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Eli wrote: »
Chuck, if you want to buy a .357 sig, by all means have at it. The reason it will work in a .40 caliber gun with just a barrel swap, is because the .357 sig is just a .40 s&w case, necked down to 9mm.
A .357sig that's slow enough to reduce the chance of overpenetration?
Ummm................that's called a 9x19mm, and you already have one.
Jayhawker wrote: »
.357 SIG? No thanks...I just don't like bottle-neck pistol cartridges.... :down: But that's just me....
DoctorWho wrote: »
OTOH, if a bullets momentum makes it zip through the flesh with little expansion, and a small wound channel, you will see what many soldiers complained about the lack of terminal performance with FMJ ball 9mm, the enemy is shot and is still able to run away...
JasonMPD wrote: »
Bigslug, that was informative.
I still stand by my personal logic that bullets to not have "stopping power", but rather have "wounding potential". Larger bullet, larger hole, more wounding, etc.
Also, determining your caliber choice based on "ft-lbs" of energy is asinine. The bullets momentum is a far better measure of its ability to penetrate. Momentum, afterall, is the physical property of a moving object that describes its ability to resist opposing forces.
Gene L wrote: »
The heavier is better, or bigger is better, does have its limitations because it discounts bullet design. Bigger/better is more relevant in handgun rounds, where you're limited by FPS and bullet design and a bigger hole from a bigger bullet is almost a given. But it this concept falls down with high velocity rounds. There is an effect from speed plus bullet design. Elmer Kieth once loaded some 22-250 loads with solid brass rods, which were "wonderfully accurate" and shot them on jackrabits. No effect except the jacks hopped off. So a hole alone won't do the job.
Can't compare pistols to rifles. Completely different ballistics.
Bigslug wrote: »
OK. . .Looks like it's time for another "stopping power" lecture. This is largely from the horse's mouth, the horse in this case being the FBI, who has has spent crazy amounts of time and money on figuring this stuff out.
A "stopped" bad guy is generally defined as one who is down and out of the fight. A handgun will "stop" a bad guy when one of two things happen: (1.) he bleeds out, or (2.) you scramble his brain or sever his spine. For the purposes of this discussion, we can largely discount the latter, because it's pretty well understood and accepted that even a lowly .22 at the base of the skull is only slightly less effective than a small tactical nuke. On the first matter of blood loss, you first need PLACEMENT of the bullet where it will do some good (or bad, depending on whose viewpoint we're taking). After that the bullet needs enough PENETRATION to, as I like to say, "reach the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsie Pop. If, and ONLY if, you've made it deep enough to damage those vital arteries and nerve clusters will DIAMETER/EXPANSION begin to do you any favors, by increasing the size of the hole through which blood is lost and by (slightly) increasing the chance of that bullet encountering something important.
Get the concepts of "foot pounds", "energy dump", and "hydrostatic shock" out of your dictionary, because, at least when it comes to defensive handgun calibers, they are all largely meaningless. Cartridges striking at velocities of less than about 2000 feet per second cannot displace fleshy tissue rapidly enough to cause any serious tearing much beyond the diameter of the bullet itself. In short, a handgun bullet destroys the meat that it physically touches. The "stretch cavity" is not stretched so violently with pistol impacts that it tears - the surrounding tissue will typically just snap back to where it was - with little ill effect - before the bullet plowed through.
Addressing the subject of "impact": you feel that recoil in your hand? That recoil that moved your front sight up about an inch and sent a slight shock down your arm? That is EXACTLY how hard you just hit the bad guy - less hard, actually, because that bullet starts slowing down as soon as it leaves the muzzle. If you want to "knock a guy down" you are going to need to deploy a force that can knock YOU down in the opposite direction. Issac Newton - look him up.
So what does this .357 Sig get you? Well, at the end of the day, it's really nothing more than a 9mm with added range (not a real issue in a defensive handgun), added recoil (which CAN be an issue in a defensive handgun), added penetration (ASSUMING that you're using an identical bullet, which since top-shelf duty rounds are usually engineered for the velocities the round generates, you probably aren't), and substantially higher ammo cost.
In either case, you'll have a bullet that will reach the FBI's minimum bare gelatin penetration standard of 12 inches (probably with an inch or two to spare), and will expand to about .70 caliber. With more or less equal bullets, the extra velocity of the Sig round will typically do a better job of punching through intermediate barriers (that don't expand the bullet) like plywood and drywall. Since the possibility of going through anything more than a single sheet of wet newspaper seems to be a topic of major concern for you, the round may not be your best choice.
With modern common-caliber duty ammo, it pretty much all penetrates about 13" of gelatin on average across ALL of the FBI's barrier tests, and it pretty much all expands to somewhere between 1.5x and 2x the original caliber. GIVEN EQUAL PLACEMENT, a .45 will be SLIGHTLY better than a 9mm because the projectile finishes up at .85" to 1.0" in diameter instead of .65"-.70". But then we come to the question of shooter ability - the accuracy of a non-gun-nut with a 9mm will usually be sufficiently better that it will offset the tiny increase in hole size of the .40 or .45 they can't fully control.
All of the above was a long-winded way of saying "stop looking for the Magic Bullet - it does not exist".
Jayhawker wrote: »
Excellent response....one I am tempted to save and post every time someone brings up "stopping power"
cpj wrote: »
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