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Lace
Posts: 10 New Member
Buying AR-15 for LR Shooting and need help deciding which one... Please
Lace
Posts: 10 New Member
Hello,
I'm new to this and would really like some advice. I am interested in competition shooting and would like to purchase one of these 2 AR's. I like the RRA AHT and the RRA Coyote 20" barrel. I understand there is a difference in barrel twists, example, 1:8 vs 1:9 what would be the difference and is one more accurate than the other? Can anyone tell me the differences between the 2 and which one would be better. I really like the RRA, but I was also considering the Stag Arms 3G model. Any help would be greatly appreciated...
Thanks and Happy Hunting,
Lisa
I'm new to this and would really like some advice. I am interested in competition shooting and would like to purchase one of these 2 AR's. I like the RRA AHT and the RRA Coyote 20" barrel. I understand there is a difference in barrel twists, example, 1:8 vs 1:9 what would be the difference and is one more accurate than the other? Can anyone tell me the differences between the 2 and which one would be better. I really like the RRA, but I was also considering the Stag Arms 3G model. Any help would be greatly appreciated...
Thanks and Happy Hunting,
Lisa
Replies
Also, do you happen to like gladiator movies?
Thank you, and I will feel right at home... (nuthouse) Yes, I do like gladiator movies, along with comedy and horror.
Welcome and thanks for narrowing the field down. Looking at your choices of the two RRA and the Stag....they're looking like middle of the road between 3-gun and Long range.
Longer barrel doesn't necessarily equate accuracy, but will improve your muzzle velocity for those longer shots out to 4-600 yrd. I have a franken-built rig (DSC upper/Bushmaster lower, Tubbs grip, hooked stock, NM trigger) with a 20"x1" thick barrel profile that will make one ragged hole at 100 yrds with boring regularity....that one has a 1:8 twist, but have yet to shoot anything over 69 gr with it.....I usually stick to the 62 gr bullets. This rifle/carbine is HEAVY at about 12 lbs cause it's weighted fore and aft.
My other AR is basically another homebuilt M-4gery (mostly DPMS and Yankee Hill Machine) with the 16" M4 profile barrel, and it performs superbly as well. Have you considered building one to suit your needs as you see them?
Another thing to consider Lace, is what type of rests or bags you would be using. Such as using a Sinclair bipod, you may consider a flat bottom forearm VS a cylindrical one. Do you shoot using your non-firing hand to tuck the stock into your shoulder? Endless questions and options for the LEGO of all firearms....
Lisa, you will need to define "long range" and "competition." Just so we understand each other, to me LR is 800 yards and beyond. I have an AR-15 with which I have competed in F-class, all the way to 1000 yards. It's a special rifle.
By competition, do you mean organized competition such as NRA/CMP Service Rifle or F-class or High Power? These disciplines have their special rules regarding equipment and you need to be aware of them before you go out and start buying stuff.
Service Rifle will be across the course at 200, 300 and 600. It will also have prone at 300-600 and 800-1000. I've done all of those with a different AR-15 then I mentioned above.
F-class will be at 300-600 and 800-1000, with a bipod, rear rest and a scope. I've done that with the AR-15 I first mentioned.
Using an AR-15 in Highpower Match Rifle is not really worth it when you can compete alongside but in Service Rifle.
So, just indicate what you are looking at and then I can answer fully, to the point you will want coffee and reading glasses.
Edited to add: I have heard of a new discipline, something like bench rest for ARs. I know nothing about it and have not see a match around here, yet.
Suffice to say, would the OP be best suited in general with a Stag Model 6 super-varminter as a starter?
If you are only going to shoot it off a bench, or only carry a short distance and shoot off of a bipod, the extra weight of a fat bull barrel will actually help hold steady at long range. Then I would pick a Rock River 20'' Varmint EOP. The EOP eliminates the need for a $75-$100 scope base.......
I appreciate that, wasn't sure what to put since I am really new to this. Again, thank you.
Wow, I didn't realize there were so many different categories. I should tell you haw this started, a friend of mine took me to the range (rifle) to shot an AR-15 and a 22. I have hand guns but no rifles. I thought they were joking about me shooting those, but I pulled up my "big girl panties" and made my way to the bench. I took a few shots and they checked it with a sighting scope and said I bet you can't do that again. I hadn't got a clue as to what they were talking about, they said take 5 more shots and aim for the little square targets in the corners. I did, they retrieved the target and out of 10 shots 3 were direct bulls-eye in the little squares, and the rest were grouped about 1/2 -1 in MOA in the bulls-eye in the center target.
That is when they suggested that I should do LR shooting, that I was a natural. Well there isn't many things I consider myself good at, but this time I felt I may be. We did the 100 yard. I was trying to remember what ammo we were using. I am not sure if we have any LR shooting here in NC. At least not over 400 yard mark. I will have too look into that. The biggest problem I have is a friend of mine is a FFL dealer and another one keeps telling me which one I should buy. I have a decent budge for this, and I really like the feel of the AR-15.
I can try to answer some of the questions to the best of my ability. To the 800 yards, I think that would have to be a no. There aren't any ranges here that I know of that you could practice. (But I will check) I think that would be a lot of fun as well as test your skills. I guess I would like for target practice, and for short LR competitions. I don't think 3 gun is an option for me. I have been trying to look at all the different parts to the AR-15, and began thinking it may just be easier to take all the parts I like about one rifle and put them together with the parts of another. I would also be using a bi pod, and a Nikon scope.
There is also another dilemma, but posting it here, someone may see it. :rotflmao:
I really appreciate all your help, I will be on and off here today. I am trying to study for my mid-terms. I have one tomorrow. :yikes::yikes::yikes: also trying to learn how to use the smiles...
Thank you
Hello Kevin, sorry sweetie, I graduated in Orlando, in 1986. Sorry... But nice to meet you.
Thanks,
Lisa
Spending the money for a trigger that has a light pull will be helpful as well.
Optic wise, I don't use Nikon, but if that is what you have, by all means use what you have.
Pegasus primarily competes in F-Class shooting and he has a lot of experience and is willing to share.
What it sounds like is that you will be involved some mid-range shooting in a non-competition format, with the exception of friendly challenges.
I do shoot one or two LR BR matches a year, but primarily I am LR field shooter, using field worthy equipment (Capable of being used for hunting).
Do you reload or are you planning on in the future?
Do you already have a spare scope?
If no, what is your budget for a scope?
"The Un-Tactical"
My knowledge of AR's at distance is very limited, so about all I can offer to this thread is a hello. There are a few people here that do have a thorough knowledge of it, and I am sure they will have some good information for you.
-Jeremy
Pegasus competes at the national level. He uses a very tricked out bolt rifle custom made to his exacting specifications. Ernie competes on a slightly more modest level but he's very experienced and REALLY knows his scopes for LR shooting. He uses hand guns like you've probably never seen before. Maybe he'll post some pics, (hint hint).
Anywho, again welcome.
p.s. Don't believe a word the Buffco person says.
There are at least two clubs in NC that have F-class and Highpower competitions all the way to 1000 yards; Camp Butner NCNG where the North State Shooting club is located and Surf City where the Coastal Carolina Rifle club is based. However you may be in the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill area if you are a full time student and neither club is very close. But this is all conjecture on my part.
At any rate, LR shooting (800-1000 yards) with an AR on F-class target is really for handloaders and I doubt that you hand load. The reason is that there are no factory loads that will be supersonic at 1000 yards and that’s critical. So, let’s concentrate of 600 yards or less for a complete novice and since you indicate that you will only be able to get to 400 yards, we will limit the discussion at that range and see if we can come up with a combination that will suit you.
You said that you like the AR, I totally agree with you. The AR is a lot of fun to shoot and shoot well. It is just about the most ergonomic factory rifle around and you and change various parts to suit your needs and taste. Knowing that, there are a few things you want to get right from the start and chief among them is the barrel. This is the heart of the rifle and where you need to think about and get what is appropriate for your needs. You can change just about any other part of the rifle on your kitchen table with a few tools but not the barrel, so you need to do it right.
There are two main types of barrel material; chrome molybdenum (CM) steel and Stainless steel (SS). SS barrels are usually found in match rifles and usually in 1:8 twist with something known as a Wylde chamber. CM barrels will come in 1:9 or 1:7 twists and may be chrome-lined. They will be chambered in 5.56 NATO or .223 Remington. The above is “usual” but there are exceptions, though I have not seen a 1:7 or 1:9 SS barrel so far. But then again, I have not seen everything. You definitely want a 1:8 or 1:7 twist to handle the longish 77SMK bullet and if ever you get into handloading, or can find some load 80gr bullets, the rifle will stabilize them properly.
CM or SS is fine, either one can be as accurate as the other. However, I would suggest that you will have an easier time of finding an SS barrel in 20 or better yet 24 inch, with a 1:8 twist and a Wylde chamber than if you looked for these features in a CM barrel. You want the 1:8 (or faster) twist to handle the longer bullets. You want a heavy (bull) barrel to soak up the heat and thus prevent the bullets from being flung all over the place. You want the Wylde chamber because it is designed to be tighter than the NATO chamber yet still allow the use of longer bullets without pressure issues due to its longer leade. You want a 20 or 24 inch barrel for the increase in velocity for the bullets, longer barrels create higher muzzle velocities with the attendant bonus of reducing muzzle blast. Also, on a bipod, the 24 inch barrel handles just as well as a shorter barrel. My match AR has a 26 inch SS 1:7.7 twist in a special 556 NATO Match chamber. I happen to like stainless steel for my barrels.
So 20 to 24 inch SS heavy (bull, whatever they call it) barrel in a Wylde chamber twisted 1:8.
The fore end, the assembly that surrounds the barrel, needs to be free-floated. This means this assembly does not touch the barrel so when you install a bipod on the rifle, the barrel is not affected.
You want a flat top so that you can easily mount a scope. I happen to like Nikon scopes myself, but I do have other brands. I would suggest something with a magnification top end in the 20-some X and with target turrets. Nikon has Buckmasters in 6-18 that could do well, but they also have Monarchs in 5-20, 6-24 and 8-32 that are just awesome, but they will cost more. There are myriad scopes from other brands that will work well also. Nikon sells a one piece scope mount that would be perfect for this setup.
The rest of the rifle is pretty much stock; you may want to look at different stocks, but not knowing if you are going to shoot prone or from a bench, I would start with the regular A2 stock, unless a rifle you like has a good collapsible stock that you can easily adjust to suit you.
We can also talk about triggers, and here you would look for something called a National Match trigger or some such. You want something better than the milspec (Military Specification) trigger.
We can talk about ammo next, but let’s see if you have questions about what we have covered so far.
Between the two rifles you mentioned, I would look at another RRA, a 24 inch Varmint A4. It’s actually cheaper that the ones you listed and it has a free float handguard, an RRA two stage trigger and a 1:8 twisted SS bull barrel. I would select the bead-blasting for the barrel to help with heat removal. Also, look at the buttstock options, there are some interesting ones there. This rifle would be ready to go out of the box, just add scope and bipod and kick some butt.
The NRA sets the guidelines. Ya can find out lots on the CMP and NRA websites.
Service rifle is basically an as-GI-issued M-16 or AR-15.
High Power means ya can make certain modifications.
Get good in these classes , out to 600yds , and go from there.
Wow Pegasus, that is a world win of knowledge and thank you. I can see that if that is what you can give when you are short on time I will definitely have to stock up on the Diet Mt. Dew, and 2 LARGE bags of M & M's. I will look into the varmint. The Nikon scope I have is 4x16x42 M223 BDC, in fact I ordered it several weeks ago and still waiting on it. I do reloads, I have tried 55 gr Hornady boat tail hollow point, and 69 gr Nosler custom competition boat tail hollow points. I haven't tried anything else yet. I was shooting a Colt LE 6920 MP-R 223.
I live in the Greensboro area, and go to UNCG, but I only have one semester left there and then may... and I go say may (stress goes on the may) ... go to NCS. Not sure at this time... I just looked up the North State Shooting Club, and no joke it is only an hour from me.... Yeah I think I will be doing long range, they go up too 1000 yards. I will look at all the information you have given me, if you think of an in between option please let me know. The place I go shoot now the longest he has is 200 yards. But a friend of mine is part of Piedmont Handgunners Association in Linwood, they have high power rifle competitions I think up to 600 yards.
The one I was originally interested in was the Stag 3G model, and then I went to the RRA ATH, and many more. I was also looking at the RRA 20" Predator Pursuit. I have a question would an 18" barrel preform as well as a 20" barrel if they are both heavy and SS? If all the other variable were the same. I think when I was doing my research on the AR's the varmint didn't have a muzzle break or flash hider, whatever that thing is called. Doesn't that help with reduce the recoil? I am not very big so that is why I was wondering.
I again say thank you for your knowledge and your time, it is greatly appreciated and I am glad I joined. I will try to check back in later have to study for my mid-terms.
You'll want to avoid chrome-lined barrels because they run a greater risk of poor accuracy (can't get the chrome plating even, could cause problems) but if you go with stainless you won't get a chrome-lined barrel anyway because it's done primarily in military firearms for longer life and corrosion resistance under harsh conditions, something stainless will give you already. The chrome Pegasus was referring to was chrome-moly steel, a type of alloy.
P.s. Toldja you'd need snacks and refreshments.......and that was a short one!
1st attempt at posting pics, bear with me.:tooth:
The Butner boys did very well at last month's Nationals in Raton. I met a few of them and they are extremely nice. I can introduce you to some of them when you get ready to go there.
If you heart is set on 1000 yards as the ultimate goal, you may want to rethink your plans about an AR. I did that for a few years but my AR was far above anything you can buy as a rifle from the regular or even the advanced shops.
For the same kind of money you are currently thinking for you AR, you can get a Savage F-T/R in .308 that is ready for LR competition out of the box. The only thing you would need is a bipod and a scope and the assorted shooting paraphenalia. I could then explain the various loads and the Butner crew could help you also.
If your heart is still set on an AR, then just concentrate on 600 and less and do get the 24 inch barrel to get every last bit of velocity you can get. Since you handload, you will need a crash course in handloading for competition and then you need to look at 80 grain bullets. This will be like drinking from a fire hose.
Ok, I have to go, let's chat later.
It is a lot of fun.
There are a couple of different shooting disciplines that go to 600 and 1000 yards.
"The Un-Tactical"
WOW!!! A woman that likes guns and shooting and knows how to reload??? Are you married??? Oh well, I am, so I shouldn't have asked. But if you aren't some guy could sure hit the jack pot. If you are, some guy already did...
Actually, my wife likes to shoot and she is a fisherwoman from hell. She does it all so I didn't do too bad myself.
Anyway, welcome to the Zoo.