. Anyway the point is this: My brother said that based got locked down in less than .00002 of a microsecond, and a dive team was trying to recover that dropped missle... Base locked down, no one leaves, no one enters until that ordnance is recovered!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have don't have any details, my brother didn't offer them and I didn't ask, just figured it ain't my civilian business to have details on this.. Anyway he said they recovered the missle.. I was wondering who gets the blame and what kind of punishment does the US Navy do in a case like this?
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    I spent a lot of time working around nuke-loaded B-52's and B-58's at a couple of stateside bases, and the security involved was incredible. Every weekend, we would download a few B-52 pilot-training birds at Castle AFB, CA and arm and fuel them for alert pad status. That was a major rework of planes that were normally used for transition training of newbie pilots from T-38 twin-engine trainers to an 8-engine monster where the pilot's seat was 20 feet in the air!

    At Little Rock AFB Arkansas, the B-58's stayed on alert all the time. We were the first response base, along with Grissom in Indiana, in case the ballistic missiles ever got launched. We had 14 minutes' scramble time to get the birds off the ground before the Russian nukes started landing in our back yard!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Robert, depends on the status of the crane operator, civilian or Navy. If civilian, he probably won't be doing that job again for a while. If Navy, it depends. A very thorough investigation into the cause of the missile being dropped will be done. If the crane operator was found at fault the most likely outcome for the Navy operator is a really bad entry into his service record which can hold up advancement and end in not being able to reenlist. For the civilian, that operator wouldn't be allowed to do that job again on the base. If the cause was failure of the crew slinging the missile to the crane for lift, they will catch the heat; a lot of retraining and letters in their service records if Navy. Civilians would get massive retraining, and the company they work for would get to eat the cost of the missile refurbishment, most likely.

    No real problem nuclear wise dropping a missile into the drink. It will require a complete teardown and rebuild. That's a lot of $$$$ at the depot to do. Lots of failsafes on those birds, so no chance of it going off.

    Missiles and torpedoes with nuclear warheads have been dropped over the side a few times during loading/unloading. It's not something that makes the evening news very often, though. Being on a military base, they have the ability to keep things like that pretty quiet.

    Edit to add: When nukes are being loaded/unloaded from subs/ships there is a very large contingent of Marines there for security. They are both seen and unseen, if you catch the drift. They are with the missiles from the time they leave the depot or ship until they are loaded on the ship, or arrive back at the depot. At all times they are cocked, locked, and ready to rock.

    We were loading missiles at the depot in SC and one got stuck on the missile loading rail on the ship at the aft missile house; it was half in and half out of the ship. Didn't take a letter from the President to know whether it was conventional or nuke as there was a full company of Marines on the loading dock and in the bushes. They were not happy about the missile being stuck as it took several hours to get that one unstuck. We didn't finish loading until about 0300 the next morning. Takes a while to offload and reload the full missile magazines. I was there at the aft loading point from 1200 to the last offload/load on shipboard security. I knew what was being loaded/offloaded; interesting writing on those things.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    I spent a lot of time working around nuke-loaded B-52's and B-58's at a couple of stateside bases, and the security involved was incredible. Every weekend, we would download a few B-52 pilot-training birds at Castle AFB, CA and arm and fuel them for alert pad status. That was a major rework of planes that were normally used for transition training of newbie pilots from T-38 twin-engine trainers to an 8-engine monster where the pilot's seat was 20 feet in the air!

    At Little Rock AFB Arkansas, the B-58's stayed on alert all the time. We were the first response base, along with Grissom in Indiana, in case the ballistic missiles ever got launched. We had 14 minutes' scramble time to get the birds off the ground before the Russian nukes started landing in our back yard!
    Jerry

    Neat story of experience Teach, I likes that!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's quite the transition from a T-38 to a first strike strategic bomber...14 minutes' can either be enough time or not enough time in a situation like that. Again I thank you for your service in doing that for me, as a Military service man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's quite a hussle Teach!!!!! You guys must have been in good physical shape!!
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote:
    Edit to add: When nukes are being loaded/unloaded from subs/ships there is a very large contingent of Marines there for security. They are both seen and unseen, if you catch the drift. They are with the missiles from the time they leave the depot or ship until they are loaded on the ship, or arrive back at the depot. At all times they are cocked, locked, and ready to rock.

    I get your drift I never knew that Marines worked undercover like that. And thank you too Sir for doing your part on my behalf,to keep me safe and protected!!!!!!!!
    tennmike wrote:
    We were loading missiles at the depot in SC and one got stuck on the missile loading rail on the ship at the aft missile house; it was half in and half out of the ship. Didn't take a letter from the President to know whether it was conventional or nuke as there was a full company of Marines on the loading dock and in the bushes. They were not happy about the missile being stuck as it took several hours to get that one unstuck. We didn't finish loading until about 0300 the next morning. Takes a while to offload and reload the full missile magazines. I was there at the aft loading point from 1200 to the last offload/load on shipboard security. I knew what was being loaded/offloaded; interesting writing on those things.
    tennmike is it possible that you served in the US Navy the same time as my younger brother did, in Charleston SC early 1980's
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    I know our US Military has some interesting jobs and task they offer but, if I was or were in the military,( which I have never served), if I had to work around nukes, I think I would be extremely careful and cautious and pay strick attention to the job at hand!!!!!!!!!! I would hate to accidently set one of those Bad Boys off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    Robert....you could whack a nuclear warhead with a sledgehammer and not set it off only after the thing is fused does it become dangerous and even then there are so many safety interlocks on the things thy are probably one of the safest pieces of ordnance in the inventory....back in 1971 a maintenance crew dropped a nuke warhead for a Nike Hercules missile on to the concrete floor of the magazine....considering this occurred in the Detroit/Cleveland Defense an inadvertent explosion might not have been all bad....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Robert....you could whack a nuclear warhead with a sledgehammer and not set it off only after the thing is fused does it become dangerous and even then there are so many safety interlocks on the things thy are probably one of the safest pieces of ordnance in the inventory....back in 1971 a maintenance crew dropped a nuke warhead for a Nike Hercules missile on to the concrete floor of the magazine....considering this occurred in the Detroit/Cleveland Defense an inadvertent explosion might not have been all bad....

    Thanks Jayhawker, I never knew, and I am sure this is the very reason that 99% of the public is scared of nukes, because we don't have knowledge on them and haven't taken the time to learn about nuclear fussion/fission..or nuclear reactions and how they work... And your right, a nuke explosion in Detroit, problably won't hurt a John Brown thing,heck might even clean out all the crooked politicians........
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote:


    I get your drift I never knew that Marines worked undercover like that. And thank you too Sir for doing your part on my behalf,to keep me safe and protected!!!!!!!!
    tennmike wrote:

    tennmike is it possible that you served in the US Navy the same time as my younger brother did, in Charleston SC early 1980's

    There were railroad tracks to bring the missiles to the ship, a road paralleled the tracks, and on the other side of the road was woods. Marines were between the tracks and the road, a few on the docks, and a bunch more just inside the treeline. I only knew about the ones in the treeline because I saw them deploy; after they got in the bushes, they disappeared.

    I was out of the Navy before the 80s. I was in 71-76.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Here's the story o the B-52 and the two bombs. One was recovered intact and one disintegrated on impact.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Goldsboro_B-52_crash

    This one also;

    1966 Palomares B-52 crash.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdIzCxGSWo

    The B28RI nuclear bomb, recovered from 2,850 feet (869 m) of water, on the deck of the USS Petrel.

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Shush, I remember the Palomares accidental drop. The US was trying to retrieve it, the Russians were trying to retrieve it, and it had all the earmarks of a Cold War intrigue novel from start to finish.

    Jayhawker is right on target about arming a warhead. Takes a lot of doing to get one armed. Another tidbit of information from the old ones; don't know if it holds true for the new ones. There were a bunch of detonators for the explosive shell, and all the detonator wires were the exact same length to help ensure that they fired at exactly the same time.

    Here's an interesting paper on how much U-235 in Little Boy was converted from mass directly to energy. Good thing the whole mass didn't convert directly to energy or the island of Japan would have disappeared entirely, most likely.

    http://nuclearmangos.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-much-uranium.html

    Of that 64 kg, only about 1 kg actually underwent fission. The other 63 kg of uranium were vaporized and sent spewing into the atmosphere over Hiroshima. And of that 1 kg that fissioned, only about 0.6 g--roughly the mass of a penny--was actually converted into energy. The other 999.4 g were fission products, again spewed out in the massive fireball created by a penny's worth of E=mc2.



    For what it's worth, most of the energy released from a nuclear explosion is derived from the binding energy released as the nucleus of the atom is split.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • tjsvet50tjsvet50 Member Posts: 147 Member
    I remember that one, but not that one was missing. I also remember the two lost just off the Azores, not too sure of the year.
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    It would be fairly simple to bombard uranium (given its availability,) with another chunk of fissible uranium which would in theory, make a nuclear explosion. The other easy (kind of,) way to bombard fissible material is with tri nitro (TNT, easily made in a kitchen,) strategically surrounding the fissible material in a spherical core. The first way I mentioned is basically colliding two fissible fuels to cause nuclear fission which in turn causes a nuclear reaction. The second is by compressing the fuel in a way to split atoms, also causing a moment of criticality which splits atoms and therefore causes a nuclear explosion.
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    It would be fairly simple to bombard uranium (given its availability,) with another chunk of fissible uranium which would in theory, make a nuclear explosion. The other easy (kind of,) way to bombard fissible material is with tri nitro (TNT, easily made in a kitchen,) strategically surrounding the fissible material in a spherical core. The first way I mentioned is basically colliding two fissible fuels to cause nuclear fission which in turn causes a nuclear reaction. The second is by compressing the fuel in a way to split atoms, also causing a moment of criticality which splits atoms and therefore causes a nuclear explosion.

    Neat ghostsniper,, Now fellows I feel safer around nukes, than a brick of TNT AKA like ghostsniper wrote tri-nitro-toulene.
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,557 Senior Member
    It would be fairly simple to bombard uranium (given its availability,) with another chunk of fissible uranium which would in theory, make a nuclear explosion. The other easy (kind of,) way to bombard fissible material is with tri nitro (TNT, easily made in a kitchen,) strategically surrounding the fissible material in a spherical core. The first way I mentioned is basically colliding two fissible fuels to cause nuclear fission which in turn causes a nuclear reaction. The second is by compressing the fuel in a way to split atoms, also causing a moment of criticality which splits atoms and therefore causes a nuclear explosion.

    Your gonna have to explain how it is 'easy' to bombard uranium...... ???

    The explosive sphere has to be absoulutely perfect. If the esplosion doesn't compress the sphere perfectly, the uranium will just escape out an crack in the pressure wave............ Not so easy.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    It would be fairly simple to bombard uranium (given its availability,) with another chunk of fissible uranium which would in theory, make a nuclear explosion. The other easy (kind of,) way to bombard fissible material is with tri nitro (TNT, easily made in a kitchen,) strategically surrounding the fissible material in a spherical core. The first way I mentioned is basically colliding two fissible fuels to cause nuclear fission which in turn causes a nuclear reaction. The second is by compressing the fuel in a way to split atoms, also causing a moment of criticality which splits atoms and therefore causes a nuclear explosion.

    There are only two elements from which a bomb can be made, U-235 and Pu-241. They are 'fissile' isotopes. While most uranium and plutonium isotopes are fissionable and can be made to undergo fission, not all are fissile. Fissile and fissionable are not the same. A nuclear reaction is a delicate energy dance between the freed neutrons and the atom nuclei. The neutron must be at the correct energy level to cause the splitting of the atomic nucleus. The cross sectional area for a nucleus to absorb a neutron is measured in 'barns'. A neutron with to much or too little energy will miss; it has to be at the right energy level to be absorbed. Like Goldilocks, the bed can't be too hard or too soft; it has to be just right. That is one of the purposes of the water in a nuclear reactor; it slows down the neutrons to the 'just right' energy level for nucleus to absorb the neutron and cause fission of the nucleus.

    What you described is a dirty bomb. Kitchen TNT is not anywhere near the purity required for the purpose. There are some high level physics going on to make a subcritical mass critical by compressing it with and explosion, and that explosion must be symmetrical in all respects. A high density neutron reflector surrounds the subcritical mass and the explosive to compress the mass even more from the explosion and reflect neutrons back to enhance the explosion. Even then, most of the core does not undergo fission. Little Boy was a gun type method of slamming two subcritical masses of uranium together to make a critical mass. It was not very efficient, but it was expedient. Tritium enhanced devices use the tritium as a neutron source during the explosion. Tritium is unstable to start with, and sheds those neutrons under the neutron and gamma ray flux produced during the explosion. The majority of the neutrons are released at the 'just right' energy level to be absorbed by the uranium nuclei and cause fission.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    I thought you might come along shortly and clean up my jumbled mess lol. Nicely done, and btw I now have a major headache hahaha. Na, but you knew what I meant..
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