I need a refresher on Crimping Bullets,Please........

robert38-55

Sometimes, we all can use a little refresher,some remedial training, etc. I need a little refresher on crimping handloaded cartridges. Correct me folks if I am wrong here but this is what I understand to be standard procedures, while handloading ammo:

As a general rule bottle neck cartridges don't really need a crimp but one can put a crimp on them (Personal choice I guess) If these cartridges are to be used in a tube fed magazine or semi-auto rifle, then one should crimp but not too heavy?

Most rifle dies come two die set. A full length de-capper die and a bullet seater die. Does the bullet seater die in a two die set,will it crimp too? Or does one have to buy a seperater crimp die for that operation? What detemines whether or not one should go with a small-base-die? Is it the resizer die that flares out the brass case on a rifle cartridge?

Any straight wall cartridge be it hand gun or rifle needs a crimp?

Please don't think that I have never reloaded before, because I have.. I haven't had reloading equipment or reloading books since the summer of 2008,and I feel I am loosing my skill.. What got me re-charged about reloading I have been spending time at my gunsmiths shop and he reloads too. I also have been watching some of the reloading videos on utube,............ well lets just say everyone has their own way of doing things.. Again I could use a little refresher,and the fact is when I get information and help here I trust it completely. I ain't saying that all information on utube is misinformation, but I have been visiting here way before utube was available....It's funny how I have a thousands questions for my gunsmith on the way to his house, but when I get there, I can't remember a John Brown one of the questions, until I am on my way back home. You know what they say, if one doesn't use it, then one will loose it, and this refers to knowledge and practice too. I have always felt that if one doesn't know or remember when it comes to guns and ammo, then one should ask. Thanks folks!!!!

Big Chief

Test: If bullet will turn in your reload using your fingers, open mouth, insert and bite very hard :jester:

For standard rifle dies..........plus lots of videos on Youtube. You can buy a bullet seating only die and use a Lee Factory Crimp Die, use friction from when you re-size, plus many other methods. It depends on what you want and what type firearm you plan to shoot the reloaded ammo outta.

http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/RM3508.pdf

sarg1c

I reload several diff. Calibers. When reloading my. 308 win. for my Rem. 700, or the 7.62x54R for my M/N' I use my Lee crimp die. Notice I said I do..when loading for the. 204 Ruger I don't crimp. Main reason I don't have a seperate crimp die for the. 204. I do not like to use the bullet seating die to crimp. I like to crimp my huntingloads because I carry them in a coat pocket..I like to add that crimping can create a more uniform pressure in my loads.

sarg1c

knitepoet wrote: »

Robert, MOST of your standard seating dies will also crimp. You just have to adjust the die body down far enough to get the amount of crimp you want.
Personally, the only rounds I crimp are "straight" cases (45-70, 50 Beowulf and handgun rounds) That's mainly because I have to bell the mouth of them to seat the bullet and a light crimp closes the case mouth back down within spec so it will chamber.

Most are,but they roll crimp. I just never liked roll crimping. I really like the Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

Fisheadgib

One thing I'll toss in is that if you are going to crimp bottleneck or rifle rounds, it's a good idea to make sure all your cases are the same length if you want to achieve a higher level of accuracy. If your cases vary in length, the amount of crimp and consequently tension on the bullet will vary and this will make pressure and velocity vary which in turn will affect accuracy.

mkk41

Crimping is a funny subject. Here's some of my rambling thoughts. Best to control bullet hold with neck tension with the right expander plug. If a bullet has a cannelure or crimp groove , I'll give it a light crimp if the bullets seem to go into case neck too easily. But is it really too loose , or tired brass?

A light crimp into a knurled cannelure can also prevent a (loose) bullet from moving in the case neck during recoil.

For accuracy , consistancy in a crimp is what's important. Meaning yer brass should be trimmed to exact length with even beveling/deburring , neck thichness , etc.


Most people seem too use too much or improper crimp on jacketed bullets with knurled cannelures.

Sarg mentioned 'roll crimp' , but these should only be used on cast bullets with roll crimp.

I don't like the Lee factory crimp die for two reasons. They SQUEEZE the brass into the bullet. Brass (even annealed) springs back , copper & lead don't.



Some rifles tend to treat rounds rougher than others during cycling. Some cases have more neck length and therefore more surface friction to hold bullet in place. 30-30 vs .300 Savage for example. The typical tube-mag fed 30-30 lever action probably demands more bullet holding power to keep it from moving during cycling/feeding than say the straight feed of a rotary-mag Savage 99 or bolt action.

Teach

I like to crimp revolver rounds with heavy loads to prevent the bullets from migrating forward and locking up the cylinder. My 300 grain T-Rex rounds in the .45 Blackhawk will do that sometimes. The only other one I use a crimp on is the .35 Remington with the 158 grain jacketed softpoint .357 pistol bullets because they stack up behind each other in the tubular magazine in the Marlin 336. All the cases need to be trimmed to the same length for a crimp to work right.

Adjusting a regular seating die lower in the press will put a roll crimp on the case due to the inside shape of the die. If you don't want a crimp, screw the die down until it touches the top of a case at the top of the ram stroke, then back up half a turn and lock the die down. THEN adjust the bullet seating depth. For a crimp, run the die down until it touches the case mouth and screw it in a little deeper a little at a time until the desired crimp is achieved. You'll need to adjust the seater plug to center the crimp in the cannelure.
Jerry

sarg1c

mkk41 wrote: »

Crimping is a funny subject. Here's some of my rambling thoughts. Best to control bullet hold with neck tension with the right expander plug. If a bullet has a cannelure or crimp groove , I'll give it a light crimp if the bullets seem to go into case neck too easily. But is it really too loose , or tired brass?

A light crimp into a knurled cannelure can also prevent a (loose) bullet from moving in the case neck during recoil.

For accuracy , consistancy in a crimp is what's important. Meaning yer brass should be trimmed to exact length with even beveling/deburring , neck thichness , etc.


Most people seem too use too much or improper crimp on jacketed bullets with knurled cannelures.

Sarg mentioned 'roll crimp' , but these should only be used on cast bullets with roll crimp.

I don't like the Lee factory crimp die for two reasons. They SQUEEZE the brass into the bullet. Brass (even annealed) springs back , copper & lead don't.



Some rifles tend to treat rounds rougher than others during cycling. Some cases have more neck length and therefore more surface friction to hold bullet in place. 30-30 vs .300 Savage for example. The typical tube-mag fed 30-30 lever action probably demands more bullet holding power to keep it from moving during cycling/feeding than say the straight feed of a rotary-mag Savage 99 or bolt action.

Actually, crimping with a seating die is indeed a roll crimp, not really good with a bullet without a groove. The Lee crimp die puts the same crimp found on Federal rounds. I like to throw a couple/several rounds in my pocket when hunting. I don't worry about a bullet working loose and all rounds are indeed crimped at the same pressure assuming you are not using mixed cases. Really can improve accurcy by creating the same pressure in the case....

snake284-1

I agree Fish, in fact I don't see how you can get anything close to uniform results if you don't trim your cases all to the same length. But then I can't for the life of me remember exactly how to crimp with a regular die. I remember Tennmike explained it very well here not too many years back, but I should have copied it and pasted to a file, cause my memory ain't what it used to be and in my infinite ignorance I have forgotten. I used to crimp a lot of my loads, mainly handgun, back in the 80s, but I quit loading handgun cartridges and I have completely forgotten. Thanks for asking this question Bro Robert.

sarg1c

Teach wrote: »

I like to crimp revolver rounds with heavy loads to prevent the bullets from migrating forward and locking up the cylinder. My 300 grain T-Rex rounds in the .45 Blackhawk will do that sometimes. The only other one I use a crimp on is the .35 Remington with the 158 grain jacketed softpoint .357 pistol bullets because they stack up behind each other in the tubular magazine in the Marlin 336. All the cases need to be trimmed to the same length for a crimp to work right.

Adjusting a regular seating die lower in the press will put a roll crimp on the case due to the inside shape of the die. If you don't want a crimp, screw the die down until it touches the top of a case at the top of the ram stroke, then back up half a turn and lock the die down. THEN adjust the bullet seating depth. For a crimp, run the die down until it touches the case mouth and screw it in a little deeper a little at a time until the desired crimp is achieved. You'll need to adjust the seater plug to center the crimp in the cannelure.
Jerry

I agree Teach, I always crimped the .35 Rem, but at that time I didn't have the Lee crimp dies for the .35. I don't crimp my .204, I don't have the crimp die, but I crimp my .308 and when bought my die set for the 7.62X54R, they came with the crimp die. I was glad because I would have bought one . Some one said "crimping is a funny subject", yes it is. Probably, more to personal preference or likes.I like but don't always crimp.

snake284-1

Thanks for knocking out the cobwebs and jogging my memory Teach. I just don't do enough different things to remember all this. I mainly load rifles for hunting and some accuracy work, so I couldn't remember how to crimp.

ilove22s

for me and my toys, as a ROT i crimp everything. because i dont know what gun i will shoot those rounds in. i really dont want to have rounds for SS, mag or tube fed.

once i get into reloading for my 308 tackdrive, then i will probably keep them separate, depending on if i find a dif in crimping, no crimp or whatever. but that will be the only exception.

with regards to rifle rounds, i got the Lee Factory crimp dies. I like the concept and how they work so so far, ive been using them on all of my rounds.

with regards to handgun, i crimp everything. light to moderate to remove the flare.

Teach

Since rimless pistol rounds headspace on the case mouth, NEVER put a roll crimp on them. I've got a taper crimp die for my .45 ACP rounds, and the 9X18 Makarov rounds don't get any kind of crimp.
Jerry

robert38-55

Big Chief wrote:

Test: If bullet will turn in your reload using your fingers, open mouth, insert and bite very hard

Well I would Big Chief, but at my age I ain't got no teeth, north or south on the left side of my jawl, lost a few on the right side too. Now you know why Southern Rednecks are refered to a toothless wonders of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
knitepoet wrote:

Robert, MOST of your standard seating dies will also crimp. You just have to adjust the die body down far enough to get the amount of crimp you want.

Thanks knitepoet, btw that rings a bell somewhere in the old memory banks...
sarg1c wrote:

Most are,but they roll crimp. I just never liked roll crimping. I really like the Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

I do remember now that ya mentioned it sarg1c, when I started reloading for my .223, I bought the Lee Factory Crimp die for that round..... I don't recall any feed or ejection problems.
Fisheadgib wrote:

One thing I'll toss in is that if you are going to crimp bottleneck or rifle rounds, it's a good idea to make sure all your cases are the same length if you want to achieve a higher level of accuracy. If your cases vary in length, the amount of crimp and consequently tension on the bullet will vary and this will make pressure and velocity vary which in turn will affect accuracy.

I can sure enough see how not having all the bottle neck cartridges trimmed to the same length could cause a crimping dilema... When I was first shown how to crimp the guy who showed me how to get started in relaoding, IIRC said sometimes after a few firings the brass will need to be check for stretch, and maybe trimmed to length, and especially if you are going to crimp. I am thinking that any bottle neck type case one should be somewhat extra careful when prepping cases for reloading. I am thinking that bottle neck cartridges,due to the way they head space, is another factor one needs to be aware of when reloading these rounds. The first bottle neck cartridge I ever reloaded was a .270, the second a .223

robert38-55

Teach wrote: »

I like to crimp revolver rounds with heavy loads to prevent the bullets from migrating forward and locking up the cylinder. My 300 grain T-Rex rounds in the .45 Blackhawk will do that sometimes. The only other one I use a crimp on is the .35 Remington with the 158 grain jacketed softpoint .357 pistol bullets because they stack up behind each other in the tubular magazine in the Marlin 336. All the cases need to be trimmed to the same length for a crimp to work right.

Adjusting a regular seating die lower in the press will put a roll crimp on the case due to the inside shape of the die. If you don't want a crimp, screw the die down until it touches the top of a case at the top of the ram stroke, then back up half a turn and lock the die down. THEN adjust the bullet seating depth. For a crimp, run the die down until it touches the case mouth and screw it in a little deeper a little at a time until the desired crimp is achieved. You'll need to adjust the seater plug to center the crimp in the cannelure.
Jerry

Thanks Teach, man that jogs my old memory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Teach correct me if I am wrong, but when I used to reload I crimped all my pistol/revolver rounds..I was taught that a die set that is made to load lets say .357 or .38, the seating/crimp die is manufactured to put a roll type crimp,on the cartridge, and a die set made to reload lets say a 9mm or .40 the die manufacture will make that crimp die to use a tapered type crimp. True or False Teach? I was also taught that a roll type crimp will not feed very well in a semi-auto pistol,Again Teach, True or False? Thanks!!!

robert38-55

Teach wrote: »

Since rimless pistol rounds headspace on the case mouth, NEVER put a roll crimp on them. I've got a taper crimp die for my .45 ACP rounds, and the 9X18 Makarov rounds don't get any kind of crimp.
Jerry

Teach I made a post before I read this one twice. OOOPPPSSS on me!!!! I think I just answered my own post. Anyway I always value your advice and guidance Teach!!! I Always welcome a word of knowledge from Teach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just for my own information Teach, what would happen if a roll crimp was used on a rimless pistol round,by some hapstance chance? Inquiry minds want to know? Thanks....

robert38-55

ilove22s wrote: »

for me and my toys, as a ROT i crimp everything. because i dont know what gun i will shoot those rounds in. i really dont want to have rounds for SS, mag or tube fed.

once i get into reloading for my 308 tackdrive, then i will probably keep them separate, depending on if i find a dif in crimping, no crimp or whatever. but that will be the only exception.

with regards to rifle rounds, i got the Lee Factory crimp dies. I like the concept and how they work so so far, ive been using them on all of my rounds.

with regards to handgun, i crimp everything. light to moderate to remove the flare.

When I did reload I used Lee equipment on a regular basis too. I used a factory crimp die on my .223 reloads... but for the other rounds like .38,357, 9mm .40 I just used what came with the OEM die set.. I think at one time, IIRC I was loading so much .40 that I bought a Lee factory crimp die and a seperate tapered die for that particular round, of course that was just me..

dbrown

Patrick Sweeney wrote an article in G&A Handguns pg. 14 Ammo Shelf. the Dec 12/Jan13 issue. just got it and have not read that article yet.
I usually like his stuff. Check it out.

rwsmith

I've had a long lay off from reloading and am finding that things aren't quite what they were 30 or so years ago. Speer says NOT to crimp bottlenecks (except for tubular magazines) and that neck tension is enough to hold the bullet. I can't help but feel, though, that after chamfering and seating a bullet that I don't need to 'round out the mouth of a case so all is nice and tight around the bullet. I am at present barely 'kissing' the loaded round with the sizing die, but I'm too heavy handed and collapse a case or two. (Probably be better if I just didn't crimp) Anyway, I'm going to get a taper crimp die and do the same thing as with the sizing die just to satisfy my 'urge to crimp'.