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Banned Christmas trees

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  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,692 Senior Member
    mkk41 wrote: »
    I'm sure they'll claim it has commercial/income benefit. People will tend to come and shop where there's festive lights and decorations. It's all about the money!
    I can understand that. But will the added tax revenue pay for the worker's time, along with the power bill for the lights and the fuel bill for the trucks?

    Edited to add: folks complain about "government waste." How much is spent on decorations, power, fuel, and wages putting this stuff up and down?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    mkk41 wrote: »
    Snake , let me throw two observations of mine.

    The phrase "under God" was incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance June 14, 1954, by a Joint Resolution of Congress (amending §7 of the Flag Code enacted in 1942).



    The new Pope said after his election(?) , "if you're not a Roman Catholic , you're not a true Christian".

    And I'm not a true aethist , but a hardcore agnostic. My life certainly is not dreary because of my religious beliefs or lack of.

    I think ALL religions are money grubbing BS.

    Sorry MKK41, I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. I was just emphasizing the fact that most Atheists really don't care what the rest of us do if we just leave them alone.

    I really don't think most of the stuff stirred up about religion is done by Atheists or Agnostics.

    edited to Add: MKK41, I removed that part from my original text. You are correct, and I was assuming everyone who hasn't seen my light was miserable.

    Also, I did realize when Under God was added to the pledge.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    If its not in the constitution, than what is all the stank about??? Why do people care if the 10 Commandments or a Christmas tree is in front of a courthouse??? What is this world coming to when it's being held back by a bunch of (p)wussies? We need to start telling people to pound sand.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,692 Senior Member
    If its not in the constitution, than what is all the stank about??? Why do people care if the 10 Commandments or a Christmas tree is in front of a courthouse??? What is this world coming to when it's being held back by a bunch of (p)wussies? We need to start telling people to pound sand.

    How very Christian of you....

    It's how the First Amendment is interpreted, as far as what "establishing" a religion is. BTW, the state Constitutions can also govern what is done on state and city government building property. And those can have more explicit language than the U.S. Constitution.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    If its not in the constitution, than what is all the stank about??? Why do people care if the 10 Commandments or a Christmas tree is in front of a courthouse??? What is this world coming to when it's being held back by a bunch of (p)wussies? We need to start telling people to pound sand.

    ghost, if you want my take on this, read my first post above.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    How very Christian of you....

    It's how the First Amendment is interpreted, as far as what "establishing" a religion is. BTW, the state Constitutions can also govern what is done on state and city government building property. And those can have more explicit language than the U.S. Constitution.
    Don't feed me the "how Christian of you." I'm sick of others trying to trample on my beliefs for no other reason than to show that they can. I've respected others right to their religious freedoms and never cared if they want to show their beliefs, but society is taking it to far.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,692 Senior Member
    There's still some places where if you're not attending a Christian church of some sort, nobody will do business with you and you'll go broke. But that doesn't have any repercussions as to how folks view the church...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,617 Senior Member
    If its not in the constitution, than what is all the stank about???

    That would be "Constitution" - just sayin....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Don't feed me the "how Christian of you."

    He does have a point.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,753 Senior Member
    Fat Billy wrote: »
    Wambli Ska, Great follow up. I guess I should chill and not watch the news too much. I just get weary of the Christian bashing. Just smile and walk away and think of their one way Hades express ticket. Now I do feel better. Thanks, :worthy: Later,

    Well, I suppose there is some crazy chance that my afterlife will consist of burning in a lake of fire instead of simply mouldering away in a hole in the ground, HOWEVER, I think there's a much more certain chance of a lot of Christians burning up in THEIR OWN HOUSES when their decorative pine trees dry out and combust.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • mkk41mkk41 Banned Posts: 1,932 Senior Member
    Trying to get back on a nicer track , it boils down to what public funds , taxpayer dollars , get spent on. Like my sig line once said "If ya try to please everyone , NO ONE will like it!

    We have so many religions and factions today , that ya can't show ANY perceived preferance of favoritism toward one , without raising the hackels of all the others. Ya can't say Happy Hanukkah to a Jew without a Christian within earshot getting offended. Or Merry Christmas to a Christian without provoking some Muslim. And whatever the hundreds of other TRUE religions preach & believe , or don't believe.

    Therefore , ya can't use public funds for a Christmas Tree because Christmas is for & about Christians. No other faith decorates a tree with gold during the last 2 weeks of December. And doing so with gov't funds means that is the official religion of this community/town/township/city/county/state/country.

    Just ask the Reverand who's also a lawyer.

    Or the lawyer who's also a Reverand!
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    He does have a point.

    Me or Earl?
  • mkk41mkk41 Banned Posts: 1,932 Senior Member
    There's still some places where if you're not attending a Christian church of some sort, nobody will do business with you and you'll go broke. But that doesn't have any repercussions as to how folks view the church...

    Ahhhh , my real target , churches.

    What church?

    Christian ya say?

    Roman Catholic?

    Eastern Orthodox?

    Baptist?

    Lutheran?

    Presbyterian?

    Episcopalian?

    Mennonite?

    Amish?

    And any others I can't recall or don't know of.

    Not to mention the dozens of factions, national and regional, within each sect.

    Who's telling the truth?

    All acknowledge that their "bible" has been edited and changed to suit the times or more likely , their agenda.

    How can the faithful claim to believe that the Bible is the "written word of God" when the Church admits otherwise?
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,581 Senior Member
    People all over the planet follow the end of year holidays, at this point xmas is most probably a tradition about Santa, families getting together and a lot of other stuff than when Christ was born.
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
  • Vic's ViewpointVic's Viewpoint Senior Member Posts: 1,210 Senior Member
    Nice. A rant about something that might or might not be happening.

    Oh it's happening already. Agree or disagree with Fat Billy as you please, but make no mistake, everything he said has already come to pass in many (some say "most") places around this great nation built on individual liberties and freedom of worship. The whole thing stinks, really.
    Member formerly known as "vlafrank."
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    I think what a lot of people tend to forget about 1-A is the Constitution was written in a time after we broke away from jolly ole England and fought for Independence. We still had that Church of England and Monarchy thing in our minds. That's why good ole America doesn't have an Official Religion, just like we don't have an Official Language.

    If you want to say it's a communist/socialist plot......well even the NAZI's celebrated Christmas....took leave and decorated for the season, and plain Wehrmacht soldiers sang "O Tannenbaum" in their foxholes.

    If the cry-babies don't want decorations on government bldgs......then let's go all the way and keep everything open on the 24-25th.....government, banks, grocery and department stores....etc.....no day off for ANYBODY!

    How well would THAT go over eh?
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • JLDickmonJLDickmon Senior Member Posts: 1,726 Senior Member
    If I can't have a Christmas Tree in my yard, then YOU
    can't have people over on the third Thursday in November.
    You can't go shopping at midnight that night, and anything you buy for the next three days, you can't give as a gift.

    No more Black Friday sales, no more dropping the ball in Times Square, no more spring dress and shoe sales.. no more Hanukkah, Kwanza, no more spring equinox festival, no more Mardi Gras..

    If I have to sit in a cave all winter, so do YOU.
    Never laugh at your wife's choices.
    You are one of them.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,692 Senior Member
    Oh it's happening already. Agree or disagree with Fat Billy as you please, but make no mistake, everything he said has already come to pass in many (some say "most") places around this great nation built on individual liberties and freedom of worship. The whole thing stinks, really.
    Last time I checked, my church can erect a Christmas tree (they did this week,) I can still erect a Christmas tree at my home, and we can put nativities on our own private property. We just can't do that stuff at city hall or at any government building. Well, the nativities. That's fine with me. So I don't see how what he's so worried about is happening. The only thing I've seen happen is that we're not allowing government to do something it shouldn't have been doing to begin with.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I think what a lot of people tend to forget about 1-A is the Constitution was written in a time after we broke away from jolly ole England and fought for Independence. We still had that Church of England and Monarchy thing in our minds. That's why good ole America doesn't have an Official Religion, just like we don't have an Official Language.

    If you want to say it's a communist/socialist plot......well even the NAZI's celebrated Christmas....took leave and decorated for the season, and plain Wehrmacht soldiers sang "O Tannenbaum" in their foxholes.

    If the cry-babies don't want decorations on government bldgs......then let's go all the way and keep everything open on the 24-25th.....government, banks, grocery and department stores....etc.....no day off for ANYBODY!

    How well would THAT go over eh?

    Exactly, this whole separation of Church/State argument is baloney concerning Nativity Scenes and Christmas Trees . That's in the constitution because of the Church of England / others who controlled their subjects and forced religion on them. It happens every year about this time, ACLU/Atheist file lawsuits because they have nothing better to do than complain about Christians. They sometimes win because cities/schools are afraid of the legal cost and just give in.

    90% of Americans think it is OK. No one (State/Local/Federal GOVT) is forcing them to participate in any religion, all they have to do is 'Keep On Truckin' if they don't like it.

    BTW, it is a Federal holiday beacuse president Grant declared it so because he knew no one would come to work on Christmas anyhow in DC, so say the Fox News pundits.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    Fat Billy wrote: »
    Wambli Ska, Great follow up. I guess I should chill and not watch the news too much. I just get weary of the Christian bashing. Just smile and walk away and think of their one way Hades express ticket. Now I do feel better. Thanks, :worthy: Later,

    Yeah, wambli has a way of settling the waters around here. We need more of that. But this is a hot topic for me too. I really get tired of all the Christian bashing. But like Wambli said, don't let it ruin your Christmas spirit. Enjoy!!! Leave the pagans to their Misery,

    :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    I think what a lot of people tend to forget about 1-A is the Constitution was written in a time after we broke away from jolly ole England and fought for Independence. We still had that Church of England and Monarchy thing in our minds. That's why good ole America doesn't have an Official Religion, just like we don't have an Official Language.

    If you want to say it's a communist/socialist plot......well even the NAZI's celebrated Christmas....took leave and decorated for the season, and plain Wehrmacht soldiers sang "O Tannenbaum" in their foxholes.

    If the cry-babies don't want decorations on government bldgs......then let's go all the way and keep everything open on the 24-25th.....government, banks, grocery and department stores....etc.....no day off for ANYBODY!

    How well would THAT go over eh?

    Great Idea!!! Where's the petition and where do I sign???
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • snake284-1snake284-1 Senior Member Posts: 2,500 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    We really, Really, REally, REALLY need a sarcasm font. :cuss: Nope. The Constitution does not say anything about separation of church and state.

    1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Ghostsniper1, with all due respect and truly meaning no harm there are several places online where you can read the Constitution in full, and I believe the NRA still passes out pocket versions for free, and they are worth having. The Constitution isn't all that long a document, and is a document well worth reading repeatedly and becoming very familiar with. Very little lawyerese language in it, and what there is can be Googled to find the meaning. Can't wait for you to get to that "Congress shall pass no ex post facto law" bit. I've set a few people's hair on fire with that little bit.

    "Congress shall make no law" Now what's that got to do with a nativity scene at a post office or a Christmas tree on the Whitehouse lawn? or any of it. Congress didn't make a law. Maybe your state has a law but it better fall under the umbrella of the Constitution. So what's the big gripe from all the Christmas bangers? There is NO Division of Church and State in the Constitution.
    I'm Just a Radical Right Wing Nutt Job, Trying to Help Save My Country!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,692 Senior Member

    If the cry-babies don't want decorations on government bldgs......then let's go all the way and keep everything open on the 24-25th.....government, banks, grocery and department stores....etc.....no day off for ANYBODY!

    How well would THAT go over eh?
    I'd have no problem with keeping government buildings open on Dec. 24 and 25. But if you're forcing banks, grocery stores, and department stores to stay open, you're now using government might to force a private business to do what you want it to. That goes against most of what we stand for, no? If folks want a store open, they need to vote with their pocketbook.

    Incidentally, you hit on something a Jewish and a Muslim friend of mine both had problems with: when private industry closes down on Christmas day, sometimes they had to delay stuff because they couldn't buy or consult with what/who they needed.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    So why are Bibles still used in courtrooms. And why is "The whole truth, nothing but the truth...so help you God.........." used? True, you can opt out of using it, but isn't that a gross "Abuse" of the Church/State separation , the 1st Amendment ............

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States

    "The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." The modern concept of a wholly secular government is sometimes credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase "separation of church and state" in this context is generally traced to a January 1, 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper. Echoing the language of the founder of the first Baptist church in America, Roger Williams—who had written in 1644 of "[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world"— Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."[1]

    However, the Court has not always interpreted the constitutional principle as absolute, and the proper extent of separation between government and religion in the U.S. remains an ongoing subject of impassioned debate.[3][4][5][6]"
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • mkk41mkk41 Banned Posts: 1,932 Senior Member
    So how does the alledged seperation of church and state relate to the tax-exempt status anything that passes itself off as a church , from property taxes on a shack in the woods , to sprawling multi-acre estates/mansions , to mega-millionaire televanglists?

    And why do such obviously 'for profit' churches still get such exemption.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    I think what a lot of people tend to forget about 1-A is the Constitution was written in a time after we broke away from jolly ole England and fought for Independence. We still had that Church of England and Monarchy thing in our minds. That's why good ole America doesn't have an Official Religion, just like we don't have an Official Language.

    If you want to say it's a communist/socialist plot......well even the NAZI's celebrated Christmas....took leave and decorated for the season, and plain Wehrmacht soldiers sang "O Tannenbaum" in their foxholes.

    If the cry-babies don't want decorations on government bldgs......then let's go all the way and keep everything open on the 24-25th.....government, banks, grocery and department stores....etc.....no day off for ANYBODY!

    How well would THAT go over eh?

    I will be working on the 25th, and we do have a tree decorated in the station, ( that I bought at the big yard sale held in my zone every year). Every single complainer about said tree has been invited to bring in their own "holiday" display,( Ramadan, Hannukah etc.) so far, no takers. I think most that complain about the trees are just looking for an easy way to start an argument. As long as the lady with the nineteen grandkids can have their pictures plastered all over her cubicle, I can have my "decorations" too.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,692 Senior Member
    I've heard of schools having "holiday trees" where kids decorate it with their own religious/cultural decorations. And the tree's usually provided by the teacher.

    By the way, I wonder if most folks know of the Druidic symbolism of the Christmas tree, and how it in some ways represents both sacrifices and accepting blessings from the spirit of the evergreen...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • grunt69grunt69 New Member Posts: 4 New Member
    lol
    this thread just reminded me its time to put my tree up
    thanks
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    It does seem rather odd that a pagan winter solstice holiday that was adopted by Christians is now under fire from atheists. Whatever. I will let them go and fight it out amongst themselves while I do my best to enjoy the season.

    I'm late on this thread, but agreed.

    Christian celebration of the birth of Christ had nothing to do with evergreen trees or a jolly fat man in a red costume beinging gifts to people. It was originally a pagan celebration, specifically Norse and Germanic, and was not adopted in to Christian celebration until after that fact--long after. In fact, the Bible mentions no celebrations of the birth of anyone, including Jesus.

    "Christmas", or the original Celebration of Yule (Norse celebration) was the celebration of the prosperity to come in the spring and that is why they brought an evergreen in to their homes: to remind them of greener times to come in Spring.

    It's very Christian to assume it all began and ended with Christianity. But, if you believe in a book of circular logic and repeat contradictions...
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    I think what a lot of people tend to forget about 1-A is the Constitution was written in a time after we broke away from jolly ole England and fought for Independence. We still had that Church of England and Monarchy thing in our minds. That's why good ole America doesn't have an Official Religion, just like we don't have an Official Language.

    If you want to say it's a communist/socialist plot......well even the NAZI's celebrated Christmas....took leave and decorated for the season, and plain Wehrmacht soldiers sang "O Tannenbaum" in their foxholes.

    If the cry-babies don't want decorations on government bldgs......then let's go all the way and keep everything open on the 24-25th.....government, banks, grocery and department stores....etc.....no day off for ANYBODY!

    How well would THAT go over eh?

    Hmmmm..............About working on Christmas day, and Thanksgiving, too.............At the nuke plant when we were on 8 hour rotating shifts if I was on midnight shift Thanksgiving or Christmas day I knew with certainty I'd be pulling a double shift. Lots of people called in 'sick' if they couldn't get vacation time. Actually, any shift I worked on those two holidays was a guaranteed double shift. A couple of years I ended up doing 24 hours straight before NRC cracked down on hours worked ; but since the next shift after that was mine, I got 8 hours off at double time, and some other victim got to pull a double.

    Lots of folks work the holidays to keep the lights on, the water flowing out the faucets, and keeping the peace, and the airlines are still flying everywhere, and buses running, taxis, and lots and lots of other people are 'making their eight' at some job that has to be done. And the military is still doing their thing on land, in the air, and at sea. People forget about those folks.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
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