Don't know if this is political or not, but why aren't police "civilians?"

breamfisher · April 2012

I've seen this in posts, read it in newspaper articles, and heard the phrase "civilians" to denote those who are not law-enforcement.

By all definitions I've read, a civilian is a non-military or non-militia member, one who is not a combatant during a time of unrest, or otherwise under arms with a military connotation.

However, law enforcement, civilian law enforcement and the media seem to use this term to designate those who aren't law enforcement personnel.

Oddly enough, the state agency I work for which has a law enforcement division doesn't use the term "civilian" to refer to those who aren't in the LE-side of the agency. They just call them "non-law enforcement personnel." I have great respect for law enforcement, and feel that theirs is a special job that does take a lot of dedication to do. I do, on the other hand, take a bit of pleasure in pointing out to the Barney Fifes that call me a civilian that they too are civilians, and work for a civilian law enforcement agency. Some of them I point out that they need to treat us with more respect, because we write the regulations that make them "special" when it comes to law enforcement. :devil:

Just trying to figure out why "civilian" came to mean non-law enforcement members of the public? Is it a sloppy shorthand?

Teach · April 2012

It's just more evidence of the "us VS them" mentality that seems to prevail in practically all phases of law enforcement, from the local circuit court's process-serving constable to the attorney general of the United States.
Jerry

NN · April 2012

It bugs me as well, especially in a town like this one in which there are more active, retired, and folks that just got out
of the military than you can shake a stick at. Besides that, many of the LEO's are ex active duty Marines. .

Buford · April 2012

They is rules for them kind and rules for us kind.

DoctorWho · April 2012

"Just trying to figure out why "civilian" came to mean non-law enforcement members of the public? Is it a sloppy shorthand?"

Military Police, CID, NCIS etc..... handle Military LE affairs, Civilian Police handle matters relating to non Military affairs, Civilian Police can arrest active Military in the commission of a crime,
And if they are to be turned over to the Military / JAG is another matter.

You are right when the wrong terms are used, it is sloppy, a Civilian LEO referring to a citizen as a "civilian read hick or rube etc..."

tennmike · April 2012

I will again use Mark Twain as my guide:

...no country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more.
- The Gilded Age

JasonMPD · April 2012

If you think LEO's are not combatants in an on-going war, tell that to the families and friends of those slain in the line of duty by vicious attacks.

Until you drive in a well-marked, highly conspicuous vehicle wearing a uniform that readily and immediately identifies you as someone who will arrest you or investigate a crime you committed, then you are sorely mistaken to refer to a cop as anything other than a combatant. Cliche as that may sound, it is every bit of the truth.

I refer to non-LEO as "civilian" because that is the culture in the LE community and you tend to absorb the culture you work in. But so what if it denoted an "Us and Them" mentality? That mentality keeps me alive and safe--my fellow officers, too. "Civilians" don't get it--never will; unless they become a cop. Just like any of you who work in a skill-specific job field. I don't get it and never will unless I work in that field.

-Jason

NN · April 2012

JasonMPD wrote: »

If you think LEO's are not combatants in an on-going war, tell that to the families and friends of those slain in the line of duty by vicious attacks.

Until you drive in a well-marked, highly conspicuous vehicle wearing a uniform that readily and immediately identifies you as someone who will arrest you or investigate a crime you committed, then you are sorely mistaken to refer to a cop as anything other than a combatant. Cliche as that may sound, it is every bit of the truth.

I refer to non-LEO as "civilian" because that is the culture in the LE community and you tend to absorb the culture you work in. But so what if it denoted an "Us and Them" mentality? That mentality keeps me alive and safe--my fellow officers, too. "Civilians" don't get it--never will; unless they become a cop. Just like any of you who work in a skill-specific job field. I don't get it and never will unless I work in that field.

-Jason

Your quite militant about your post.

What are you saying, am I supposed to get frightened that I'm going to be arrested and expect that you and those
wearing similar in type uniforms as you, are now the enemy and that you cannot be trusted except to cause
mayhem just because you can and all of us are no goods because we are now in mufti and now lowlifes of society?

And to think People like me are now common criminals now that we got old and no longer are needed to
" fight our country battles in the air on land and sea".

Try this one on, many of us spent a year at a time away from our families while they worried for a year if we would come home and then did just to be spit on for doing so and the boys in blue couldn't or did not care to stop it.

Don't think for a moment that people like me are against the police; but, your stated attitude is probably worn on your shoulder and causes those that react poorly to your presence to act that way.

You sir have probably figured out your response ticked me off. Get a different job if it is so bad.

Teach · April 2012

Careful, Ned- - - - -you're rattling the cage of someone who's probably paranoid and trigger-happy. We've got one of those guys patrolling Highway 64 between Fayetteville and I-65. He's determined to "go home every night" even if he has to shoot a speeder or two to do it! All of the ER crew at Lincoln Hospital calls him "Barney Fife". His first name really is Barney, but he earned the nickname with his spooky mistrust of everybody he interacts with in the course of trying to do his job.
Jerry

Quinian · April 2012

It's people like Jason that make me have a general distain and distrust of all police officers. I know that not everyone is bad, but the calling everyone "civilian" and stomping around acting all big and bad like that does nothing to make us like you.

tennmike · May 2012

So JasonMPD, the people whose taxes pay your salary and vote the people into office that make the laws you enforce are all your enemies, and you believe you are at war with the civilian population. You believe that the police are a paramilitary force that is above the lowly 'civilian' scum that you have to herd and keep in line. Sounds like you'd do well in some of the third world countries that practice that notion. You are beyond burned out. Get a job that doesn't cause so much stress. Like the Parks and Recreation Department.

Ned pretty much nailed it, BTW.

CaliFFL · May 2012

JasonMPD wrote: »

If you think LEO's are not combatants in an on-going war, tell that to the families and friends of those slain in the line of duty by vicious attacks.

Until you drive in a well-marked, highly conspicuous vehicle wearing a uniform that readily and immediately identifies you as someone who will arrest you or investigate a crime you committed, then you are sorely mistaken to refer to a cop as anything other than a combatant. Cliche as that may sound, it is every bit of the truth.

I refer to non-LEO as "civilian" because that is the culture in the LE community and you tend to absorb the culture you work in. But so what if it denoted an "Us and Them" mentality? That mentality keeps me alive and safe--my fellow officers, too. "Civilians" don't get it--never will; unless they become a cop. Just like any of you who work in a skill-specific job field. I don't get it and never will unless I work in that field.

-Jason

I am more concerned with the innocent citizens that died at the hands of vicious attacks by LEOs. You know the ones...citizens on cell phones, citizens with cameras, citizens in their homes when the entry team didn't take the time to read the address on the warrant, or my personal favorite: citizens that dare demand their rights (contempt of cop)

Where are the pomp and circumstance funerals for these people?

SirGeorgeKillian · May 2012

It isn't just in the LE community. In the fire service we often refer to members outside of the fire service as civilians.

This gets really confusing when you work for the Gov't in a department that has both civilian and military firefighters. Yup, it gets confusing....

wildgene · May 2012

...I remember when police, firemen, EMT's were highly regarded as "Public Servants", didn't seem like the "Public" was the "Enemy" back then...

CaliFFL · May 2012

SirGeorgeKillian wrote: »

It isn't just in the LE community. In the fire service we often refer to members outside of the fire service as civilians.

This gets really confusing when you work for the Gov't in a department that has both civilian and military firefighters. Yup, it gets confusing....

I don't mind the "civilian" reference from gov't employees...it's the condescension I find intolerable.

breamfisher · May 2012

CaliFFL wrote: »

I don't mind the "civilian" reference from gov't employees...it's the condescension I find intolerable.

See, as a government employee, I see myself as a civilian. As a few fellows I work with point out, we're here to provide a service for the citizens of our state, and to allow recreational opportunities for them. If the people aren't happy, be they citizens or visitors, well, we're not doing our jobs very well.

CaliFFL · May 2012

breamfisher wrote: »

See, as a government employee, I see myself as a civilian. As a few fellows I work with point out, we're here to provide a service for the citizens of our state, and to allow recreational opportunities for them. If the people aren't happy, be they citizens or visitors, well, we're not doing our jobs very well.

:win:

This is called customer service. It is a lost art.

samzhere · May 2012

I don't think there's any dark ulterior motive to it. It's just a convenient way to refer to LEOs as separate from civilians who are not engaged in official (government) law enforcement.

There's a grey area. How about trained but private security guards? Some jurisdictions (state) require uniformed security to pass exams especially if they carry firearms. But what about "Jimmy Smith" who wears a sort-of uniform as a low-rent mall cop. Is he still a civilian or is he LEO? Each state/county has to be specific in setting these definitions. We don't want some untrained goofball shoving people around, puffed up on himself, with zero genuine police authority. On the other hand, if the agency Jimmy Smith works for is upscale and requires LEO certification for its guards, maybe ol' Jimmy has some credentials and training to back it up.

So is he still a "civilian"? A grey area.

But I don't think there's any hidden motive in defining LEOs as not actually "civilians". It's probably a term used by newspapers for quick reference in story lines. When I was writing news copy, any security guard who was licensed had to be called "private security" to differentiate from government-employed LEOs. And even then (this was in the 60s), police were named separate from "civilians" just for convenience of the story's comprehension.

Big Chief · May 2012

Dang, Monkey Boy has stirred up the herd (Troop) with this one.................:popcorn:

Honestly, I see some resentment on both sides here and mostly agree with SamW. I hope we don't lose another LEO forum member. There are jerks in all walks of life that give any occupation a bad rap.

Time for a :hug:

bruchi · May 2012

Maybe when you take an official oath for the benefit of others you stop being a civilian?

DoctorWho · May 2012

Big Chief wrote: »

Dang, Monkey Boy has stirred up the herd (Troop) with this one.................:popcorn:

Honestly, I see some resentment on both sides here and mostly agree with SamW. I hope we don't lose another LEO forum member. There are jerks in all walks of life that give any occupation a bad rap.

Time for a :hug:

My first stint as a sworn Ossifer of the law was in a graft ridden Banana Republic, and I did not trample on anyone, except the criminal element that needed trampling.....

There are Military Authorities, Police etc, and Civilian Authorities, Police etc..... Posse Comitatus precludes Military Police from performing Ordinary Police duties in relation to non Military personnel, although they can effect an ordinary arrest of non Military personnel, by not understanding the difference, people can get confused.

The combined Armed forces, Army, Navy, Airforce etc.. Military, Not Civilians and are governed by the UCMJ, Non Miltary, even Police are not governed by the UCMJ or JAG and are not tried by a Military tribunal.

See the difference ? Civilians are anyone not in Military service......

Edited to add: In other Countries, it is common to see a Police Officer and a member of the Military patrolling the same streets.

There are two kinds of cops, the Andy Griffith and the Barney Fife.
A LEO should not get so jaded that everyone becomes the Enemy.

If a LEO wants to be effective , he or she should get out of that RMP and really talk to people and get to know them personally and interact with them, buy them a cup of coffee, rather than fly by them at 30 MPH........

Big Chief · May 2012

Wambli Ska wrote: »

Jason,
You are a great guy and I truly admire most of our LE population and refuse to minimize their job BUT PLEASE don't drink that cool-aid.

According to FBI statistics (if you want links I'll be more than happy to send them to you) there are over 1.1 Million LEOs in the USA. According to the same sources in 2010 56 LEO's were feloniously killed in the line of duty. That means I have a higher chance of dying while driving on I-95 on any given day than you do of being killed while doing your job. BTW if you do die while working, there is a better than 50% chance it will be in a vehicle accident. Actually the death rate of LEO's per 100,000 is WELL below the homicide rate of "civilians" in major cities.

LEOs are NOT a class apart and all-in-all you have all the advantages in the world to help with your survival EVEN when attacked. You are armed with multiple weapons. You are trained by your agency in the latest protection skills. You are exempt from all the stupid laws and regulations that forbid "civilians" to carry at work, in an airplane, in New York City, in schools, in any federal building and so on and so on. AND the Supreme Court has made it clear that even though it is your job you are under NO legal obligation to "Protect and Serve" the folks that pay your salary.

All in all the chips are all on your side of the table, and let's remember, when you put your bacon on the fire, you VOLUNTEERED to do so. To have any kind of an elitist attitude about your job and try to segment yourself from the rest of the population is ludicrous and only invites the disdain of the general population that lacks all the self defense "perks" your job allows.

Again not trying to minimize what you do, just trying to give you a small reality check that might let you see things from a different perspective. I hope you take it in the right light.

Good points SKI. LEO is # 10 on a list of top 10 most dangerous jobs in America. 18 injured per 100, 000 compared to Fishermen, 118.0 per 100,000.

http://www.riskmanagementmonitor.com/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america/

Here shows fatality rate of 18 per 100, 000 LEOs and fatality rate for Fishermen is 116 per 100,000.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/pf/jobs/1108/gallery.dangerous_jobs/2.html

Now, one thing not pointed out is LEOs face dangers with every car they stop, ever house call they are sent to and have a stress level off the charts. Day in and day out activities they perform drain them far beyond a "Regular" job. In regular jobs accidents kill most of them, not a shootout, there is a difference.

However, statistics can be used in a lot of ways, as we know.

I know there is a sour taste in most/some of the forum members mouths concerning LEOs. Mostly because we have had a few arrogant ones on here who spouted off about what they could get away with/have the average "Joe civilian" can't. And they are used to being in charge of a situation/encounter..on here they are just another forum member and will be called out and scrutinized on what they say/post.

I also see some resentment by some forum members about the absolute power an LEO has over them in an encounter, right or wrong, they are in charge and rightfully so as Officers of the Law. Then the bad apples/screw-ups are pointed out as examples, but by and large most execute their duties in an exemplary fashion.

I've seen a few who should be wearing a pig-snout mask because they were total egotistical jerk-offs in the way the handled/treated/talked to civilians/citizens , but mostly they are good-to-go and I have the utmost respect for them and their profession.

pbearperry · May 2012

Fisherman are getting killed because of inclement weather and the sea.Police are getting killed by people.No comparison.If you don't want interactions with cops,just obey the rules of the road,stay off drugs,don't assault people and try not to act like complete morons.It's real easy if you try.The police don't even know I exist because of my low profile.

CaliFFL · May 2012

pbearperry wrote: »

If you don't want interactions with cops,just obey the rules of the road,stay off drugs,don't assault people and try not to act like complete morons.It's real easy if you try.The police don't even know I exist because of my low profile.

I guess hiding from your employees is always an option...
Unless of course, you use more electricity this month than last, or you visit NYC and get the stop and frisk, or some SWAT capt fails to read the address on a warrant and kicks in your door, or you pull into a DUI checkpoint, or your child breaks an arm, or you make eye contact with one on the street, or you are photographing a public place, and God help you if you demand your rights.

Quinian · May 2012

CaliFFL wrote: »

I guess hiding from your employees is always an option...
Unless of course, you use more electricity this month than last, or you visit NYC and get the stop and frisk, or some SWAT capt fails to read the address on a warrant and kicks in your door, or you pull into a DUI checkpoint, or your child breaks an arm, or you make eye contact with one on the street, or you are photographing a public place, and God help you if you demand your rights.

+1

samzhere · May 2012

CaliFFL wrote: »

I guess hiding from your employees is always an option...
Unless of course, you use more electricity this month than last, or you visit NYC and get the stop and frisk, or some SWAT capt fails to read the address on a warrant and kicks in your door, or you pull into a DUI checkpoint, or your child breaks an arm, or you make eye contact with one on the street, or you are photographing a public place, and God help you if you demand your rights.

Hiding from your employees (by which you mean the cops, right?). No, has never occurred to me.

You forgot to mention paranoid. And don't fail to mention those spooky black helicopters and stealth drones that keep circling your house. Plus those spy satellites that are zeroed in -- they just want you to THINK it's taking images of Jupiter. And that old Chevy that just drove by! What's that about? Jesse Ventura was probably right. Brrrr.

Jeez, I make eye contact with cops all the time, and do so willingly and wave to them. I'll chat with them, too, if I have time. They're happy to speak to average citizens. If you're DUI you deserve whatever comes down on your head. Child breaking an arm? Duh, I've had that three count 'em three times when my stepsons were young. What's that all about? Take 'em to the ER, get 'em pinned and out the door, and it happens again in a couple years.

Using electricity or taking photos? My electric bill goes up and down all the time. I also take plenty of photos of all sorts of stuff in public and have never been asked anything. I've got a couple of professional photog pals who practically live behind the camera and they are everywhere, taking pics and videos, no prob. I will admit that when I was working for the newspaper and snapping pics of a crime scene the cops asked if I had a personal interest in that, I showed my press pass. Of course that was a shooting victim lying in the gutter and similar.

Regarding NYC it's been a long time since I've been there but I've been in lots of other places and I've never been harrassed by cops. And that includes San Francisco fer pete's sake. I was given some push & shove in Munich, Yokohama, and London however. I guess the SWAT thing does happen occasionally -- we read about this maybe once a year in the press. Not exactly a police state and if it does occur, it's lawsuit time. I kinda don't think they say "Well, that troublemaker Sam owns guns. Let's do a smash!"

Incidentally I've never had to "demand" my rights, ever. I was always accorded them from the start. In my youth I ran afoul of the cops now and then and even when I was "acting up" I was still treated okay. I didn't push it and neither did they. Sure I might have been rousted but hey, a carful of young guys at 330 am cruising around? If I were a cop I'd have stopped me, too. I consider LEOs my friends and even as a teenager, I never disliked them. I'm glad they're there.

I have zero idea what sort of junta-protectorate society you're living in but I've never had the troubles you describe. What is it you do that seems to bring all the LEO attention? Your list of woes sounds awful but in honest truth I've never heard anyone describe their life that way. At least not in the USA -- maybe the ghetto I suppose. I can almost hear those black copters now...

samzhere · May 2012

DoctorWho wrote: »

There are two kinds of cops, the Andy Griffith and the Barney Fife.

Jeez, don't I get a 3rd choice? ha ha

tennmike · May 2012

Well, Sam, as to taking pictures or video, you can still do that. But recording the audio with video can get you a felony arrest in several states. And if you hack off a LE by taking pictures or video while you're standing in your front yard, you might get scuffed up a mite.

High electricity usage is seen as a sign of growing marijuana under grow lights in the house. If the electric bill suddenly goes up, they just might take a thermal scan of your house and do a no-knock raid. It's pretty common in FL for that to happen to rental houses being used as grow houses. If you happen to be doing a lot of welding in your garage or shop building a car, well, looking down the business end of an MP5 could be in your future.

Taking pictures of bridges, government buildings, and other 'sensitive structures' in NYC can get you a little police attention since 9/11.

As to the bad SWAT no-knock raids, if you only know of one per year, then you are not paying attention, or are too busy to notice them on the news.

I've got several friends that happen to be deputies. Hunting and fishing buddies, they are. But there are a few on the payroll that I have no use for whatsoever, and they earned that lack of respect by word and deed. A couple of friends on the TBI (Tn bureau of investigation), too. Former sheriff asked me to help with a hazmat class for cleaning up meth houses. I did the dressout procedure training part. Same dressout procedure as nuclear, really. The TBI guys were there, and after introductions, we hit it off. They're good people.

I see it as all boiling down to mutual respect. You get what you give. If none is given on one side, none will be returned from the other side. To demand it from another due to a supposed superior position is the epitome of arrogance.

CaliFFL · May 2012

Ok Sam,

Since you only tend to focus on your own self-centered existence and do not concern yourself with the other people who are victims of police abuse, I'll post a link of EVERY situation I was referring to. These are not isolated events.

Just because something doesn't happen to YOU doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Drug raid because of eletric bill:
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_ea2047e8-59e1-551e-b173-ce89ffad4d90.html

685,724 in 2011 NYC warrantless searches:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-04-11/news/31320412_1_stop-and-frisk-attorney-general-eric-schneiderman-nypd-program

No knock wrong address
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/01/31/fbi-uses-chainsaw-in-raid-on-wrong-fitchburg-apartment/

Parents wrongly accused of child abuse (It's a rib, not an arm)
http://www.rd.com/true-stories/survival/parents-wrongly-accused-of-child-abuse/

Public photography:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072502795.html

Eye Contact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=838idJBQGlE

Bigslug · May 2012

Well, this seems like a lot of semantic political correctness to me, which, as a friend describes it: Political correctness is trying to pick up a turd from the clean end.

Much like the military, LEO's are entrusted with special status that allows them to do the things their job requires. For the military, this means carrying and deploying explosives, artillery, and machineguns, as well as "touring" foreign countries and killing their troops. For LEO's, this can include pursuing, detaining, coercing, and using various forms of force - including lethal. These conveyed powers - which "civilians" don't have - give both categories some justification for having designator that distinguishes them from the masses. If calling the masses "civilians" is the easiest way to do it, I have no problem.

I get far more annoyed by the group with the attitude of "I was in the military, so my poop doesn't stink, and anyone who wasn't in the military shouldn't have full rights or be able to even vote" crowd. Seriously, dude? Thanks for your service, but there's plenty of your fellow "heroic vets" who signed up because they couldn't hack high school or college, or had it presented to them as an option to stay out of jail. Therefore, the mere fact that YOU once wore green doesn't give ME any reason to be impressed by the fact. If the military WAS in fact your Plan A, then we can have a meaningful conversation on the topic. If, OTOH, your attitude stems from the fact you are compensating for having turned wrenches on trucks for 25% of what the guy at Pep Boys does it for, kindly shut up.

pbearperry · May 2012

over a million cops today did not abuse anyone or step on their God given rights today.I guess it's more fun to home into the 2 cops that did.

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