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Tasers now legal in MI for CPL holders....

JayhawkerJayhawker ModeratorPosts: 18,118 Senior Member
So how many of you Michiganders are planning on adding one to your "toolbox"?
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"

Replies

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    A gun is a better tool. If you have a CPL, what is the point?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    Are Tasers considered to be "deadly force" or just "force"; and, how are their legal use defined in MI statutes?

    I wonder how much of this will play against the CPL holders. I can imagine a scenario where an overzealous prosecutor would say why didn't the defend have a Taser instead of a gun if he/she didn't intend to kill. It's a stretch, I know, but still...

    Politically, people who are adamantly against carrying firearms now have a means, effectiveness discussion aside, to defend themselves. They and others now can say, hey, Tasers are legal, why do we need to allow for people to carry firearms?

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,118 Senior Member
    mythaeus wrote: »

    I wonder how much of this will play against the CPL holders. I can imagine a scenario where an overzealous prosecutor would say why didn't the defend have a Taser instead of a gun if he/she didn't intend to kill. It's a stretch, I know, but still...

    Politically, people who are adamantly against carrying firearms now have a means, effectiveness discussion aside, to defend themselves. They and others now can say, hey, Tasers are legal, why do we need to allow for people to carry firearms?

    Al

    Al...my feelings exactly...something that has concerned me since I heard about this.....this is why I didn't get overly excited when my daughter texted me about it last night...

    Apparently, you have to take a class and only "consumer use" units are legal....these are intended to be deployed and then the user is supposed to depart while the Tasee is taking a 30 second ride....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Al...my feelings exactly...something that has concerned me since I heard about this.....this is why I didn't get overly excited when my daughter texted me about it last night...

    Apparently, you have to take a class and only "consumer use" units are legal....these are intended to be deployed and then the user is supposed to depart while the Tasee is taking a 30 second ride....

    Definitely keep a close eye on this. The good thing is that MI has strong gun owners and 2A community so if there are any hints, there needs to be work to throw this out immediately.

    The slight positive side (minus the concerns above) is if they allow for this to be on college campuses, that may be somewhat helpful if you buy into "better than a stick" argument. If they are not, then there goes pretty much any positive I can see out of this.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • Uncle BSUncle BS Member Posts: 380 Member
    Even LE tasers are far from foolproof. If those darts don't spread adequately, only a felt shock is delivered with none of the short-circuiting benefits. Too much spread, and a dart could miss, no shock at all. I'd rather have a baton.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Dunno, a Taser is good for a LEO IMHO, a LEO has partners and fast backup by radio, for Me anyway, I would not use a Taser, too much to go wrong, a battery fail or some other component, and I pull a Taser and EPIC FAIL, and I get beat to a pulp, an no partner to save Me.......

    I will pass on the "CIVILIAN" version of the Taser.......
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Dunno, a Taser is good for a LEO IMHO, a LEO has partners and fast backup by radio, for Me anyway, I would not use a Taser, too much to go wrong, a battery fail or some other component, and I pull a Taser and EPIC FAIL, and I get beat to a pulp, an no partner to save Me.......

    I will pass on the "CIVILIAN" version of the Taser.......

    Interesting insight, Doc. :up: That's something I haven't thought about. I was always against Tasers because of effective range, possibility of multiple assailants, and difficulty of practicing them.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    That is the best question, how do you practice with a Taser ????

    With the watered down made for "CIVILIANs" version of the Taser that is........
    Researched by the Baaahh Ram University ..... Designing safer and ideal products for the meeker Civilian.....

    Yeah, I can see Myself trusting My life to a fragile shoddy weak complicated CIVILIAN version of a Taser.......
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    That is the best question, how do you practice with a Taser ????

    My joking answer has always been "on cats?" :jester:

    I know they sell "practice cartridges" (http://store.taser.com/taser0174-c20153-4-pack-training-cartridges--target-p113.aspx), but at $80 for 4, I think I'd better off with a gun.

    Al
    PS: Tasers and other stunt devices are prohibited here in Philadelphia.
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I have a rather odd question, what if you if you use a Taser on someone and they get a massive infection of some sort ?

    I doubt it has ever happened, but what if ???
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Uncle BSUncle BS Member Posts: 380 Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I have a rather odd question, what if you if you use a Taser on someone and they get a massive infection of some sort ?

    I doubt it has ever happened, but what if ???

    Probably like the burglar suing the homeowner after he hurt himself breaking into the house.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,118 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Yeah, I can see Myself trusting My life to a fragile shoddy weak complicated CIVILIAN version of a Taser.......

    Uhhh Doc, the "consumer use" Tasers are made by the same folks who build units for cops...The major difference is that the civilian version was designed to shock for a full 30 seconds (which is a LOT longer than an LE Taser and you can't turn it off...the idea is that once the unit is deployed, the user is supposed to drop it and run...I've been tased by a police taser...I want NO part of a 30 second "ride" on a civilian unit.

    Still...I think there are more downsides to this "less than lethal" thing than up sides...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    The one and only time I ever used mace, the LE stuff, and the wind shifted and the dose got dumped in My face, the guy bolted and ran into a brace of N.Y.C.P.D. uniforms, that had plenty of pithy things to say about My "Crime-fighting" abilities or the distinct lack thereof, I never bothered with mace after that, that was before Tasers....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    A gun is a better tool. If you have a CPL, what is the point?

    Yea, Why?
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    What I am not understanding here is that force is only justified in a life or death situation or at least to prevent great bodily harm. To stop that threat, lethal force is the most effective way. I think that by introducing a less than lethal option, it lowers the threshold for force.

    For example, if an LEO were in a life or death situation, I would expect him to use lethal force. If they were dealing with a drunk with an attitude or something, I see a less than lethal option as an answer. A LEO needs to deal with the drunk with an attitude where a non-LEO is better off walking away and calling a LEO. I feel that it puts us in a big grey zone that we do not need to be in.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "For example, if an LEO were in a life or death situation, I would expect him to use lethal force. If they were dealing with a drunk with an attitude or something, I see a less than lethal option as an answer. A LEO needs to deal with the drunk with an attitude....."

    And a LEO can call for backup when dealing with a drunk / intoxicated / under the influence person, backup = extra witnesses / help and additionally, a Patrol supervisor on scene helps to corroborate that nothing unjustifiable is done to the intoxicated person.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Tasing someone would be battery. Now are we going to have situations where we are going to have justified battery? Will the same death/great bodily harm threshold be used to determine if it is?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I think or believe ( opinion only - not factual ) that this type of thing may expose the user, the NON LEO, to more harm from a Legal standpoint, a LEO has a LE Department & Municipal legal backing and certification in the use of a Taser, the non LEO does not........
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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