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.22 lr vs .25 acp for PD

kmeierskskmeiersks MemberPosts: 121 Member
Browsing the LGS I came accross 2 pocket guns in .22 and .25. Little Berettas. The thought occurred to me that the lowly .22 could make a better PD round than the .25. It has more velocity, better penetration, and you can afford to feed it more. I own both and must say I like the .22 more. The .25 imo is as usefull as a dead horse. What y'all say?
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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,877 Senior Member
    Rimfire ammo is notorious for giving an occasional dud round. Centerfire, on the other hand, isn't.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    If you have to go that small, get a .32 S&W long or a .22 WMR. Both the .22 and the ,25 ACP are poor SD guns in my opinion. Better than nothing, but not effective.

    In a 3 inch barrel the 25 ACP makes about 75 FPE. I have a pellet gun that makes more energy than that...

    25auto.png

    The .22 LR is not any better...

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • kmeierskskmeiersks Member Posts: 121 Member
    Todays rimfire ammo is pretty darn good though. Im just saying the .25 is overshadowed by the .22. To get the .25 to penetrate you need FMJ or TMJ. But any .22 Hp will penetrate better and expand. Neither have alot of energy but tissue damage is just as important in my book.
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,507 Senior Member
    jmo,

    any firearm is better than nothing. how good is your HTH combat techniques?
    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,463 Senior Member
    Any of those two should be only used for PD if it is a last ditch resort.

    How bad is your PD plan if a last ditch resort is your plan.
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
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  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Your forgetting one major advantage that the 25acp has. After you shoot a bad guy with it and piss him off, the 25 pistol frame has more weight which has a better advantage of rendering said bad guy unconscience once you throw it at him. Lol. Jk
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,576 Senior Member
    Did a penetration test on a telephone book with a .22 LR and a .25 ACP. The .22 did a LOT better, which I didn't expect. But you can get a .380 now as small or smaller than the Beretta DA .22s.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,576 Senior Member
    I can't remember the last failure I had with a clean .22. If you're getting them, then you need to clean the chamber of your .22 or change ammo.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ace7644ace7644 Member Posts: 55 Member
    I remember watching an episode of "I almost got away with it" in which a murder carjacked a couple and made them drive him toward Mexico. The husband, in an attempt to get away took out his .22 pistol and shot the bad guy in the chest 3 times from about 6 feet away. The bad guy then got in the car and took off. About 6 HOURS later, he had to pull over and get medical attention.
    (also right after taking the 3 rounds, he tried to shoot the husband point blank but his gun jammed.)

    moral of the story... .380 and no less!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,466 Senior Member
    Neither of them are reliable defensive rounds. But, I'd take the .22lr in a no choice situation.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LerchessLerchess Senior Member Posts: 550 Senior Member
    Between those 2, I'd go with the .22 LR using CCI ammo as it is rare for them to make duds.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    They now make .380s that are smaller than the Berettas and 9mms that aren't much bigger, so I really wouldn't go with either one.


    If I HAD to pick one however, I'd go with the twenty-five. Along the same lines of some gun is better than no gun.....some projectile is better than no projectile. While yes, the .25 might not get the job done, I've seen too many rimfires that didn't have primer in the rim, (even CCI's and a few "match" brands as well) to put any kind of real trust in them.
  • rallykidrallykid Senior Member Posts: 657 Senior Member
    I had one of the beretta .25's and it was ok, nothing spectacular. The downside is they have no extractor so remember of you do have a misfire you have to flip the barrel up and remove the round, lock the barrel back down and then work the slide to chamber another round. Not what you want in a self defense gun. It was also extremely wide and heavy for such a small caliber. If you have to have a mouse gun then buy an LCP or something similar. .380 is not my first choice for defense but it is a lot more firepower than a .22 or .25 in the same size or even smaller package. If you have to have a .22 or .25 then buy something with a traditional operating system with an extractor. If you have to have a beretta then get one but I would not trust either of those calibers or that gun as a defensive carry weapon.
    No, I do not have a pink fuzzy bunny fetish but apparently my Facebook hacking wife does.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    I have a Bauer 25 that is completely reliable. Obviously it is not my primary PD gun, but it is a perfect pocket/summer gun.

    When I practice with it, I only target the face at close range. I understand its limitations.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    If I had to choose between the two, I'd trade either one for a single shot 12 ga. flare gun. Shoot the perp in the crotch with it. Hard to get a good robbery/whatever going when your junk is getting well done. :silly: :tooth:

    I tend to think outside the box.....................in a completely different room.
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  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,466 Senior Member
    I've seen a bullet from a .25 ACP go through a fold in a jacket someone was wearing.......strike a ceiling panel.......and fall to the ground.

    Wasn't impressed.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I've seen a bullet from a .25 ACP go through a fold in a jacket someone was wearing.......strike a ceiling panel.......and fall to the ground.

    Wasn't impressed.


    Not really related.......If you ever happen to see my uncle without his shirt on, you'll notice 7 little dots on his stomach, if you were to ask him about the dot's, he'll give you a story about, not only the inadequacy of the .25acp, but also his stupidity.


    Before he married my aunt (also an idiot), he liked to cheat on his wife (still does), upon being caught for the umpteenth time by his then wife, she pulled a little .25 on him. He quickly, calmly, and intelligently defused the situation by telling her, "B!%(#", you ain't gonna shoot me, you ain't got the guts."

    Hence the 7 little dot's on his stomach and my belief that the .25 is a piss poor defensive cartridge.
  • rbsivleyrbsivley Senior Member Posts: 1,255 Senior Member
    I recently got a Beretta .22 for my grandkids to shoot on the range. The Ruger MkII is to big for some of them and I know it ain't a target pistol but when you're seven and able to pop the balloons on the target it's pretty fun. I agree with rallykid it's a little wide for a pocket pistol plus the extra mags aren't cheap.
    Randy

    Rank does not concur privileges. It imposes responsibility. Author unknow
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 12,046 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »

    Hence the 7 little dot's on his stomach and my belief that the .25 is a piss poor defensive cartridge.

    I remember seeing a news blurb about 15 years ago of a guy that was carjacked, and the assailant pointed a little Beretta .25 in his face and pulled the trigger. The bullet hit the dude square between the eyes.

    The victim then walked into the hospital. A doctor removed the FMJ slug from his sinus cavity with a probe and a pair of forceps, and the dude walked out of the hospital a few hours later with one of those little round bandaids between his eyes.

    The .22 is for squirrels. The .25ACP is a round that should die and never be spoken of again (Full disclosure, I own a .25ACP CZ model of 1945 that only is there because I collect CZs). Your life is worth more than a .25Auto or a .22LR. Get a better gun.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    The .22 is for squirrels. The .25ACP is a round that should die and never be spoken of again (Full disclosure, I own a .25ACP CZ model of 1945 that only is there because I collect CZs). Your life is worth more than a .25Auto or a .22LR. Get a better gun.

    I beg to differ with the part of your post I bolded. The .25 ACP is a darned adequate squirrel round from my .25 ACP rifle with either handloaded 50 grain FMJ or the 35 grain hollow points. :tooth:
    I also have two Colt Pocket Hammerless .25 ACP pistols that belonged to my Granddad.
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  • rallykidrallykid Senior Member Posts: 657 Senior Member
    rbsivley wrote: »
    I agree with rallykid

    I don't think anyone has ever said that before. :roll2:
    No, I do not have a pink fuzzy bunny fetish but apparently my Facebook hacking wife does.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    (Full disclosure, I own a .25ACP CZ model of 1945 that only is there because I collect CZs).


    I've got a .25acp Beretta Bobcat.

    I inherited it and my Blackhawk when my step-dad died. They are my least shot guns (not crazy about either one), but would be the last two I'd ever get rid of.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,327 Senior Member
    I pretty much agree totally, however I think that a dead horse is significantly MORE useful than a .25ACP in that it is edible and can make some pretty darn good leather and glue.

    But yes, so long as the .22 ammo is selected carefully, I would give it the nod. My choice would be the CCI Mini Mag copper plated solid, what with over my lifetime having fired a pile of them about the size of one of Saturn's moons and not being able to recall a single dud.

    The .25 Auto, I think, makes for the perfect storm of bad things that can happen with a defensive pistol: it's typically chambered in guns that are hard to shoot accurately; it's a round that NEEDS to be shot accurately to have any positive effect at all (and might not even then); and the cost of ammo is such that you probably won't be practicing enough to exploit the little potential it has.

    As I've said elsewhere and often, you need shot placement first and penetration second. Only then can you afford to start worrying about diameter, expansion, and other "special effects". With the .25, you're hard-pressed to get any of the three. The .22LR may be a small-diameter drill, but it least it's a sharp one with a much better chance of having the necessary licks to get to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,632 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    I pretty much agree totally, however I think that a dead horse is significantly MORE useful than a .25ACP in that it is edible and can make some pretty darn good leather and glue.

    But yes, so long as the .22 ammo is selected carefully, I would give it the nod. My choice would be the CCI Mini Mag copper plated solid, what with over my lifetime having fired a pile of them about the size of one of Saturn's moons and not being able to recall a single dud.

    The .25 Auto, I think, makes for the perfect storm of bad things that can happen with a defensive pistol: it's typically chambered in guns that are hard to shoot accurately; it's a round that NEEDS to be shot accurately to have any positive effect at all (and might not even then); and the cost of ammo is such that you probably won't be practicing enough to exploit the little potential it has.

    As I've said elsewhere and often, you need shot placement first and penetration second. Only then can you afford to start worrying about diameter, expansion, and other "special effects". With the .25, you're hard-pressed to get any of the three. The .22LR may be a small-diameter drill, but it least it's a sharp one with a much better chance of having the necessary licks to get to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop.


    That's funny stuff right there! :roll2:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • rbsivleyrbsivley Senior Member Posts: 1,255 Senior Member
    rallykid wrote: »
    I don't think anyone has ever said that before. :roll2:

    :cool:Glad I could help out.
    Randy

    Rank does not concur privileges. It imposes responsibility. Author unknow
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,327 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    That's funny stuff right there! :roll2:

    Hmmm. . .I think this thread just gave me the name for the .375 Ackley Magnum I'm building - I shall call him "Mr. Owl":tooth:

    One thing to remember about the .25 - It's a pre-antibiotics, and largely pre-freaky-narcotics cartridge. Back in 1905, you didn't have PCP or meth, and any bullet would likely carry in a bacteria-laden parcel of wool clothing, particulate horse manure (the "automotive smog" of the era), and skin that maybe got bathed once a week. If he were transported back in time to 1905 and the same scenario re-enacted, there's a very good chance that Eli's uncle would not have survived to talk about "the seven little dots on his stomach".

    Thing is, it was only ever a deterrent cartridge even then, and it was a better deterrent when the criminal populace at large had horror stories of how their buddies lingered for a number of feverish, pus-filled days. Today, the cure for the common .25 is amoxocillin, ibuprofen, and a Band Aid. The old facet of infection as a deterrent is gone from the criminal psyche, so even if you're hoping that the presence of your handgun will do the job mentally, it better have the juice to do the job physically. To be effective as a fight stopper, a bullet must reach and damage major arteries, spine, or brains, and the .25 can reliably do NONE of these things.

    I think it may well be the one and only totally worthless thing John Moses Browning ever came up with. He already had pocket-sized .32's at the time, so the .25 wasn't even a low-intensity player in early auto pistol development. I'm pretty sure that as a Mormon, the man didn't drink, so we can't blame substance abuse for the round. . .gotta wonder what he was thinking.

    One of my dilemmas as a gun collector - I want a Colt 1908 vest pocket or FN Baby for my JMB collection, but they are very expensive nasal-inhalers these days. . .:bang:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Hmmm. . .I think this thread just gave me the name for the .375 Ackley Magnum I'm building - I shall call him "Mr. Owl":tooth:

    One thing to remember about the .25 - It's a pre-antibiotics, and largely pre-freaky-narcotics cartridge. Back in 1905, you didn't have PCP or meth, and any bullet would likely carry in a bacteria-laden parcel of wool clothing, particulate horse manure (the "automotive smog" of the era), and skin that maybe got bathed once a week. If he were transported back in time to 1905 and the same scenario re-enacted, there's a very good chance that Eli's uncle would not have survived to talk about "the seven little dots on his stomach".

    Thing is, it was only ever a deterrent cartridge even then, and it was a better deterrent when the criminal populace at large had horror stories of how their buddies lingered for a number of feverish, pus-filled days. Today, the cure for the common .25 is amoxocillin, ibuprofen, and a Band Aid. The old facet of infection as a deterrent is gone from the criminal psyche, so even if you're hoping that the presence of your handgun will do the job mentally, it better have the juice to do the job physically. To be effective as a fight stopper, a bullet must reach and damage major arteries, spine, or brains, and the .25 can reliably do NONE of these things.

    I think it may well be the one and only totally worthless thing John Moses Browning ever came up with. He already had pocket-sized .32's at the time, so the .25 wasn't even a low-intensity player in early auto pistol development. I'm pretty sure that as a Mormon, the man didn't drink, so we can't blame substance abuse for the round. . .gotta wonder what he was thinking.

    One of my dilemmas as a gun collector - I want a Colt 1908 vest pocket or FN Baby for my JMB collection, but they are very expensive nasal-inhalers these days. . .:bang:

    This one was bought by my Grandfather in the early 20's and although it's fun to shoot, it wouldn't be the first thing I'd grab if I had to investigate a noise in the night! But as you say, it adds to ones collection of JMB's many creations. It is fun to shoot but hard to hit much with. :up:

    colt1908adjsm.jpg
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I inherited a Phoenix Arms .25 ACP, it actually shot pretty good and a longer barrel was available. It wasn't a small .25 to start with. It had more levers/controls on it than a sophisticated mechanism of some kind. I loaned it to one of my brothers and refused to take it back. I think it ended up as trade fodder on something else at a Gun Show.

    A .25 ACP is better than no gun at all. I remember years ago hearing where a FLA State Trooper was shot with one and it bounced off his belt buckle, another was shot with one in the belly and died a couple days later. Not an immediate man-stopper by any stretch of the imagination. Like I said, a little .25 ACP in my pocket would be better than nuthin and 5 or 6 up close hits might just dissuade an attacker, at least, better than my fist.

    My idy of a .22 for SD would be 10 quick shots from a Ruger MK II/III or 9 from an older MK 1 pistol or 10/22 or Marlin model 60 with 14 shots when it was all that was available. In a small semi pistol, a .25 ACP may be a better choice, especially a well made one like the Baby Browning. I don't know of many small and reliable .22 semis these days? Beretta tomcat or is it Bear Cat?

    Didn't someone on here build a .25 ACP rifle on here years ago? Don't remember what kind of accuracy he got with it.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
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  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,327 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »

    My idy of a .22 for SD would be 10 quick shots from a Ruger MK II/III or 9 from an older MK 1 pistol . . .

    This was the approach we took for my grandmother in her declining years - her DA .32 Colt (short or long, I can't remember) was something she could no longer run the trigger on, and the ammo was hard to find and expensive when it was. The single action Ruger MKI she ended up with was a much better state of affairs.
    Big Chief wrote: »
    In a small semi pistol, a .25 ACP may be a better choice, especially a well made one like the Baby Browning. I don't know of many small and reliable .22 semis these days? Beretta tomcat or is it Bear Cat?

    The Beretta 21 is the gun you're thinking of - a tilt-up barrel, DA-to-SA, available in .22LR. Pretty reliable little gun when fed what it likes. The WEIRD thing about it is that it has no extractor - - the gun is dependent on blow-back to clear brass from the chamber, and a conventional tap-and-rack drill will only double-feed the gun.

    Unfortunately, Walther quit making the TPH, which was basically a 2/3rd's scale PPK - about as slick a watch-fob gun as you could ask for.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    The only reason I have a .25 ACP is I bought a Baby Browning from an estate. I still have not fired it.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
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