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DHS orders 450 million hollow points ?

104RFAST104RFAST Senior MemberPosts: 1,281 Senior Member
ATK announced a 5 yr deal with DHS ( Dept Homeland Security} to produce 450 million .40 cal HST hollow point bullets.
This is in addition to 150 million 5.56 bullets ordered by DHS from another supplier. Currently the population of the U.S.
is about 311 million. Wonder what they are planning for?? maybe they just practice a lot.

Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    Some of them practice a lot. It's easy to burn through 100 rounds in a qualification, figure 2-4 quals a year, you've shot 200-400 rounds of ammo right there. Triple that for training, you're at 600-1,200 rounds per agent at the minimum for training and qualifications. That's not including those who are out there in more direct action teams, i.e. SWAT and others. DHS includes parts of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, Federal Protective Service, and Secret Service. Some of those groups burn through a lot of ammo in training. So it wouldn't be unreasonable for something that massive, with so many trigger-pullers, to use up 90 million rounds of ammo per year. Plus they rotate the duty ammo for each weapon on an annual basis, probably.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,463 Senior Member
    But those were hollow points. Is that what they go to the range with?
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    If you didn't have to pay for ammo, what would you practice with?
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    Thats a lot of ammo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who knows what those nuts are planning???????????
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    But those were hollow points. Is that what they go to the range with?

    Maybe. It could be logistically easier to have ONE type of ammo to keep track of than several. Also, you'll know POA/POI don't change between duty and training ammo.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    Some of them train a whole bunch. They burn through quite a bit of ammo. I am sure that they train and qualify with what they carry around so that explains the hollow points. I am not concerned. Homeland Security is a huge umbrella that covers quite a bit of different organizations. I am sure that the order isn't out of the ordinary.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,463 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    If you didn't have to pay for ammo, what would you practice with?

    Depends on if I was the one purchasing said ammo...
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    If you didn't have to pay for ammo, what would you practice with?

    Not pay? You mean the expenditure doesn't come out of their budget?


    More than likely the bid (which this was) was for duty and training ammo. ATK probably gave DHS a really, really good deal on bulk HST ammo in something like a 500 round box, and the Feds went with it. Probably such a good deal it made sense to go with the whole lot. And if I had the money, I'd train with my carry ammo. Best way to make sure the stuff works in your firearm and hits to point of aim.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Not pay? You mean the expenditure doesn't come out of their budget?

    No, I mean it doesn't come out of their pockets. They could easily practice and qualify with less expensive FMJs, and stretch the budget dollar.

    When I held an FFL, I had a half dozen DOJ customers. The division they worked for switched from 40 cal to 357 sig. The armory held thousands of rounds of 40 cal that were no longer needed. Every officer that wanted the ammo took a share. Black Talons, if I remember correctly.

    Didn't seem like "budget" was an issue then.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    DOJ equals DHS in what way? Also, these are purchases from ATK, not from a FFL. Was the DOJ federal or state?

    Maybe the bidders didn't allow for FMJ. Or they said they'd cut a deal on the ammo of they bought all of one type, whereas if the split the ammo types the cost on the HPs would go up and the FMJ didn't give a good price?

    Edited to add: here's a link to the press release.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-secures-40-caliber-ammunition-contract-with-department-of-homeland-security-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12?reflink=MW_news_stmp

    Some things of note: it's for up to 5 years and up to 450 million rounds of ammo. The contract might not last that long, and that much ammo might not be delivered.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    DOJ equals DHS in what way? Also, these are purchases from ATK, not from a FFL. Was the DOJ federal or state?

    Maybe the bidders didn't allow for FMJ. Or they said they'd cut a deal on the ammo of they bought all of one type, whereas if the split the ammo types the cost on the HPs would go up and the FMJ didn't give a good price?


    They were Feds. The ammo I was referring to had nothing to do with me as an FFL, only that my relationship with the officers made me aware of the situation.

    It is quite possible that the reasons you listed above are true, but I doubt it. Given federal agencies' propensity for waste...
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,315 Senior Member
    Some of them practice a lot.

    Yep...I used to do a 100 round drill weekly....that's 5200 rounds for just one guy...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,851 Senior Member
    A friend of mine used to be a DHS agent. He said they shot a lot (he was a pilot, if that tells you anything). That number, while staggering, isn't completely outside of the realm of possibility.
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,581 Senior Member
    Buddy's wife has been a customs agent for some time now and they give her a lot of .40 cal ammo to practice, since day one, same stuff they carry too, at one range I frequented Coast Guard trains quite often and they also use the same ammo for practice and duty.

    Do the math, it never fails, DHS is made up of 200,000 members, I would think that secretaries and other employees don't carry weapons but 450 million rounds split into 5 years comes to 450 rounds per head every year, say 25% of that 200,000 carry weapons and that is 1800 rounds a year for those, not a lot IMO.
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
  • tv_racin_fantv_racin_fan Senior Member Posts: 661 Senior Member
    As I understand it they are required by law to use the same ammo practice/duty.

    I dunno how much they train or will train BUT this is not a 450 million order it is a POSSIBLY 450 million order which could easily turn into a 350 million order.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    I don't know you guys I think this sounds like they're getting ready so they have enough bullets for head shot executions of everyone who fails to bow in submission when Obama announces his plans to become supreme leader and dictator when he loses the election (plus enough left over to keep the peace at the FEMA prison camps)....

    Silly libtard! It is actually for the coup after Obama announces his plans to become supreme leader and dictator when he loses the election-- They are stocking up to overthrow him... Then they have some left over to keep the peace in the FEMA prison camps. Wambli's plan is starting to come together. Wait and see!
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    As long as we are going down the conspiracy road, I choose this one:

    The government is buying all the ammo to keep us from getting it. With the multi-billion dollar slush fund they created with stimulus money, they could easily buy every bullet that comes off the line.

    Of course, it wouldn't be like a politician to spend his slush fund on anything that didn't guarantee votes, but they may just have more than they can spend.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,864 Senior Member
    I don't know you guys I think this sounds like they're getting ready so they have enough bullets for head shot executions of everyone who fails to bow in submission when Obama announces his plans to become supreme leader and dictator when he loses the election (plus enough left over to keep the peace at the FEMA prison camps)....
    A .22lr would be enough for that or maybe a furnace.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    You guys are missing the obvious- - - - - - -all those guns that the ATF is smuggling across the border to the Mexican drug cartels aren't any good without ammo, now are they?
    Jerry
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,581 Senior Member
    That 450 million rounds DHS allegedly is gonna order for the next 5 years comes to 90 milllion per year, that's less than 1 PERCENT of the ammo sold in the US, hardly fodder for the conspiracy advocates.

    According to the Washington Post US gun owners purchased 12 BILLION rounds past year, that pesky math you guys hate so much and love to ignore shows again it's ugly face,
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
  • indiantomindiantom New Member Posts: 2 New Member
    But aren't we all paying for this ammo. I have to assume that practicing with the same ammo you will use in the field, qualifing, or practicing makes sense, "We the people" paying for it, bonus!
  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    indiantom wrote: »
    But aren't we all paying for this ammo. I have to assume that practicing with the same ammo you will use in the field, qualifing, or practicing makes sense, "We the people" paying for it, bonus!

    How did you just happen to revive a thread that's 9 months old???? Just curious...
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
  • NomadacNomadac Senior Member Posts: 902 Senior Member
    bruchi wrote: »
    That 450 million rounds DHS allegedly is gonna order for the next 5 years comes to 90 milllion per year, that's less than 1 PERCENT of the ammo sold in the US, hardly fodder for the conspiracy advocates.

    According to the Washington Post US gun owners purchased 12 BILLION rounds past year, that pesky math you guys hate so much and love to ignore shows again it's ugly face,

    According to this article "Homeland Security Now Armed With Enough Ammo for 24 Year Long Iraq War" By: Jim Hoft 2/16/2013 10:32 AM
    http://www.humanevents.com/2013/02/16/homeland-security-now-armed-with-enough-ammo-for-24-year-long-iraq-war/

    To provide some perspective, experts estimate that at the peak of the Iraq war American troops were firing around 5.5 million rounds per month. At that rate, DHS is armed now for a 24-year Iraq war.

    Mark Levin told his audience the government is buying the vast amounts of ammo to prepare for the collapse of our financial system and our society.

    Obama’s Homeland Security Department has purchased 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition – that is not a typo — during the last six months.

    So you accept this as reasonable?
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,187 Senior Member
    Nomadac wrote: »


    Mark Levin told his audience the government is buying the vast amounts of ammo to prepare for the collapse of our financial system and our society.

    Obama’s Homeland Security Department has purchased 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition – that is not a typo — during the last six months.

    So you accept this as reasonable?

    Judging by the marksmanship skills as evidenced by what has hit the news lately.............its not nearly enough.
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    Where are they storing it?
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Nomadac wrote: »
    According to this article "Homeland Security Now Armed With Enough Ammo for 24 Year Long Iraq War" By: Jim Hoft 2/16/2013 10:32 AM
    http://www.humanevents.com/2013/02/16/homeland-security-now-armed-with-enough-ammo-for-24-year-long-iraq-war/

    To provide some perspective, experts estimate that at the peak of the Iraq war American troops were firing around 5.5 million rounds per month. At that rate, DHS is armed now for a 24-year Iraq war.

    Mark Levin told his audience the government is buying the vast amounts of ammo to prepare for the collapse of our financial system and our society.


    Obama’s Homeland Security Department has purchased 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition – that is not a typo — during the last six months.

    So you accept this as reasonable?

    More and more I'm starting to think this is EXACTLY what is going on.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • terminator012terminator012 Senior Member Posts: 3,929 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    More and more I'm starting to think this is EXACTLY what is going on.

    Luis

    X2
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