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Mindset - Living Through It (graphic video attached)

JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior MemberPosts: 6,557 Senior Member
I am doing a presentation for some co-workers next week and it got me thinking. Self-defense situations are fundamentally no different for LEO or citizens when it comes to having to use deadly force: many involve an assailant with a firearm or knife. The mindset you have prior to the encounter and the mindset you exert during the incident will vastly direct the outcome in your or the bad guy's favor.

I am not going in to detail (...because the presentation is a few hours long), but the general concept around encountering a potentially mortal situation if the response dictates deadly force is the Violence of Action. "Violence" is not generally a lawyer-friendly word. But there is nothing negotiable about a life-or-death situation and using a level of violence equal or greater than the threat presented is the only way you will rise to the top. There is nothing defensive about defending yourself.

The video below is openly available on YouTube and is not some unauthorized video footage. It illustrates officers (2) using an overwhelming violence of action to overcome and defeat a very real mortal threat. This sort of mindset is the underlying purpose of my presentation for my co-workers, but it applies to ANYONE who may have to defend their lives or the lives of others. DISCLAIMER: This video is graphic/violent in nature and depicts officers using deadly force to defend themselves. There are no bloody or gory images and the suspect is not shown as injured or deceased in the video.

th_Red_Truck_2_Officers_1_Suspect.jpg
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers

Replies

  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    As you know, when cops (hell, anyone) do something that I think is wrong or stupid, I have no problem voicing my opinion on the matter.

    When it comes to defending your life, other than needlessly putting bystanders at risk, I think ANYTHING is appropriate. From what is visible from the video, I think the officers responded perfectly.

    And I agree entirely with your premise.....violence of action, extreme violence of action, is the key to making it out of this type of situation alive.





    Good luck with the presentation.

    :beer:
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    It appears that the police used pretty effective fire here. I didn't try to count the rounds, but by the looks of the breaking glass and smoke, they pretty well shot the crap out of the truck and driver's side.

    Whwat was the outcome?
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    I've criticized cops in the past, but I see nothing wrong with these officer's actions. You don't stop firing when you think the other guy is out of the fight, you keep firing until HE thinks he's out of the fight...
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    What an idiot, taking shots at the police and thinking he would not get returned fire. Return fire until the threat is neutralized, and in that case my civilian response would be to empty my Glock 22 , reload, and get ready to do it again.

    In this case there was no question of the attempt to use deadly force on the part of the perp. When he retreated into his truck, there's the legal question. Even though he was now in his vehicle, his back was to the officers. Granted that truck in reverse at full throttle is a 5000 lb deadly weapon.

    I can only guess the perp was shot through the back of his head, and his actions leave little doubt he got what he deserved.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    Looks to me like the LEO's did everything just right. Seems that their aim was superb as well.
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Wow. They really lit that guy up. Two things strike me here. No radio chatter til almost the end. Maybe it was edited out. And the numb nuts driving slowly through the middle of a gun fight.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    When he retreated into his truck, there's the legal question. Even though he was now in his vehicle, his back was to the officers.

    He already displayed an overt and violent action towards police, committing the forcible felony of "Attempted Murder on LEO w/Firearm" (x2) and then attempted to flee. Deadly force, in almost every state, is still prudent for the suspect fleeing following the immediate commission of the forcible felony. Furthermore, he is actively known to be armed and fear that he may travel to another location and open fire on other cops of citizens is very real. The continuous use of deadly force until the threat is neutralized was well-within legal boundary.
    Wow. They really lit that guy up. Two things strike me here. No radio chatter til almost the end. Maybe it was edited out. And the numb nuts driving slowly through the middle of a gun fight.

    The audio was recording the entire time. There is no radio chatter because: you can't shoot while you are using the radio. After the barrage was over, the announced "shots fired". That is very common. Getting it out over the radio during the firefight is almost impossible.

    The car rolling slowly towards the truck at the end of the video was a second unit that got on scene and when the LEO jumped out of his car (the second car - and additional officer - that arrived, making 3 officers total shooting at the last few seconds) and neglected to put it in park. It rolled forward with no one in it.
    It appears that the police used pretty effective fire here. I didn't try to count the rounds, but by the looks of the breaking glass and smoke, they pretty well shot the crap out of the truck and driver's side.

    What was the outcome?

    The driver was deceased. If you watch closely as the back window finally falls to pieces, on officer lands a shot right in the back of the perps head, causing his hat to pop off.

    There is a different sound of gunfire about halfway through. I'm not sure what weapons were deployed, but I surmise that a carbine 5.56 rifle may have been deployed from the car. There is a louder string of fire with more explosive glass shattering.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    The one real important difference in the aftermath of a shooting, a LEO has peer support and department / resources / Psychiatrists / Therapists to help with mental trauma resulting from the incident.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    The one real important difference in the aftermath of a shooting, a LEO has peer support and department / resources / Psychiatrists / Therapists to help with mental trauma resulting from the incident.

    So do citizens, but the main difference is that it isn't free. A psychologist/psychiatrist who would do pro-bono sessions with people who have to shoot a person would be a great thing to do! A support group for people who have used deadly force would also be very good.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Back in the 1940's and 50's, shooting at Nashville Tennessee police was a guarantee that the perp was not going to survive the arrest process. Surrender was not an option once the first shot was fired.
    Jerry
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    He already displayed an overt and violent action towards police, committing the forcible felony of "Attempted Murder on LEO w/Firearm" (x2) and then attempted to flee. Deadly force, in almost every state, is still prudent for the suspect fleeing following the immediate commission of the forcible felony. Furthermore, he is actively known to be armed and fear that he may travel to another location and open fire on other cops of citizens is very real. The continuous use of deadly force until the threat is neutralized was well-within legal boundary.

    I have zero problems with what they did there. no telling the lives saved by taking this guy down right there; right now.



    The audio was recording the entire time. There is no radio chatter because: you can't shoot while you are using the radio. After the barrage was over, the announced "shots fired". That is very common. Getting it out over the radio during the firefight is almost impossible.

    I watch the TV show "Cops" so I'm kind of an expert on cop radio chatter. I could insert some emoticon thingy here but i won't. Surely you get the joke. It just seemed to me that the dash cam car was totally silent til he put his foot in it and hit the lights and siren. What we're used to in this new age of cams everywhere is like, "Subject has turned West on ABC street..." That's all I meant.

    The car rolling slowly towards the truck at the end of the video was a second unit that got on scene and when the LEO jumped out of his car (the second car - and additional officer - that arrived, making 3 officers total shooting at the last few seconds) and neglected to put it in park. It rolled forward with no one in it.

    After I posted I actually thought about going back with an edit like, "unless that was an unmarked backup".



    The driver was deceased. If you watch closely as the back window finally falls to pieces, on officer lands a shot right in the back of the perps head, causing his hat to pop off.

    There is a different sound of gunfire about halfway through. I'm not sure what weapons were deployed, but I surmise that a carbine 5.56 rifle may have been deployed from the car. There is a louder string of fire with more explosive glass shattering.

    I don't know either but the accuracy and rapidity of fire leads me to believe it almost had to be a 16 or some other carbine. Regardless the officer on that particular trigger was cool as a cucumber and relentless as original sin. Well done and the boys in blue went home to sleep in their beds that night.

    I've watched that video at least a dozen times or more. The BG was obviously trying to back out and flee. The tires were even smoking. Or so it looked like. I've never fired a shot in anger, nor had one fired at me. But I must these guys said no, this ends right here and right now.

    Edited to add: Epic fail on my part on my first attempt at advanced quoting on this forum. I feel certain most of you can tell the difference between Jason's post and my replies.
    Sorry
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,581 Senior Member
    Seems he choose to shoot it out in a residential neighborhood, gets out of truck and shoots at LEO, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, HE HAS TO BE NEUTRALIZED and with extreme prejudice applies here 150%.

    Question is he does his shooting and immediately gets back in his truck to flee, is there another way to "neutralize him" without exposing folks in those houses to all those fired rounds which I gather not all ended up in the idiot driving the truck?
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
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