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Gun control laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    :wink: screw this argument.....That's what I pay the NRA for......I've got a turkey to fry for Christmas for my friend's family.....his wife just had her back broken in an auto accident, and there's 4 kids to "corrupt" with a bb gun....:tooth:
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    oblivia wrote: »
    The constitution didn't last two centuries without maintenance. The second amendment (as its name suggests) wasn't included in the original document.

    I'm not arguing one way or the other when it comes to gun control. I don't know. But I don't buy the argument that it's a question of freedom or the constitution or anything like that. The world's greatest nation is not contstrained in the choices it makes about what's best for society. The only consideration is what's best today, given all the information that we have available.

    Only a fool would argue that the founders had perfect foresight -- or that they framed the law with the view that mass school shootings were an acceptable price to pay for "freedom". And even if they did, it's our obligation to disregard that and consider the situation in light of what we know today. Strictly speaking, the founders only conferred the right to bear arms on white men between the ages of 18 and 45, yet most people here (especially the retirees) are happy to accept that they were wrong about that bit...

    As President Regan once said, "There you go again!". The 18-45 age group was specifically set as the age for the organized militia. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with 10 USC Sec. 311 TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
    Subtitle A - General Military Law
    PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
    CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

    Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

    -STATUTE-
    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
    males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
    313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
    declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
    and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
    National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are -
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
    and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
    the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
    Naval Militia.


    Need to be on the same page and reading what is written, not an interpretation thereof. And one must further remember that the National Guard required a law passed to enable them to be formed in the first place since they were taking the place of the state organized militias. And a study of the history of that is an interesting bit of the states losing power to the federal government.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    Oblivia you should check your information before you repeat it. The ages of 18 to 45 refers to the ages required for enrollment in a militia, not to who can or cannot own a firearm. As to your "price of freedom" comment. Safety is not guaranteed, nor can it ever be, that is a fact of life. You choose to demonize a tool used by a symptom of a problem. The problem is with a culture that has no absolutes, that doesn't believe in right and wrong, that does what "feels good". Your mindless search for utopia will end in ruin, as it has in every other civilization.
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • obliviaoblivia New Member Posts: 7 New Member
    I was willing to put my life before it in defense of it. Until you do the same, you will not be my brother......all others that have, they are my brothers and sisters, as most of this forum is.....and think's the same way.

    Congratulations, you were a pawn in the federal government's standing army. Remind me how that makes you a hero on this forum.
    If it were up to you what would you do to prevent another school shooting? Careful, it's a trick question.

    If there's a crazy person living in your house, you don't have the right to keep guns in that property.
    Gun Control is the topic of this post. Now if you support Gun Control please provide any scientific study that shows that it prevents crime with a firearm or would have prevented the School shooting in Newtown, CT?

    I do support stronger gun control, but I don't know the best way of achieving it. As for scientific studies, we don't need them. The experience in the rest of the world proves that America is an outlier both in terms of gun ownership and gun deaths -- the correlation is very clear.

    I've seen some people claiming that Israel and Switzerland have high rates of gun ownership and few gun deaths, but this is simply not true. There's no right to bear arms in either country and the only people with access to firearms are trained military or law enforcement. There are no gun shows or even gun stores.
    Safety is not guaranteed, nor can it ever be, that is a fact of life.

    I agree. And I'm BRAVE enough to take my chances without a semi-automatic rifle under the bed. I don't live in FEAR.
    The problem is with a culture that has no absolutes, that doesn't believe in right and wrong, that does what "feels good".

    The constitution GUARANTEES the right of everyone to pursue their own happiness. Indeed, this was the one phrase that made America stand out from the Europeans. You have a RIGHT to do what "feels good" -- and I would argue that it's the most important right we have.

    Don't talk to me about the constitution if you don't understand this.
    Your mindless search for utopia will end in ruin, as it has in every other civilisation.

    No other country in the world has anything approaching American levels of gun violence. To mindlessly accept this state of affairs is shameful.
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,161 Senior Member
    So.........we know your stance regarding firearms........how do you feel about climate change?
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • obliviaoblivia New Member Posts: 7 New Member
    Perhaps my point could be best expressed this way: If responsible gun owners want to keep hold of their rights, they should show some interest in ensuring a framework that doesn't allow idiots to go round shooting kids.

    I'm not opposed to gun ownership. I spent part of my youth in rural England (where I am now, visiting relatives for Christmas) and as a teenager shot grouse and clays, and envied the toffs who got to go on the local fox hunt. I think it's sad that those traditional pursuits have not been protected here and would hate to see anything like that happen in the US.

    But I'm not sure that firing semi-automatic rifles for fun is a right I'd be willing to defend to the death. I'm not even sure that self-protection is a good reason for private gun ownership. Do we need an arms race among private citizens?
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    All of your arguments are based on the premise that restricting the rate of fire on firearms will prevent mass murder. That is just stupid. The worst mass murders didn't even involve firearms, and you can find no empirical evidence that suggests that regulating firearms accomplishes anything except to give the Brady Bunch a warm, fuzzy feeling for few days, till their attention spans lapse.

    Get off of your emotional roller-coaster and try to understand that you are no more heart-broken about the deaths of these children than the guy who owns and fires a hundred different firearms. There are a few dozen things that an honest government might be able to do that would make these horrible incidents less likely - restricting magazine size or rate of fire on a rifle is not one of them, and that can be shown statistically. Your arguments identify you as nothing more than another hand-wringing liberal who wants to make everything 'nice' but hasn't the balls to face facts. Don't come here and try to convince realistic people that emotional pleas and feel-good solutions do anything but 'kick the can down the road,' on any genuine issue that needs a logical solution.
  • obliviaoblivia New Member Posts: 7 New Member
    There are a few dozen things that an honest government might be able to do that would make these horrible incidents less likely - restricting magazine size or rate of fire on a rifle is not one of them, and that can be shown statistically

    Okay go. A few dozen things:
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    You first - you started all of this - I'm not going to wear myself out just so you can use your canned talking points to try to make me look foolish. We get trolls here all the time throwing bombs to put us on defense. I have a busy day ahead, but I'll get back to you, when I can, after you have made some logical points that you think prove your ideas, and there are plenty of folks here who will keep you busy and are better than I am at making these arguments. You can start with this premise:

    Assume that we have no Constitution or any other constraints on law-makers. You might want to cite some cities or states that have already instituted strict gun control laws, and show how they have lessened gun violence, with statistics, or without, if you can show some logic to support your assertions. Just make some common sense arguments that use cause and effect to show how your new rules will work.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    It seems that we're going to get treated to a lot of attention from trolls, muck-rakers, and idiots of all descriptions for a while. Just keep a cool head and don't give 'em any ammunition to use against us!
    Jerry

    So, some think the 2nd A is outdated, for Militia only, doesn't apply to today....start a petition to take away the 1st A and watch them scream like raped apes.:silly::silly::silly:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Oblivia, pay attention here. If you or your friends think that you can legislate away the power of the lone crazed gunman(or gunwoman) to wreak havoc then you are living in a dream. There are many methods available to do the same thing without firearms, and I am glad that most of these people doing such acts don't have the brain cells necessary to figure them out.

    For Israeli gun laws here they are:

    http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/israel-firearms.htm

    For Swiss gun ownership and law they are here:

    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland

    Oblivia said:
    I've seen some people claiming that Israel and Switzerland have high rates of gun ownership and few gun deaths, but this is simply not true. There's no right to bear arms in either country and the only people with access to firearms are trained military or law enforcement. There are no gun shows or even gun stores.


    The two above links refute your statement. They have the actual gun laws of the countries in question, not some 'fact' pulled out of thin air.

    Oblivia said:
    If there's a crazy person living in your house, you don't have the right to keep guns in that property.


    Please cite applicable local, state, or federal law that prevents the owner of a house in which a mentally ill person also lives prohibits them from owning and having firearms in their house. You wish to force a power over others which you or the government does not possess. Your desire to be free of fear does not trump the guaranteed natural right of self protection recognized in the Constitution and based on natural law. While you are guaranteed the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, as ol' Ben Franklin said, you have to catch them yourself. If there is a mentally ill person living in the house, the firearms should be locked up in a safe at all times except for the one you are wearing for personal protection. Same storage for kids in the house. And it's just good common sense to keep them from being misused or stolen.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,543 Senior Member
    Something a lot of people seem to have forgotten.
    Adam Lanza had to COMMIT MURDER to procure the firearms he used.

    So, oblivia, PLEASE tell me how ANY law is going to prevent a law breaker from doing something illegal?

    MURDER has been illegal since biblical times. If someone has decided to break THAT law, you think any other law is going to stop them?
    I read it before W. LaP said it in his speech, and I agree, "The only thing that will stop an evil person with a gun, is a GOOD person with a gun"
    All a ban will affect is the "good" person's ability to obtain them.

    Meth & crack are also illegal, it's so nice they did that and made the problems with them "go away" :roll:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • Mike S.Mike S. New Member Posts: 17 New Member
    And now it looks as though Obama is flirting with the idea of legalizing pot federally down the road. Isn't that just great, a sea of druggies beyond what we have now, and no firearms to defend ourselves.

    This country is going to pot alright.
    "The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.”- Thomas Jefferson
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Why do we waste our time arguing with these nutcases?
    Jerry
  • NomadacNomadac Senior Member Posts: 902 Senior Member
    oblivia wrote: »

    I'm not opposed to gun ownership. I spent part of my youth in rural England (where I am now, visiting relatives for Christmas) and as a teenager shot grouse and clays, and envied the toffs who got to go on the local fox hunt.

    But I'm not sure that firing semi-automatic rifles for fun is a right I'd be willing to defend to the death. I'm not even sure that self-protection is a good reason for private gun ownership. Do we need an arms race among private citizens?

    So you are saying the type of action for a firearm determines the right? You are not sure that self-protection is a good reason, where does it say in the 2nd that firearms are only for hunting and shooting? I guess you research this and learn the real meaning of this amendment.

    Then you would be satisfied if all semi-automatic firearms are banned? I guess the Koreans, as previously posted, that used semi-auto rifles to protect their stores during the riots in LA, or the people in LA, after Katrina hit protected their property or those ranchers along the TX, AZ border that use them for protection is valid as a good reason for ownership.

    Do you really believe that single action revolvers, double action revolvers, etc. along with lever action, bolt action, pump and single shot rifles not to mention single shot, bolt action, and pump action shotguns are more safe and would not be used if semi-action firearms were banned?

    An arms race? Semi-action firearms have been around for over 100 years. Back in the 30's you could buy full auto rifles aka machine guns in local hardware stores without any type of permit.

    Why not pass a People Control Law to stop people from committing crimes? I forgot we already have Criminal laws along with 20,000 gun laws and see how well they work to prevent crime, etc.

    I suspect growing up in England has a great influence in your thinking vs. growing up in the U.S. and our opinions and values relating to firearms and our freedoms and Rights.

    For your information the facts on Gun Deaths using firearms were involved in 8,583 Murders last year broken down by:
    Handguns 72% includes all types of action
    Rifles 4% " "
    Shotguns 4% " "
    other types 20%

    according to the FBI

    Less you ignore or realize that gun control laws have unintended consequences, and can result in a more detrimental result, should be considered.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Oblivia, I'm gonna buy you a clue since you seem bereft of funds for such. Read both "The Federalist Papers" and the "Antifederalist Papers" both of which can be accessed online, for free no less. They will explain much about the Constitution and it's beginnings with arguments for and against a strong central government. And a good bit about the Bill of Rights that was later included is in further readings.

    Riddle me this: Chicago and Washington D.C. have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the U.S. With gun ownership so low, then why is the murder rate so high in these cities? Explain in detail the high crime rates in most U.S. cities that also have restrictive gun laws, in general. I'm waiting but will not hold my breath.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • FiveSevenFiveSeven Member Posts: 289 Member
    So Oblivia.... you're saying he had a constitutional right to do what he did because to him it felt good? You do not know the meaning of "the pursuit of happiness".
    Only the optimists suggest that the future is uncertain. The pessimists have done the math.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member


    Somebody pick up a bag, we're beginning to run out. Oblivia, if you are sincere in your interest in stopping these kind of acts, then present your ideas and defend them in a civil debate. Calling a member of long standing a, "government pawn" because of his service to this country is NOT the way to earn respect and be taken seriously. He EARNED my respect, and the respect of many if not MOST of this board, BECAUSE of his service to our nation.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    oblivia wrote: »
    Congratulations, you were a pawn in the federal government's standing army. Remind me how that makes you a hero on this forum.

    How did I miss this shot over the bow? That is, in and of itself, one of the most offensive and utterly IGNORANT statements you could make. And especially here. There's lots of veterans on this forum, and some still on active duty. We all appreciate the past and continuing service to our country these members provide(d). That you would denigrate such service to ones country and scoff at it tells me much more about you than you would like me to know. You have no problem enjoying the freedom and security fought for and purchased dear by others, but feel too important and above it all to do so yourself. Aren't you special.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,814 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Why do we waste our time arguing with these nutcases?
    Jerry

    Boredom? I don't know.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,814 Senior Member
    Mike S. wrote: »
    And now it looks as though Obama is flirting with the idea of legalizing pot federally down the road. Isn't that just great, a sea of druggies beyond what we have now, and no firearms to defend ourselves.

    This country is going to pot alright.

    Yea, "pot" is the cause of all of this...:roll:

    I see so many stories of "stoners" going out and killing people. Reefer Madness..:silly:

    Do some research!
  • ThatMattGuyThatMattGuy Senior Member Posts: 666 Senior Member
    I have not kept up with this thread since I last left it but since it has everyone's attention I will post here instead of starting a new thread. I have made the annual trip up to PA to spend Christmas at the in laws. I am currently find myself once again in the middle of a huge group of people who do not understand gun ownership. Think they should all be confiscated and have a major disgust for anyone or any group that supports the right to own a gun. It started early at my wife's parents church. There was a substitute pastor and he wasted no time calling anyone that owned a firearm "insecure" "misguided" and eluded to how dangerous "they" are and how "a 30 round combat weapon does not bring the peace of Jesus" Then he went on babbling about the NRA and worked in a few shots at tea party members somehow.

    It really was all I could do to sit through it and when it was over I instantly walked out leaving the wife behind lol. Then I spent the rest of the day with her extended family most of whom are anti gun with no understanding of "us" and no interest to find out. Most of them are teachers and spent most of the day mocking the NRA's ideas and talking about how ridiculous it would be to arm teachers. These people have no interest in that idea. The hate the NRA and similar groups and INSTANTLY hate anything they suggest. They 100% blame any violence on gun owners. They can not be talked to....or reasoned with or convinced that there might be another answer. To them guns are all evil and gun owners are all dangerous wacko's.

    They have no idea about existing firearms regulations but demand more and have no interest in learning about what is on the books. They want us to pay with our rights for the violence not committed by us.

    It has been a very long day and I behaved and sat there quietly and let them talk. But my brain is worn out from trying to keep quiet. It is a losing battle being on their turf. I can't wait to be back home!
    The poster formerly known as '69MercCougar
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,814 Senior Member
    I have not kept up with this thread since I last left it but since it has everyone's attention I will post here instead of starting a new thread. I have made the annual trip up to PA to spend Christmas at the in laws. I am currently find myself once again in the middle of a huge group of people who do not understand gun ownership. Think they should all be confiscated and have a major disgust for anyone or any group that supports the right to own a gun. It started early at my wife's parents church. There was a substitute pastor and he wasted no time calling anyone that owned a firearm "insecure" "misguided" and eluded to how dangerous "they" are and how "a 30 round combat weapon does not bring the peace of Jesus" Then he went on babbling about the NRA and worked in a few shots at tea party members somehow.

    It really was all I could do to sit through it and when it was over I instantly walked out leaving the wife behind lol. Then I spent the rest of the day with her extended family most of whom are anti gun with no understanding of "us" and no interest to find out. Most of them are teachers and spent most of the day mocking the NRA's ideas and talking about how ridiculous it would be to arm teachers. These people have no interest in that idea. The hate the NRA and similar groups and INSTANTLY hate anything they suggest. They 100% blame any violence on gun owners. They can not be talked to....or reasoned with or convinced that there might be another answer. To them guns are all evil and gun owners are all dangerous wacko's.

    They have no idea about existing firearms regulations but demand more and have no interest in learning about what is on the books. They want us to pay with our rights for the violence not committed by us.

    It has been a very long day and I behaved and sat there quietly and let them talk. But my brain is worn out from trying to keep quiet. It is a losing battle being on their turf. I can't wait to be back home!

    When they are being victimized, the tune will change. I feel somewhat ashamed in saying that I would prefer not to protect them in a "situation", but I know I would (if I could) in the event.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Thatmattguy, that really sucks, but I *cannot* be silent in the face of such ignorance. Being silent gains us nothing. You need to educate yourself properly on how to carry on an intelligent conversation with logic that they cannot refute and then stick to it until they are at least forced to give some thought to what they think they *know*.

    You may not change their minds in one discussion but many of them have never even been exposed to an opposing point of view other than "It's my RIGHT".

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • ThatMattGuyThatMattGuy Senior Member Posts: 666 Senior Member
    I am smart enough to know you cant argue with stupid....
    The poster formerly known as '69MercCougar
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,814 Senior Member
    I am smart enough to know you cant argue with stupid....

    Being stupid hurts. Arguing with stupid hurts even more.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    oblivia wrote: »
    The constitution GUARANTEES the right of everyone to pursue their own happiness. Indeed, this was the one phrase that made America stand out from the Europeans. You have a RIGHT to do what "feels good" -- and I would argue that it's the most important right we have.

    Don't talk to me about the constitution if you don't understand this.

    I think you just torpedoed your own boat jackwagon........:rotflmao:
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    oblivia wrote: »
    Congratulations, you were a pawn in the federal government's standing army. Remind me how that makes you a hero on this forum.

    You're right, I was only a small part of the machine that was used to fight arabic tyranny in southwest Asia and ethnic cleansing in the area that used to be known as Yugoslavia.......quiet a juxtaposition.....shoot Muslims here, save them there. I'm no hero and don't claim to be. You want to see some REAL heroes? SirGeorgeKillian.....KSU Firefighter......JasonMPD....Zee.....GeneL......just to name a few. These are the 1st responders or were. The firemen and law enforcement officers that put their lives on the line in the name of DUTY and your butt. I'm going to go out on a limb here and presume you've never served for anything except your own fancy.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • Mike S.Mike S. New Member Posts: 17 New Member
    Michakav wrote: »
    Yea, "pot" is the cause of all of this...:roll:

    I see so many stories of "stoners" going out and killing people. Reefer Madness..:silly:

    Do some research!

    You've missed the point entirely. How embarrassing for you.
    "The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.”- Thomas Jefferson
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    Mike S. wrote: »
    And now it looks as though Obama is flirting with the idea of legalizing pot federally down the road. Isn't that just great, a sea of druggies beyond what we have now, and no firearms to defend ourselves.

    This country is going to pot alright.

    Soooo.....what WAS the point there Mike? Armed robberies for Twinkies on the rise? We might see a slight increase in negligent discharges......stupid is as stupid does (whoever penned THAT line is a gosh-darn GENIUS!).......but the same rules would apply as they would for handling a firearm while under the influence of alcohol. Go smoke a joint and tell me how motivated you would be to go commit a violent crime.

    The legalization of Marijuana was voted by states that realized our police forces and judicial system should concentrate their limited resources towards more pressing matters.....not locking up a person who just wanted to sit at home an marvel at the paint drying. The sentiment towards legalization was making it a commercial commodity so we can TAX it, and make money from it to benefit an already stressed economy. The school system needs money the government can't give......so we put up lemonade stands everywhere and now the kids have books to learn from.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
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