Jerry, Please! Take a deep breath and hold off a little. This man is new. Brand new, so wait before you form opinions that strong! Quite frankly he brought up a couple of points that I've always had in the back of my mind about being confronted with a life threatening situation where a conceiled weapon MAY come into play.
What you say about Mausers I will take as "Gospel", just as I would what Dan or Gene say about a potentially deadly situation involving conceiled weapons, but this man also has raised a good point that should be given consideration before being rejected as worthless. Just my opinion.
Good post woodrunner, I realy don't know what I'd do until the situation presents itself...I usualy don't carry, but sometimes I do. I probably should but we live in a good community(so far). I do carry when traveling to Tenn. or Ohio....or if I'm out late by myself or the wife...my wife don't go on much about guns but the other day while watching the news, they told of 4 armed men burst into these peoples home in Huntington WVA while they were watching TV. Wife looked at me and said" well, it's time to bring the little Automatic down stairs" I agree and did so.
Would you go under your house into the crawl space looking for a water moccasin with a .380?
Heck no I wouldn't, I'd send in cpj.......:tooth:
It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
well, yes, I could just sit back and watch.... listen for the screams or foul language Don't sent him down with anything large enough to shoot through the floor or foundation...
Would you go under your house into the crawl space looking for a water moccasin with a .380?
I only have one small crawl space under my house that the only access is from my basement. Unless a water moccasin can bore through cement blocks I doubt that would be a problem I would ever have to address period.
Do you have anymore irrelevant, unlikely scenarios you might like to suggest?
IMO any firearm of any caliber is better then none.
Oh you wussies! I've low-crawled under houses in the thick of creepy crawlers....worst was a house that had THOUSANDS of spiders...Total Stephen King scenario!
Anyway, Nomadac brought up an unlikely scenario I play out in my head and want to learn the right way to do it.......getting home after a trip...you open up the garage and drive in.....then once walking into your house, you hear someone upstairs when the house is supposed to be totally empty....I'll have my trip-gun on me....but I've cleared houses with a team and used an M-16.....not solo with a handgun.
God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
Oh you wussies! I've low-crawled under houses in the thick of creepy crawlers....worst was a house that had THOUSANDS of spiders...Total Stephen King scenario!
Anyway, Nomadac brought up an unlikely scenario I play out in my head and want to learn the right way to do it.......getting home after a trip...you open up the garage and drive in.....then once walking into your house, you hear someone upstairs when the house is supposed to be totally empty....I'll have my trip-gun on me....but I've cleared houses with a team and used an M-16.....not solo with a handgun.
I know what you are saying, If I have been on a trip I usually have something with me. I also have a burgular alarm with one siren pointiing at my neighbor and one at the other neighbor. I usually punch him in a password(good for two weeks) and give him a key just in case the thing goes off. It won't quit until the electric is turned off for about 4 hour. I used to sell these and thought it would be cool to have one. Calls 6 Numbers unless someone takes the phone line down.
If anyone breaks in here after looking around would probably put fifty bucks on the table and walk off....
I had the same thoughts about the (weak) nature of the .380 round prior to an investigation I took part in. The scenario....A nephew shoots his uncle with a .380 using ball ammo. The victim was struck once in the mid upper back and once in the back of the head while running out of the house.
At the autopsy, the Doctor removed the upper cranium and there was the round, undamaged and scrambled the brain. This gave me a new respect for the .380 round. IMHO in defensive armed altercations a citizen carrying a small caliber subcompact would/should be considering head shots. If you have room to select a shot. If any greater distance than a head shot, you might should think about another course of action such as going the other way or being a good witness and not taking proactive actions in a non deadly situation ie. store robbery, burglary etc...
I feel very confident carry a dependable .380.
Like a .22 lr....a headshot will most likely resolve in a death.....but that's not point of a self-defense act....shoot to stop....for most people in a confrontation it's gonna be VERY close or they're gonna be on the ground on their back. Instinct and training are the same....shoot center of mass first...aim for the CNS....the bullet has to punch though a breast-plate of bone...then travel though a mass of hard muscle just to destroy the heart.....this itself won't stop an animal immediately...even a human....its when the bullet severes' the spinal cord that you've achieve total stoppage..even then....it has to break a substantial bone just to get to it.... Motor function are cut off...total incapitation.
When a .380 even if FMJ can do this....I'll carry one
God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
timekop, you and kcraig have both alluded to things in your very first posts that I have thought about a hellova lot in this concealed carry/protect yourself scenario. Personally, my opinion is that unless you are constantly trained and experienced in standoff situations like Dan C., GeneL, and a few more of our members are, it's not much going to matter wheather you're carrying a .380 or a souped-up 9mm. When the rounds start going off, everyone involved is going to instantly go into a "survival" mode, and movements/actions are going to be on instinct steeped in deep fear. I think what I really feel about this whole subject is....if you are not constantly in some type of training directed toward self-defence in a hostile situation it's not going to make a damn what handgun you're armed with! And I also think that in a shoot-out situation cold calculations about what to do are not going to be the norm....it's going to be instinct, and if your instincts are correct that's the best defence that you have. .380 or .50cal. I don't think it's going to matter much. Crawling under the house to kill Cottonmouths protecting my Grandkids is one thing...confronting an armed crack-head in front of the 7-11 store is a totally different scenario. Personally I want my little 16ga SXS in either case!
Wood...I agree, it does come down to training, capabilities, weapon type, etc. I realize when all hell breaks loose, a million things go trough your mind. I was making a point to what the .380 ball round could do to a human being. When I am carrying off duty, I make an attempt to run through a quick scenario in my mind based on what type of firearm I'm carrying. If I am carrying a small caliber firearm, which is what I believe the .380 to be, I know that I'm not going to try to shoot at a target at center mass. If I need to shoot at all, I'm going for a head shot (5 - 10 yards) because that is what I train for. Any distance beyond that, I have to ask myself if I really need to be shooting someone. Could I be calling the cops or seeing what type of vehicle the bad guy is driving off in?
I think if a person is going to carry a small caliber firearm, they should be able to make a head shot. This is not a difficult thing to do. What is the point of referencing numbers of posts. I have 20 years of firearm instructing.
I sincerely wish that some day, a person would donate their body for the use of ballistic testing once they expire to a cadaver. Maybe, for once, we can put this to rest with a combinations of shot placement and different ammo.
I only have one small crawl space under my house that the only access is from my basement. Unless a water moccasin can bore through cement blocks I doubt that would be a problem I would ever have to address period.
Do you have anymore irrelevant, unlikely scenarios you might like to suggest?
IMO any firearm of any caliber is better then none.
I stand corrected it was a Cottonmouth he went in the crawl space to get.
Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
Two of 'em, Buford. One week apart almost to the hour! Damndess thing I've ever experienced with snakes. It was the breeding season, and the 2nd one-the larger of the two at about 5 feet long, was the male. I think he was still able to pick up on the odor of the female.
I had the same thoughts about the (weak) nature of the .380 round prior to an investigation I took part in. The scenario....A nephew shoots his uncle with a .380 using ball ammo. The victim was struck once in the mid upper back and once in the back of the head while running out of the house.
At the autopsy, the Doctor removed the upper cranium and there was the round, undamaged and scrambled the brain. This gave me a new respect for the .380 round. IMHO in defensive armed altercations a citizen carrying a small caliber subcompact would/should be considering head shots. If you have room to select a shot. If any greater distance than a head shot, you might should think about another course of action such as going the other way or being a good witness and not taking proactive actions in a non deadly situation ie. store robbery, burglary etc...
I feel very confident carry a dependable .380.
If you have ever shot the Army BodyArmor course with the .45 or M-9 you shoot two to the body,one in the head... No head shot, the body shots don't count no matter where placed.
I posed a question about the Glasser Safety Slug-mentioned above-over on the Personal Defense Board where I think this Thread should be, in case anyone is interested.
First off,I may be a newbie on this site,but I have seen more combat than I care to talk about on a gun forum. Seeing the white elephant,be it once ,or many times,is nothing to brag about,at least ,nothing I want to brag about .I served my county,& that's all that needs to be said. The whole intention of my post was my experience with micro.380 auto pistols,and share some of the performance info with the new ammo out there,and say why, I,personally was not crazy about the .380 caliber,but,it beats a fist,and I only have one fist left . It's not the caliber for everyone,but,I'm sure it may be all some can handle ? You know,once you've lost an arm,the quickest reload is another loaded weapon ! I don't come on here much,because I'd rather be outside actually shooting,and mastering the ability to shoot one handed. I'm open minded,and read,and listen to what anyone has to say.I don't come on here to disrespect,or make assumptions about other members,their knowledge,or abilities.Like (woodsrunner), said,perhaps you should take a deep breath Teach,before you assume you know anything about me,my abilities,or knowledge.
A Good Day to you Sir !
A successful law suit,is the one worn by a policeman . "Robert Frost"
I can't see Myself using a .380 acp given the better options out there today, and certainly not in what is most likely to be My final LE assignment.
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
A .380 is about equal to a .38 special round. When I first started in law enforcement that was what we carried until the .357 came out. I carry Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo in my two Walther pistols. This round has now been discontinued in this caliber. They do have a good .380 personal defense round. I hope they bring back the short barrel ammo as it uses faster burning powder. I still carry the same round in my CS45, in .45acp of course. I understand that Remington Gold Saber is a good round in .380, as well.
Way back when, the .380 acp was a great LE BUG, now all that has changed as there are many 9mm subcompact handguns that are as small as a similar handgun in .380 acp.
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
Never killed anyone. For me, so far, tactics have always given me an edge. On those rare occasions when I faced armed people and succeeded, they didn't have a chance and they realized it. Today, cops shoot unarmed people rather fight. When I carried a badge, we were expected to fight or take another job. So, I've disarmed people with guns without killing them and disarmed a deranged woman with a knife by pinning her to the wall with a chair while a partner took her knife away. Nobody died and no one got stabbed.
Still, there were a few occasions when the other guy started out intent on not being taken alive...and changed his mind. I liked the fact that I was carrying something a little more powerful than a .22lr or .32acp.
I'm a little bit sold on caliber and velocity, vs size. I believe a .45acp 230 grain traveling at 730 out of a 3" barrel, beats a 125 grain 9mm traveling at 1000 out of a 3" barrel. Can I prove it? Well, shoot both at steel and hear 'em ring. Shoot both at pins and watch how the pins react.
Now, for the reality check. LIke I said, I never shot a person, but I've shot a few living things as most of us here have. That 150 pound deer might drop in his tracks when the .30-06 strikes, or it may run 100 yards with its heart blown to crap. Men are no different. Depends on how badly they want to hurt you and what frame of mind they are in. Statistically, the armed citizen will normally be facing a petty criminal who uses intimidation to win the day. People like that can be scared off mighty quickly when the victim shows some pluck. A .380 is all you need.
But, then you have those bath-salt snorting zombie face-eaters. Give me a compact .45acp. I'll find a way to hide it.
It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
If y'all think packing a .380 is somehow worse that carrying nothing at all , then don't carry one.
Carry a whistle , or pepper spray , or a shocker-thing.
Dear boy, it is not that the .380 acp is somewhat worse than nothing at all, I carried a Colt mustang in .380 acp as a BUG, however, My current EDC is only slightly bigger than the Mustang, and is chambered for .45 acp !
I maintain with newer handguns in the same size category of yesterdays .380's you do not have to settle for less.
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
I'm a little bit sold on caliber and velocity, vs size. I believe a .45acp 230 grain traveling at 730 out of a 3" barrel, beats a 125 grain 9mm traveling at 1000 out of a 3" barrel. Can I prove it? Well, shoot both at steel and hear 'em ring. Shoot both at pins and watch how the pins react.
But, then you have those bath-salt snorting zombie face-eaters. Give me a compact .45acp. I'll find a way to hide it.
:that: Agreed. When shooting (falling) steel plates, the .45 does a MUCH better job knocking them down than a .40 S&W, which in turn does a better job than a 9mm..... I can only imagine the .380 is much less impressive. I've seen steel plate setups that a 9mm wouldn't even knock over/down, that a .45 put down immediately.
I'd rather base performance on momentum (weight times velocity), than energy (which is much more dependent on velocity).
Luis
Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
Would you go under your house into the crawl space looking for a water moccasin with a .380?
Only if it was a Taurus,......,then the snake would leave me alone. :roll2:
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
James Bond always managed to kill people with a Walther PPK...
So did the Nazi's and most were killed with a .32acp, but those were murders not gunfights.
I feel perfectly well armed with a decent sized 9mm I can load decent SD ammo in, and a small gun is better than no gun. This is the same old argument....nothing wrong with a 380 with decent ammo. If you can't carry anything larger, it beats a taser and pepperspray all the hell.
Getting sick of all the waaammmmbulance posts about lack of firepower from caliber x. You don't like it, don't carry it. Preaching to the choir only gets you so far.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill
Replies
Good post woodrunner, I realy don't know what I'd do until the situation presents itself...I usualy don't carry, but sometimes I do. I probably should but we live in a good community(so far). I do carry when traveling to Tenn. or Ohio....or if I'm out late by myself or the wife...my wife don't go on much about guns but the other day while watching the news, they told of 4 armed men burst into these peoples home in Huntington WVA while they were watching TV. Wife looked at me and said" well, it's time to bring the little Automatic down stairs" I agree and did so.
Heck no I wouldn't, I'd send in cpj.......:tooth:
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
well, yes, I could just sit back and watch.... listen for the screams or foul language Don't sent him down with anything large enough to shoot through the floor or foundation...
I only have one small crawl space under my house that the only access is from my basement. Unless a water moccasin can bore through cement blocks I doubt that would be a problem I would ever have to address period.
Do you have anymore irrelevant, unlikely scenarios you might like to suggest?
IMO any firearm of any caliber is better then none.
Anyway, Nomadac brought up an unlikely scenario I play out in my head and want to learn the right way to do it.......getting home after a trip...you open up the garage and drive in.....then once walking into your house, you hear someone upstairs when the house is supposed to be totally empty....I'll have my trip-gun on me....but I've cleared houses with a team and used an M-16.....not solo with a handgun.
If anyone breaks in here after looking around would probably put fifty bucks on the table and walk off....
At the autopsy, the Doctor removed the upper cranium and there was the round, undamaged and scrambled the brain. This gave me a new respect for the .380 round. IMHO in defensive armed altercations a citizen carrying a small caliber subcompact would/should be considering head shots. If you have room to select a shot. If any greater distance than a head shot, you might should think about another course of action such as going the other way or being a good witness and not taking proactive actions in a non deadly situation ie. store robbery, burglary etc...
I feel very confident carry a dependable .380.
When a .380 even if FMJ can do this....I'll carry one
I think if a person is going to carry a small caliber firearm, they should be able to make a head shot. This is not a difficult thing to do. What is the point of referencing numbers of posts. I have 20 years of firearm instructing.
I stand corrected it was a Cottonmouth he went in the crawl space to get.
If you have ever shot the Army BodyArmor course with the .45 or M-9 you shoot two to the body,one in the head... No head shot, the body shots don't count no matter where placed.
A Good Day to you Sir !
Still, there were a few occasions when the other guy started out intent on not being taken alive...and changed his mind. I liked the fact that I was carrying something a little more powerful than a .22lr or .32acp.
I'm a little bit sold on caliber and velocity, vs size. I believe a .45acp 230 grain traveling at 730 out of a 3" barrel, beats a 125 grain 9mm traveling at 1000 out of a 3" barrel. Can I prove it? Well, shoot both at steel and hear 'em ring. Shoot both at pins and watch how the pins react.
Now, for the reality check. LIke I said, I never shot a person, but I've shot a few living things as most of us here have. That 150 pound deer might drop in his tracks when the .30-06 strikes, or it may run 100 yards with its heart blown to crap. Men are no different. Depends on how badly they want to hurt you and what frame of mind they are in. Statistically, the armed citizen will normally be facing a petty criminal who uses intimidation to win the day. People like that can be scared off mighty quickly when the victim shows some pluck. A .380 is all you need.
But, then you have those bath-salt snorting zombie face-eaters. Give me a compact .45acp. I'll find a way to hide it.
Carry a whistle , or pepper spray , or a shocker-thing.
Dear boy, it is not that the .380 acp is somewhat worse than nothing at all, I carried a Colt mustang in .380 acp as a BUG, however, My current EDC is only slightly bigger than the Mustang, and is chambered for .45 acp !
I maintain with newer handguns in the same size category of yesterdays .380's you do not have to settle for less.
:that: Agreed. When shooting (falling) steel plates, the .45 does a MUCH better job knocking them down than a .40 S&W, which in turn does a better job than a 9mm..... I can only imagine the .380 is much less impressive. I've seen steel plate setups that a 9mm wouldn't even knock over/down, that a .45 put down immediately.
I'd rather base performance on momentum (weight times velocity), than energy (which is much more dependent on velocity).
Luis
Jerry
Only if it was a Taurus,......,then the snake would leave me alone. :roll2:
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
Seriously...thats the road we we want to take this. I thought you were better than that Dan.
So did the Nazi's and most were killed with a .32acp, but those were murders not gunfights.
I feel perfectly well armed with a decent sized 9mm I can load decent SD ammo in, and a small gun is better than no gun. This is the same old argument....nothing wrong with a 380 with decent ammo. If you can't carry anything larger, it beats a taser and pepperspray all the hell.
Getting sick of all the waaammmmbulance posts about lack of firepower from caliber x. You don't like it, don't carry it. Preaching to the choir only gets you so far.
Winston Churchill