"Bright Line" Test

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Replies

  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,582 Senior Member
    "Seinfield" was a very popular television sitcom, NOT at all a source of FACTS but for the same token not everything there must be a lie.

    The season ended with the main characters in jail because they did not help someone in trouble in a county, city, or state where this was against the law, is this law anywhere in the US?
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    Yes, there are such laws in existence:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

    It's Wikipedia, but the references for the FL statutes are correct.

    Also, if you're on the water and someone flags you down with an actual emergency, or if you are the nearest boat to another vessel that's undergoing a declared emergency, you have to render assistance. That can mean holding a boat into the seas until Coast Guard arrives, giving a tow if possible, rendering medical attention, etc.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    bream, those are, as you know, called Good Samaritan statutes.

    Very tricky stuff to enforce in some occasions. Like trying to give first aid such as CPR to an injured person in an accident but you've got zero training. You might do more harm than help.

    Shaky situation and no clear answer in some cases. Most of the time if you however call 911 or otherwise try to get professional help, you're in the clear legally. Morally? Each person has to judge. Tricky even with the best intentions.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    Legally you're not obligated to go above and beyond your training. If you're not trained in CPR or first aid, you're not legally expected to render that aid. It would only come to a head if you didn't render aid and they found out about it and wanted to pursue that. That happens most often with doctors. For instance, a few years ago a boat piloted by a doctor ran down a diver and damaged his legs so badly they had to be amputated. He fled the scene, didn't render aid. That did not go well for him, and besides fines and (I think) jail time he lost his license. But the thing is, he was obligated because he had training.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    I was thinking about getting first responder training. I don't know if I can. Maybe two 1 semester courses at a local community college. I have to renew my teaching certification once more before I retire and maybe it can be something useful.
    I know the chances of another shooting are like lightening striking twice in the same place but it might be useful later too. I just think every school should have one and the teachers are almost always there.
    I realize now how much ahead of the curve the rural high school where I taught was. Several kids were training as volunteer fire and EMT as well as teachers.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    Dr. db, you should be able to get a First Responder certificate, ( depending on your state and its rules) in a few weeks of night classes. Check with your local ambulance service or rescue squad. They may have a class they are putting on for their own volunteers or members that you could piggyback on. If that doesn't work, check with the local community college. First Responder, does not take as much time as an EMT course, but will cover all that you would need to know for basic first aid if, God forbid, "lightning" did strike twice.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,834 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    bream, those are, as you know, called Good Samaritan statutes.

    Depends on where you live Sam...varies from state to state, however in most places Good Samaritan laws are written to give TRAINED and OFF DUTY professionals some legal protections should they stop to render aid....they don't require lay people to stop and render aid....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Depends on where you live Sam...varies from state to state, however in most places Good Samaritan laws are written to give TRAINED and OFF DUTY professionals some legal protections should they stop to render aid....they don't require lay people to stop and render aid....

    You're correct, Jay. I was mainly thinking of well-meaning people who might think they "have to" render aid even though they aren't trained. As anyone "knows" (from TV and movies), cars just after being in a crash soon explode in a huge ball of fire. Yeah, right.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    My Dad pulled a guy out of a wreck once, it had hit a Elevated subway (EL) pillar, the car started smoking from under the hood, then flames could be seen, My Dad had Fire / Rescue training from Brooklyn State hospital, they had a Fire Department in those days, He pulled the guy out just in time, FLOOOM !!!! it burst into flame and would have killed the guy otherwise, the interior of the car FLOOOOMED & burst into flames as well...... pretty hot fire, broken glass, melted metal.....

    Yeah, it was pretty much a fireball the way My Dad described it, and He was not one to exaggerate...... He did not want to move the guy as He well understood the dangers involved, but when the car started to burn, His judgement call was to carefully extricate the guy, which He did.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • ADRidgeADRidge Member Posts: 173 Member
    Eli wrote: »
    I am basically a very selfish person. If there is a threat coming after ME then I'm going to stop it. If there is a threat coming after MY friends or loved ones then I'm going to stop it.

    If there is a threat coming after somebody else then THEY need to stop it.

    If I can stop a threat against somebody else with ABSOLUTE MINIMAL danger to myself then I will, but I'm not going to die because you aren't selfish enough.

    Always remember, my loved ones are more important than your loved ones, and I am more important than you.

    That's my basic Bright Line test.

    Pretty much this. I don't know that I'd get into the middle of a brawl between two people to save the day, because I have no idea who the good guy and who the bad guy are in a situation like that. It would take a pretty obvious situation for me to jump in the middle of it and risk my life and liberty when I could just be a good witness first and foremost.
    In space no one can hear you scream... but if you put a helicopter up there, some jerk would complain about the noise!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Well, of course, smoking coming under the hood and all, perfectly understandable. You dad deserved a real tip of the cap there!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,651 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    I am basically a very selfish person. If there is a threat coming after ME then I'm going to stop it. If there is a threat coming after MY friends or loved ones then I'm going to stop it.

    If there is a threat coming after somebody else then THEY need to stop it.

    If I can stop a threat against somebody else with ABSOLUTE MINIMAL danger to myself then I will, but I'm not going to die because you aren't selfish enough.

    Always remember, my loved ones are more important than your loved ones, and I am more important than you.

    That's my basic Bright Line test.

    :agree:

    It's all about me and mine.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,980 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Each situation is different. I don't have a 'bright line' in general life to decide 'it's go time'. It's the totality of the circumstances that matters.

    Now, as for home defense- I have a 'bright line.' There is a point in my house that anyone passing will be met with overwhelming force (with target ID taken into account, etc...). Something like 'you enter this hall, the balloon has gone up and overwhelming firepower will be applied.'

    Are you trying to say an intruder will meet "Mr Saiga , 12 ga"
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,662 Senior Member
    Earl, what they call the "good samaritan laws" here are only meant to cover a non-paid person who helps in an emergency as long as what they do passes the "reasonable person" test.

    Jon doe taking a pen knife and a bic pen and attempting a tracheotomy because he saw it done in the movies doesn't pass that test.

    Also, I do not know of any state that has a law requiring a "duty to act" of off duty EMS or LE personnel. If I'm on-duty and you call my dispatcher needing medical help, then yes, there is a duty to act. Joe Blow getting hurt on the street as I drive by in my pick-up, or even in an ambulance, I have no legal obligation to render assistance.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    Oh, I know, Paul. That was my point. That's why I said you were only obligated to do what you're trained to do. No CPR training means no CPR.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Earl, what they call the "good samaritan laws" here are only meant to cover a non-paid person who helps in an emergency as long as what they do passes the "reasonable person" test.

    Jon doe taking a pen knife and a bic pen and attempting a tracheotomy because he saw it done in the movies doesn't pass that test.

    Also, I do not know of any state that has a law requiring a "duty to act" of off duty EMS or LE personnel. If I'm on-duty and you call my dispatcher needing medical help, then yes, there is a duty to act. Joe Blow getting hurt on the street as I drive by in my pick-up, or even in an ambulance, I have no legal obligation to render assistance.

    In N.Y.S. an E.M.T. off duty is covered against malpractice by article 30, all ambulances either City F.D.N.Y. or hospital affiliated or private must render aid if flagged down or if they happen upon an injured party, if they are out of service for any reason, but have a certified crew member, they must stabilize and call an ambulance.

    I had full equipment in My personal vehicle then and rendered aid countless times.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    :agree:

    It's all about me and mine.

    All I can say is wow !
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,662 Senior Member
    Oh, I know, Paul. That was my point. That's why I said you were only obligated to do what you're trained to do. No CPR training means no CPR.
    Even with the training I have, when I am off duty, I have no legal obligation to act
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,651 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    All I can say is wow !

    That's good.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    That's good.

    I am sure glad Jesus did not think like that, or we would all be hellbound with no chance at redemption.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,651 Senior Member
    Actually, Eli explained it pretty well. Post #26.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    All I can say is wow !


    I fully respect, your attitude Doc, if you are willing to risk life and limb for someone who means nothing to you, more power to you.

    I however, will not.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,458 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    I fully respect, your attitude Doc, if you are willing to risk life and limb for someone who means nothing to you, more power to you.

    I however, will not.

    At least he is taking a risk for a human. I could never understand the morons who go out on thin ice to try and save a dog or other animal....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
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