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Federal Guard Dog (tm) ballistics

bowserbbowserb MemberPosts: 277 Member
Hey guys, I'm stumped. The new issue of Handguns magazine arrived in the mail today with reports on the new S&W Performance Center 1911 and the Sig Sauer 1911 Fastback Carry. Two .45 ACP 1911's, the former a 5" barrel and the latter a 4" barrel.

I was interested in the two range reports, because both included results with Federal Guard Dog (tm) 165 grain Home Defense ammo. I've seen some good reports on this round, and the ballistics shown at the Federal website are impressive to me (muzzle velocity 1140 fps, supersonic to 50 yds, 476 ft lbs muzzle energy, 1" bullet drop at 50 yds--if zeroed at 25). I'm thinking of switching to that round in my carry gun, as from what I am reading, it looks like an excellent personal defense round both at home and outside. That's assuming I can get enough cash to buy a suitable quantity for practice...it's really expensive.

Here's my question of any ballistics-knowledgeable people reading here. The tested Sig 1911 has a 4" barrel, and the range report indicated 1102 fps muzzle velocity, just a little less than the 1140 fps Federal claims, but I might expect the 4" barrel to come in a little slower. Then what I can't quite figure: The S&W test reported a muzzle velocity of only 979 fps with the same ammo and a 5" 1911. For both guns, tests were done with several different rounds, but the Guard Dog was the only one common to both.

Am I mistaken, or wouldn't one expect the same round to have a little more velocity coming out of a 5" barrel than a 4-inch?
"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history." - Ayn Rand

Replies

  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,023 Senior Member
    Yes, because the "Ballistics by the inch" shows more energy so it must be faster in the 5" barrel.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,621 Senior Member
    Each barrel is a law unto itself.
    Take the same barrel and cut it from 5" to 4" and you'll have a predictable drop in velocity, based on the the powder being used. However, 2 different barrels, even from the same company, and I doubt you'll find the same velocity from both of them, even using the same ammo and both barrels being the same length.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,023 Senior Member
    Guard Dog has come around before; here is a link:
    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?4073-Guard-Dog-ammo

    I might use it, just too many choices.

    I thought it shot to the same POI as other .45 ACP; but,
    your results my be different.
  • bowserbbowserb Member Posts: 277 Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Each barrel is a law unto itself.
    Take the same barrel and cut it from 5" to 4" and you'll have a predictable drop in velocity, based on the the powder being used. However, 2 different barrels, even from the same company, and I doubt you'll find the same velocity from both of them, even using the same ammo and both barrels being the same length.
    I hear you. Go from a 5" to a 4" and you'll have a predictable drop in velocity. What you wouldn't predict is a drop going from 4" to 5". Here, the 4" Sig is 1102 fps and the 5" S&W is 979. The difference is backwards. The shorter barrel Sig produced a 12.5% higher velocity with the same round.

    Incidentally, both guns shot 2" groups in the Handguns magazine range report. The Sig just got there faster!
    "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history." - Ayn Rand
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,023 Senior Member
    Maybe the printer transposed the figures.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,621 Senior Member
    bowserb wrote: »
    What you wouldn't predict is a drop going from 4" to 5".
    You apparently missed the part where I said "each different barrel is a law unto itself" ( velocity wise)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,023 Senior Member
    The 4" barrel was shot 5 feet closer to the chronograph.

    There may have been other factors different as well---temp, ammo in the sun, altitude who knows what else.

    Two different writers in two different locations----it is anybodies guess.
  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    bowserb wrote: »
    Hey guys, I'm stumped. The new issue of Handguns magazine arrived in the mail today with reports on the new S&W Performance Center 1911 and the Sig Sauer 1911 Fastback Carry. Two .45 ACP 1911's, the former a 5" barrel and the latter a 4" barrel.

    I was interested in the two range reports, because both included results with Federal Guard Dog (tm) 165 grain Home Defense ammo. I've seen some good reports on this round, and the ballistics shown at the Federal website are impressive to me (muzzle velocity 1140 fps, supersonic to 50 yds, 476 ft lbs muzzle energy, 1" bullet drop at 50 yds--if zeroed at 25). I'm thinking of switching to that round in my carry gun, as from what I am reading, it looks like an excellent personal defense round both at home and outside. That's assuming I can get enough cash to buy a suitable quantity for practice...it's really expensive.

    Here's my question of any ballistics-knowledgeable people reading here. The tested Sig 1911 has a 4" barrel, and the range report indicated 1102 fps muzzle velocity, just a little less than the 1140 fps Federal claims, but I might expect the 4" barrel to come in a little slower. Then what I can't quite figure: The S&W test reported a muzzle velocity of only 979 fps with the same ammo and a 5" 1911. For both guns, tests were done with several different rounds, but the Guard Dog was the only one common to both.

    Am I mistaken, or wouldn't one expect the same round to have a little more velocity coming out of a 5" barrel than a 4-inch?

    If you can get your hands on the Speer Reloading Manual #14, see the article on pg. 769 "Why Ballisticians Get Gray" by David Andrews. It was an article originally published in Speer #9, ca. 1974 but was re-printed in the 2007 manual, #14, at the urging of Dick Metcalf.

    Mr. Andrews compares the velocities of various 357 magnum firearms from short barrel revolvers to rifles. Several handguns with the same barrel length produce 200+ fps differences in velocity. In fact, 9 different revolvers with 6" barrels were tested with average velocities from 1227-1607 fps. That's nearly 400 fps from handguns with the same barrel length. Also, two different S&W M-27's were tested and the shorter 6 1/2" barrel version bested the 8 3/8" barrel model with 125, 140 and 158 gr. test ammo. It probably had tighter tolerances in cylinder, barrel, etc. Who knows?

    It also shows 3 different Colt Pythons with 6" barrels that varied by over 200 fps. So a 6" barrel gun can be slower than a 5", or even a 4".

    The article deals mostly with revolvers, but runs the gamut from 2 1/2" wheel guns to longer rifle barrels.

    I just googled it and …. voila!

    http://www.leverguns.com/articles/ballisticians.htm
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,023 Senior Member
    bowserb :
    I shot some of the GuardDog .45 acp today
    1. Recoil was pleasant
    2. It did moderate energy xfer to a water jug, but, conventional modern HP's do better.
    3. I still think it is as good as any other SD ammo.
  • HAWKENHAWKEN Senior Member Posts: 1,720 Senior Member
    They sound interesting, but, I still have a box of .45 ACP, and a box of .9 MM Black Talons, left over from my LEO days......Robin
    I don't often talk to people that voted for Obama, but when I do I order large fries!
    Life member of the American Legion, the VFW, the NRA and the Masonic Lodge, retired LEO
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