Peaceful Afghan City Fears War After US Pullout...

robert38-55

I saw this article this morning on the web. Could happen I suppose,remember what happened when we pulled out of Vietnam? I know those are two entirley different situations then and now but the common factor is we have to leave Afghanistan.

'Everything will go back to the early 1990s, when there was a civil war among the mujahedeen groups'

HERAT, Afghanistan — Women in Converse sneakers jog untrammeled — if still in full, flowing chadors — in this western Afghan city’s biggest park, enjoying freedoms rarely witnessed in the rest of Afghanistan.

Rich businessmen, refugees for a few days of “picnic” from more violent Kandahar, pull on apple-scented shisha pipes like lotus eaters in the pagodas of the local pleasure garden. Unwary for once of kidnappers or suicide bombers, they punctuate the night with hoots of laughter.

Herat, an ancient trading city of minarets and wide avenues in the brown borderlands of western Afghanistan, has probably advanced further than any other in this country toward modernity over the past 10 years. There is a quiet and firm belief here that if any place can ride out the coming economic and security turbulence as international forces and money depart, it will be this city.

Yet there are still whispers of encroaching violence, tremors of economic downturn, calls by a local strongman to rearm against the Taliban, conservative opposition to modernization — and doubt.

“War will start,” said Ghulam Reza, a slight man with a gray beard and turban, an old mujahedeen fighter who had brought his two grown-up daughters and their husbands to the Citadel, one of Herat’s landmarks.

It's a pretty good sized article here is the link for more information.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49881971/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/?ocid=msnhp&=4

bisley

It is inevitable. The terror organizations will be operating with impunity, within months after our guys leave, plus they will have lots of goodies that we leave and a thorough knowledge of the tactics that were effective against them.

It's a sad state of affairs when we send our best Americans to fight a war that they can't finish because the politicians make impossible rules of engagement and the home folks get tired of it and elect somebody who promises to bail out.

Might as well bring 'em all home right now, and save some American lives - leaving on a certain timetable that the enemy knows is idiotic. Nothing will be gained by staying, if the enemy can just sit back and relax till their opposition is gone, of its own accord.

Big Chief

On one of my two deployments to Afghanistan, a school teacher was beheaded in front of his family for teaching young girls how to read and write. Their treatment of women is so oppressive, it's hard to believe. Even without the Islamofascist terrorist, life is the Stone Ages for women, albeit some minor gains have been made in some places where they can even go to the market unaccompanied as long as they wrap up like a Mummy and don't talk to men not in their family.

robert38-55

bisley wrote: »

It is inevitable. The terror organizations will be operating with impunity, within months after our guys leave, plus they will have lots of goodies that we leave and a thorough knowledge of the tactics that were effective against them.

It's a sad state of affairs when we send our best Americans to fight a war that they can't finish because the politicians make impossible rules of engagement and the home folks get tired of it and elect somebody who promises to bail out.

Might as well bring 'em all home right now, and save some American lives - leaving on a certain timetable that the enemy knows is idiotic. Nothing will be gained by staying, if the enemy can just sit back and relax till their opposition is gone, of its own accord.

Thats probably the best thing to do:agree::that:

Big Chief

Re: Peaceful Afghan City Fears War After US Pullout...
On one of my two deployments to Afghanistan, a school teacher was beheaded in front of his family for teaching young girls how to read and write. Their treatment of women is so oppressive, it's hard to believe. Even without the Islamofascist terrorist, life is the Stone Ages for women, albeit some minor gains have been made in some places where they can even go to the market unaccompanied as long as they wrap up like a Mummy and don't talk to men not in their family.

I will never be convienced and I never was convienced from the getgo, that these Islamic Muslims,practice peace and harmony regardless of what they say there Koran teaches!!!!!!!!!!!! The Muslims are some sick degenerates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jayhawker

For those who are being or fear they are going to be oppressed....I offer a quote from the late, great Sam Kinison...... "MOVE!!!!!"

tennmike

They know the U.S. is going to be leaving, and when. Time to arm up, load the cannon with grapeshot, and prepare to repel boarders with extreme prejudice. And selectively cull the herd of mavericks in their midst that attempt to revert back to the 5th century. And that includes the muleears and itoldyasos in the mosques that try to rule by religion and fear. Time for them to man up (and woman up), or bug out.

robert38-55

Jayhawker wrote: »

For those who are being or fear they are going to be oppressed....I offer a quote from the late, great Sam Kinison...... "MOVE!!!!!"

Isn't that easier said than done in a lot of cases Jay?

robert38-55

tennmike wrote: »

They know the U.S. is going to be leaving, and when. Time to arm up, load the cannon with grapeshot, and prepare to repel boarders with extreme prejudice. And selectively cull the herd of mavericks in their midst that attempt to revert back to the 5th century. And that includes the muleears and itoldyasos in the mosques that try to rule by religion and fear. Time for them to man up (and woman up), or bug out.

I see what your getting at tennmike. Again I see what Jayhawker was getting at too. What in your guy's opinion should have been done the 10 years we were there? The reason I ask is this: (1). I have never been in the Military. (2). I don't understand sometimes how politics and military thinking comes together for the greater good. I could use some education and enlightenment on this subject. Thanks..

Jayhawker

robert38-55 wrote: »

Isn't that easier said than done in a lot of cases Jay?

Just depends how serious you are about not being oppressed......

tennmike

robert38-55 wrote: »

I see what your getting at tennmike. Again I see what Jayhawker was getting at too. What in your guy's opinion should have been done the 10 years we were there? The reason I ask is this: (1). I have never been in the Military. (2). I don't understand sometimes how politics and military thinking comes together for the greater good. I could use some education and enlightenment on this subject. Thanks..

First, you have to go back to the beginning, to the first year we were there and what the mission was to accomplish. When you have this piece of information firmly in your grasp, trace where that mission jumped the tracks and went off into terra incognita due to mission creep, and the inevitable meddling of our political leaders and their irrepressible fancy for dabbling in that failed old notion of "nation building". We've had no success at dragging the unwilling into the present anywhere we've tried; they prefer their present state of existence to any benefit of that 'new state' offered no matter how bad their present state of being seems to us. The notion that we can lead people to a place they are unwilling to follow is obviously a flawed idea. Cultural dogma trumps political dogma, every time. Throw in several religious factions of the same religion, and there is no hope whatsoever.

We should have stayed on the stated mission goal, and accomplished it, or left within a year. That mission was to find and capture or kill Bin Laden. Staying past a year gave the politicians room to meddle and collapse the original purpose. Nation building is a fool's errand practiced by fools. Human nature is an odd thing. People don't need a lot to be happy, but one thing people demand with vigor is to be left alone. We should leave them alone unless they ask for help to progress. Meddling in the affairs of others is always fraught with peril, be it with family, friends, or nations.

Teach

Well said, Mike! Once the local politicos learn they can milk the USA cash cow, they will hop onto the gravy train and ride it to the end of the line. They're a lot like our home-grown parasites in that way- - - - - -sit back and let the money roll in, and do just enough of what the givers of cash demand to assure a continued supply of greenbacks while begging for more the whole time. The smart ones will have huge stashes of money in Swiss banks to finance their "exit stage right" to somewhere they can enjoy their ill-gotten gains. The average citizens will be left to deal with the new advent of the terrorists' takeover once we're gone.
Jerry

tennmike

Jerry, Afghanistan reminds me a lot of that thing we got involved in in the 1960-1970s period. Same old crap of politicians micromanaging from their comfortable offices and hamstringing the people in the field. We bombed the wrong damned country right up until the end of the war until someone figured out where the enemy came from, and from where they were supplied. If we'd kept it up, they'd have surrendered, but the politicians interjected themselves again. Same nutbar ROE that puts our guys 'n' gals in danger, too. Same taking territory from the enemy and then abandoning it to be reoccupied. Same old propping up a worthless leader whose sole reason for being in power is that he can be manipulated...........to a point.

Just another reason to love my country and HATE the insipid fools in the government running it into the ground. Either fight to win with the enemy's unconditional surrender, or stay the heck out. Half measures are, and have been, entirely unsatisfactory.

Teach

Yep, I spent a bunch of years working on autopilots, compasses, celestial trackers, and other electronic equipment so those B-52's could find an obscure set of coordinates and drop tons of bombs on a "suspected ammo dump" or some other figment of the politicians' imagination. On the rare occasion that we got some secondary explosions for our efforts, it was hailed as a great victory! Each plane carried nearly 20 TONS of bombs, and we launched three of 'em at a time every four hours, 24/7, for years! With a little pre-planning, there could have been a 50-mile-wide strip of land that looked like a plowed field with nothing whatsoever alive in it all the way across the country!
Jerry

bullsi1911

It's kinda like we said when Obama and the left were calling for a timeline and a deadline for withdrawal:

If we tell them when we are leaving, they will just wait till we leave and then come back with a vengeance.

Oh well. We warned em.

tv_racin_fan

tennmike wrote: »

First, you have to go back to the beginning, to the first year we were there and what the mission was to accomplish. When you have this piece of information firmly in your grasp, trace where that mission jumped the tracks and went off into terra incognita due to mission creep, and the inevitable meddling of our political leaders and their irrepressible fancy for dabbling in that failed old notion of "nation building". We've had no success at dragging the unwilling into the present anywhere we've tried; they prefer their present state of existence to any benefit of that 'new state' offered no matter how bad their present state of being seems to us. The notion that we can lead people to a place they are unwilling to follow is obviously a flawed idea. Cultural dogma trumps political dogma, every time. Throw in several religious factions of the same religion, and there is no hope whatsoever.

We should have stayed on the stated mission goal, and accomplished it, or left within a year. That mission was to find and capture or kill Bin Laden. Staying past a year gave the politicians room to meddle and collapse the original purpose. Nation building is a fool's errand practiced by fools. Human nature is an odd thing. People don't need a lot to be happy, but one thing people demand with vigor is to be left alone. We should leave them alone unless they ask for help to progress. Meddling in the affairs of others is always fraught with peril, be it with family, friends, or nations.

Well said sir. I said something like that to my family some time ago. You go in, do the job and get out. You prosecute war with extreme predjudice.

robert38-55

Well!!!!!!! Thanks a million+2 tennmike and Teach!!!!!!!!!!! What you boys wrote I can finally get a good handle on what is happening now,not that I wasn't informed before,but you guys have eliminated all the BS and Rhetoric that I get when I try to ask others the same questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tennmike I think most of us (Myself included,and sorry for this) have/had forgotten the original mission statement and objective,you know its been 10yrs, and the things one can forget in 10yrs especially at my age. Teach, I kind of knew that there were US dollars involved in this,but I wasn't aware of the level of local coruption as you explained. I mean I knew there was coruption,but had no idea it was that deep/bad!!!!!
.... Again I can't thank you guys enough for the replies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great fellows!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have one more question then I have to sign off,going to Colorado this morning for Thanksgiving,back in a few days.....

The next question I have, and I though of this after reading Teach's reply: Why do our US politicians have to meddle in Military affairs? Is it because they control the purse strings for our Fighting men and women, or are they just arrogant,and have to perfom what I call 'Job Justification?' And I understand the points made about Nation building but didn't we do Ok with that after WW II in Germany,Japan? Look at those countries now,seems like they are in better shape than we are.

ETA: I went back and re-read your guy's post. I think I just discovered the answer to my own questions:

tennmike wrote:

We've had no success at dragging the unwilling into the present anywhere we've tried; they prefer their present state of existence to any benefit of that 'new state' offered no matter how bad their present state of being seems to us. The notion that we can lead people to a place they are unwilling to follow is obviously a flawed idea. Cultural dogma trumps political dogma, every time. Throw in several religious factions of the same religion, and there is no hope whatsoever.

Teach wrote:

Well said, Mike! Once the local politicos learn they can milk the USA cash cow, they will hop onto the gravy train and ride it to the end of the line. They're a lot like our home-grown parasites in that way- - - - - -sit back and let the money roll in, and do just enough of what the givers of cash demand to assure a continued supply of greenbacks while begging for more the whole time

Thanks again fellows,even my feeble mind can actually understand this now.

Teach

Robert, there's also another difference- - - -WE WON WW II! Japan, Germany, Italy, etc. were soundly beaten to the point of being unable to resist, and we dictated the circumstances of their recovery. There was none of the "declare victory and go home" stuff that's happened every time we've gotten involved in another country's affairs since then. It's like battling a grizzly bear- - - -the contest isn't over when you're tired of fighting- - - -the fight continues until he's dead or unable to resist any more. Dead enemies don't climb out of the graveyard and sucker-punch anybody!
Jerry

Fisheadgib

I find it hard to sympathize with those people as they can pick up arms and resist any oppresive rule just as we did in 1776. I get kinda tired of counties wanting someone else to solve their problems for them. If they don't have the stones to fight for what they want, they don't deserve it.