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Police fatally shoot naked student at Alabama college

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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    A single officer taking on a deranged man? What if he gets his gun? Seems the officer didn't have any backup.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    That's right, he didn't do anything first before shooting a crazy acting kid who was naked and unarmed , except say halt or stop and when he didn't the officer used deadly force. Is that reason to shoot him without trying to subdue him first? Come'on man.............Poor officer, maybe he needs to strap on a pair of them trailer-hitch balls because it looks like he ain't got any.

    I'm sorry, a college kid is not an adult and young people do some crazy stuff (remember?). And working in a University environment the officer should have known better.

    I'm usually 100% behind our police officers and have a deep respect for most, but ones like this and even the one who harassed Enzos family have no place dealing with the public.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    College kid not an adult? Does that extend to some PFC in the Army? Are they not adults? They're over 18. Last time I checked, that's pretty danged adult. By the way, even when I was that age I didn't go chasing police. You chase them, you can get shot. Never did LSD, but I figure if he's adult enough to decide to take a mind-altering drug, he should be adult enough to deal with any consequences.

    By the way, how do you know exactly what went on there? How big was this student, or the officer? You want an officer to subdue some crazy person, by himself, and at the same time risk that same crazy person might get his gun?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • GunnerK19GunnerK19 Senior Member Posts: 1,088 Senior Member
    Um, he was NEKKID, no weapon present...
    I'm a Conservative. How conservative? Only Alex P. Keaton has me beat.

    Taurus 605 .357, Ruger .45 Vaquero, Colt frontier commemorative .22 SA, Pietta 1860 .44 snubnose
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Yeah, but if he'd have wrestled with the cop, he coulda gotten his gun. Level 3 security can be overcome. And it's hard to subdue someone when you're running the risk of them getting your gun and there's not backup.

    Plus: hands and feet can kill. The kid was a wrestler, by the way. 130 lb. class, who went to the state championships. How many of us here could take on this sort of person? I know I can't...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • GunnerK19GunnerK19 Senior Member Posts: 1,088 Senior Member
    ......
    I'm a Conservative. How conservative? Only Alex P. Keaton has me beat.

    Taurus 605 .357, Ruger .45 Vaquero, Colt frontier commemorative .22 SA, Pietta 1860 .44 snubnose
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    IM inbound...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • BullgatorBullgator Member Posts: 393 Member
    Have we forgotten about the Miami face eating zombie so quickly???
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,462 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    That's right, he didn't do anything first before shooting a crazy acting kid who was naked and unarmed , except say halt or stop and when he didn't the officer used deadly force. Is that reason to shoot him without trying to subdue him first? Come'on man.............Poor officer, maybe he needs to strap on a pair of them trailer-hitch balls because it looks like he ain't got any.

    I'm sorry, a college kid is not an adult and young people do some crazy stuff (remember?). And working in a University environment the officer should have known better.

    I was signing the dotted line on my mortgage at 18. Just because it's his first time to venture out and try new things doesn't give him the right to go around assaulting people naked, then charging an officer.

    And had the officer backed off and this guy got behind the wheel and went out crashed into a family of four, I'd bet a paycheck there would be a calling for this guy to burn at the stake for derelict of duty. I could hear it now, "the cop had a gun, why didn't he just shoot him?"


    It is sad and unfortunate what happened, but fact is, serious mistakes can have serious consequences.
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • Mr.FMr.F Member Posts: 89 Member
    If he didn't choose to take acid he'd still be alive & several people would not have been assaulted . He was an adult & being in college does not make him any less of an adult responsible for their own actions than some one of the same age who is not in college .
    Jermanator : You might talk about Tauruses around your wife, but that just doesn't fly in my house.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,398 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    That's right, he didn't do anything first before shooting a crazy acting kid who was naked and unarmed , except say halt or stop and when he didn't the officer used deadly force. Is that reason to shoot him without trying to subdue him first? Come'on man.............Poor officer, maybe he needs to strap on a pair of them trailer-hitch balls because it looks like he ain't got any.

    I'm sorry, a college kid is not an adult and young people do some crazy stuff (remember?). And working in a University environment the officer should have known better.

    I'm usually 100% behind our police officers and have a deep respect for most, but ones like this and even the one who harassed Enzos family have no place dealing with the public.
    Lemme see, 18th birthday, oh yeah, that was on Parris Island, after forming, in the red brick barracks swamp side of the parade deck. Was fixing multi million dollar aircraft before the 19th. Went to college to, Penn State with the {expletive deleted} you Marine plan of J. Carters called VEAP, hmmm, don't remember getting a paper saying I had the right to be a menace if I took the decision to get wasted on illegal drugs. Because mommy didnt wean him at 15 does not mean he is a kid at 18. He is a adult with all the rights and RESPONSIBILITIES included.

    I think the same about this as if a drunk drives off a cliff. He made the call when he ingested the drug, he is the ONLY responsible party involved. 3 innocent people were assaulted and the perp got shot.
    Maybe he made a stupid mistake and took some drugs that made him act irrationally when normally he is a good kid. Maybe not, the fact of the matter is we don't know.
    What he did when sober is not part of the story. "he was a normal guy, until he shot 40 people in a Wal mart." What we do know is that he pursued a armed person for 50 feet while being told to stop. Say it was you or your wife. What is the answer then?
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Perhaps the last time that happened to Me, the guy was armed with a machete, I was a LEO in the same country that patch is from.

    Choose not to engage the bad guy before it becomes necessary to dump a full magazine into him.

    By the sounds of the article it was the cop being engaged, not the one doing the engaging. I, too, have encountered a person armed with a long blade. He was intoxicated, but made the right decision to back away from me and subsequently drop his blade. It doesn't always go like that.
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    ? Of course they do. I was not there, but somebody's kid got buried. I treat a couple of ER nurses that deal with intoxicated college students on a regular basis, alot of these kids are just on their own for the first time and intoduced to some partying and they make a bad decision based on lack of experience that evening and ending up getting shot by a cop seems to be a bit extreme, no mace? No baton? no taser? . I always want an officer to remain safe and defend themselves, but there is some obligation to the kid and his family, unfortunately at the time the officer has to go with what he has not knowing the circumstances.

    Yes and no. Obligated how? Yes, officers would rather preserve life, but if they feel their own life is threatend, which preservation of life is more prudent? Their own or the suspects? If the kid over-powered the cop, incapacitated him and took his weapon and went on a shooting spree, the folks would cry, "Why didn't that officer shoot him before he got the gun?" A cop's thought process is so far more complex than people give credit to.
    GunnerK19 wrote: »
    That's what ASP's and PR-24's are for; which begs the question, why did the officer not employ non lethal strikes with one to disable the kid? I don't care how tought the kid may be, several enthusiastic whacks to the thigh muscles might have sufficed enough to dissuage the young man from continuing his actions either by pain compliance or resulting physical inability...

    I'm really trying not to "armchair quarterback" this thing, but if I were the officer I would have exhausted EVERY other option I had to stop the guy prior to shooting him; sidestep, trip, baton, fire extinguisher, anything available short of shooting him...

    Alone. I will repeat that: alone. Short of having a suspect armed with a gun, multiple officer responses grant a greater latitude in the use of non- and less-lethal tactics/weapons. If you are by yourself with a violent suspect the game is changed drastically. If you allow the drunk, aggressive suspect to physically engage you, you have just opened the door to being incapacitated and your weapon(s) taken and used to do harm on others.

    What if the kid had 50 or 60 pounds on the cop who believed he would be quickly overpowered in the student's apparent aggressive rage? What if they had dealt with this kid before and it took three or four officers to wrestle him to the ground the previous time? So many possibles. Too many to factor in after the fact, really.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Lame. I was taught how to sidestep Black Angus bulls when I was 13 with no rate of failure. Even a lard butt cop should have been able to do the same even with a big naked college kid. Maybe the cop was just a scared **** and applied for the wrong job. I'm sure he had a baton or pepper spray.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,637 Senior Member
    Hindsight is 20/20, and you never bet against the wrestler in a fight, but the officer was not aware of this info or any of the other facts that have come out. What cop does not have a radio on him? Retreat and wait for back up, shooting a naked unarmed kid that has not layed a hand on you is going to be tough to defend as an LEO, lawyers are going to ruin the officers day to say the least. Did the guy get his ticket punched through his own stupidity, yep, bought and paid for, I still say the officer could have had some help in the matter of a few minutes, the officer has to live with the decision, not me.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    Do we know for a fact that the officer was NOT aware of the prior assaults - INCLUDING BITING?

    Repeated orders to stop and desist were disregarded, and the deceased continued advancing on the officer.

    Grapple him to the ground? Umm, the guy's NAKED, what are you going to grab onto? I for one wouldn't be in any hurry to close to grappling range with a strung-out, aggressive person, clothes or no clothes, without someone there to even the odds in my favor. THIS ISN'T WALKER, TEXAS RANGER, guys, where some criminal/lawman code decrees that once the bad guy throws his hands up into a fighting posture it's time to put the gun away and go mano-a-mano.

    I never served on a police force, but I did make the conscious decision while working armed security in some pretty rough, dangerous neighborhoods that I would take whatever steps necessary to always go home each night to my wife and kids. In this situation, I can't say that I wouldn't respond the same way.
  • FL180FL180 Member Posts: 58 Member

    What he did when sober is not part of the story. "he was a normal guy, until he shot 40 people in a Wal mart." What we do know is that he pursued a armed person for 50 feet while being told to stop. Say it was you or your wife. What is the answer then?


    I'm not taking sides in this scenario, I was only trying to point out the tragedy of the situation and saying we should not judge either of the two parties involved unless we knew all the facts. I made my comments before we knew this young man was on drugs. You are quoting my comments out of context. I wasn't using the "normally he's a good person" as an excuse for him. There were people on this thread (including you, "chlorine for the gene pool") that were basically saying good riddance to this young man being killed. I was stating the possibility that this was normally a good kid/young man that made a bad decision by taking drugs which led him to act in a way he normally doesn't and ended up dead. If this young man was really a good person, got good grades, helped out at the veterans home, volunteered at the soup kitchen, you get my point. If he was truly a good person and he made a stupid one time bad decision and took those drugs because of peer pressure or "just to try it once" or whatever, and ended up dead, don't you think that is sad? I do. However, I never said that should be a factor in whether the officers actions were justified or not. Completely irrelevant. What I would do if in the same situation doesn't matter in deciding if what this officer did was right or wrong. I don't know what was going through his mind, I don't know what he saw, the surroundings they were in, there are a lot of unknowns to us right now. Plus I'm not a police officer trained to deal with these type of situations.

    I am a pilot. Whenever there is an aviation accident, you always hear the aviation "experts" on tv saying that we shouldn't speculate on what happened until the investigation is complete. Don't go blaming the pilot or equipment or mechanic or whoever else until all the facts are known and the investigation is complete. I think the same should apply here.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,928 Senior Member
    Lame. I was taught how to sidestep Black Angus bulls when I was 13 with no rate of failure. Even a lard butt cop should have been able to do the same even with a big naked college kid. Maybe the cop was just a scared **** and applied for the wrong job. I'm sure he had a baton or pepper spray.

    On the other hand Ghost, you reply is equally lame....it's damned easy to sit back and armchair quarterback another mans actions....you weren't there so you have absolutely no idea of what the officer was ACTUALLY dealing with....perhaps if you had spent some time working in those shoes you'd be a little less quick to apply the "scared ****" label.... From the comfort of your place behind the computer it's pretty easy to assess a situation and decide on the appropriate response....making split second decisions under stress where lives are at stake is something else entirely.

    The kid made a bad decision....it cost him his life...Sad deal but it happens every day, some survive the decision making process and learn to make better decisions, others don't....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,928 Senior Member
    Next time I'm attacked by a naked, trippin, college student, I'll let you know how it works out....Got a pretty good idea though...I'm too damned old to run very fast or far, been in too many wrecks to fight much and that alone kinda pares my options down now don't it?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Lets take the cop factor out of it.

    IF IT WERE YOU in the exact situation, what would you do?

    I would drop trou too, and because I am a caring person I would've given that young man a hug.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    It would have been a different story if the cop had been attacked, wrestled to the ground and in a choke hold or tossed around and the kid was going for his gun or inflicting serious bodily harm on him. But none of that happened did it?

    So he was justified because he didn't have anything but a gun on him at the time?

    No, 18/19 year old soldiers are not fully matured. Sure they will start growing up quick in the Army and deployments, but they still have a long way to go to be what I consider all grown up. I see them everyday. Most are "Young and Dumb" about the world around them and far from "Adults" or acting maturely unless they are under constant supervision by their NCOs. Some mature faster than others.

    Kids do stupid stuff, civilians, college students and military alike. I don't know what the outcome of the investigation will be, I'm guessing the IA/PD will probably milk the LSD "Tripper" aspect for all it's worth even though that wasn't known at the time and a civil suit will most likely be won.

    I've seen folks get more upset on here over a cop shooting someones dog during a call or raid than this kid. Oh well, I guess they all felt "Threatened".

    Did the 130 pound kid pick op the cop and body slam him to the ground or toss him around like a rag-doll? Hell no, we will never even know if he was even capable of that. Was the kid trying to take his gun away? I really don't see the need for escalation here to shoot, very premature decision, to say the least.

    I don't know all the facts or nor does anyone on here, but from the available information, I just don't think deadly force was necessary in this case. Or, at least, shouldn't have been used as a first option.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Next time I'm attacked by a naked, trippin, college student, I'll let you know how it works out....Got a pretty good idea though...I'm too damned old to run very fast or far, been in too many wrecks to fight much and that alone kinda pares my options down now don't it?
    You neglect to look at it from the perspective of an outsider. On this forum, we are gun carrying individuals, some young, some old. It seems that the majority of these threads, the popular vote is to use your sidearm in nearly ANY SD situation. I can understand you old farts not wanting to throw down, but damn, Im almost thoroughly convinced that some of you might convey a kid with a sharp lollipop as needing their card punched. Geez
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,928 Senior Member
    You neglect to look at it from the perspective of an outsider. On this forum, we are gun carrying individuals, some young, some old. It seems that the majority of these threads, the popular vote is to use your sidearm in nearly ANY SD situation. I can understand you old farts not wanting to throw down, but damn, Im almost thoroughly convinced that some of you might convey a kid with a sharp lollipop as needing their card punched. Geez
    You neglect to look at it from the perspective of an outsider.

    In truth, your "outsiders perspective" doesn't amount to a bucket of warm spit - the outsiders perspective is based on incomplete information - they weren't there - so they don't know the drivers that resulted in this kid getting shot...

    I understand that the decision-making parts of the brain of a person younger than their mid-20s is not well developed (Hell, I know guys in their 50s that are lousy decision makers) however, there is a reason stupid hurts... I guess I'm just a little more pragmatic than you.....Good judgement comes from a lot of bad judgement...assuming you survive the judgement making process....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,398 Senior Member
    BC, I have seen 40 year olds acting like children to. Critical word is "acting". If they are not adults, then are you writing your congressman to take away their voting rights? If they can't make informed decisions, then why don't we make the driving age, say 22 instead of 16.

    From the article, the first option was to order him to stop, the second was to retreat while repeating the order, and the third was to stop him. The perp had a lot of time to exercise those options, he chose not to, IAW the video mentioned in the article.

    By your standard, someone must be attacked before they use force against the attacker? Yes people get upset when the cops break down a door of the wrong house and shoot a Lab pup with a ball in its mouth or even a restrained pit bull. No one here that I have ever read, has ever said that a cop shooting a dog that was attacking them or loose and menacing them (for real) was wrong to shoot the dog.

    This person, whom you seem to think gets a pass because he needs a pacifier, made some really stupid choices in his short life. Would I have preferred that the cop had pepper spray and or a baton? You bet. Read the article, cop was at a desk and answered the door, not on patrol. You ever sit with a nightstick on? I tried it on break from watch, doesn't work. Are the campus police issued OC or batons? Don't know, you don't either.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Mr.FMr.F Member Posts: 89 Member
    For those saying the cop should have retreatred & called for back up - What you be saying if he had run away from the naked drugged up naked man who already assaulted a few people & while waiting for back up the guy killed someone ? Wait - no one on a bunch of drugs ever killed anyone though right ? Also - Again - 18/19 year olds ARE adults responsible for their own actions . When I was 18/19 I chose not to take drugs .
    Jermanator : You might talk about Tauruses around your wife, but that just doesn't fly in my house.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    That does it, WMG is back and I hope he charges y'all butt naked or Buffy wearing nothing but his "Special Stall Climbing Boots"...........:tooth:

    Thank you all, it has been an interesting discussion thus far. I appreciate the different opinions, makes life interesting don't it?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,462 Senior Member
    That's what's great about this place, we can agree to disagree, and still be friends. Even our token liberal would still get the shirt off my back if he needed it :jester:
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,928 Senior Member
    That's what's great about this place, we can agree to disagree, and still be friends. Even our token liberal would still get the shirt off my back if he needed it :jester:

    Nu-uh...I mean... I hate you...and I agree with you most times....smileys.gif
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Lets take the cop factor out of it.

    IF IT WERE YOU in the exact situation, what would you do?


    Most likely shoot the naked guy, esp at five feet. But I don't have other options. Baton, taser, pepper spray, or a radio.

    As a lowly citizen, I would be arrested for killing an unarmed man. I would not be put on paid leave.

    God help me if the kid was black.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Nu-uh...I mean... I hate you...and I agree with you most times....smileys.gif

    I will post if I get attacked by any nekkid people, cheerleader merengue dancers most likely !!! (females) :jester:
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Most likely shoot the naked guy, esp at five feet. But I don't have other options. Baton, taser, pepper spray, or a radio.

    As a lowly citizen, I would be arrested for killing an unarmed man. I would not be put on paid leave.

    God help me if the kid was black.

    I think the updated article stated he was without TASER, spray or baton.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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