All I'm getting at here is when a manufacturer says something is designed for a specific purpose then I don't believe we should advertise it for other use. Well, not unless we are a research facility and have done exhaustive research according to a scientific research plan. The same person shooting 10-20 deer-hogs with a bullet doth not a fact proclaim. For one thing, Zee is known as a professional shooter, therefore I would say his expertise at such probably is good enough that his bullet placement capability is above average. As we all know here or at least we should by now, bullet placement will make up for a lot of sin. A bullet that would be marginal for an average hack shot hunter would probably be no problem for an exper, bt.
(OK, I'm adding this statement at about 1 AM Tuesday April 9th because it looks like I wrote all of this at the same time. But I called Hornady and talked to the Tech Rep a few minutes before I typed the edit below.)
It seems the problem with a Hornady A-Max is not that the jacket is too thin, but that it is thicker than normal. They are made like this so the bullet will hold together better at a higher RPM. Rifle barrels with tighter twist rates are necessary to help stablize longer match bullets with Hi BCs necessary for long range match shooting, such as 1000 yard matches. Hornady will not classify or dub these bullets for hunting because they may not expand properly. They say they have never done expansion tests on A-Max bullets because they are used for target shooting, an activity for which expansion is not needed. However, with good shot placement they will kill very well since they hold together well. However, for the unwashed masses this could be a problem, especially for a hunter that's used to pie plate accuracy and depends on bullet expansion for killing game more than pin point accuracy. That's all I'm saying.
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
It seems the problem with a Hornady A-Max is not that the jacket is too thin, but that it is thicker than normal. They are made like this so the bullet will hold together better at a higher RPM. Rifle barrels with tighter twist rates are necessary to help stable longer match bullets with Hi BCs, necessary for long range match shooting, such as 1000 yard matches. Hornady will not classify or dub these bullets for hunting because they may not expand properly. They say they have never done expansion tests on A-Max bullets because they are used for target shooting, an activity for which expansion is not needed. However, with good shot placement they will kill very well since they hold together well. However, for the unwashed masses this could be a problem, especially for a hunter that's used to pie plate accuracy and depends on bullet expansion for killing game more than pin point accuracy. That's all I'm saying.
Where did you come up with this? I'm curious.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
All I'm getting at here is when a manufacturer says something is designed for a specific purpose then I don't believe we should advertise it for other use.
Can a handgun or rifle, designed for competition, be used for self defense or hunting?
Can an AR-15, designed for defense, be used for plinking or hunting?
Just because something is designed for a specific purpose does NOT mean that it cannot be used just as effectively for something else. That's not rocket science.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Just because something is designed for a specific purpose does NOT mean that it cannot be used just as effectively for something else. That's not rocket science.
Zee, don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I use the A-Max bullets for loading my 6.5 x 55 and 5 x 57 ammunition for deer hunting. None I've shot have complained about the bullet being inadequate for the purpose; they all died rapidly, which is what I want for a humane kill.
Nice hog, too! :up:
“I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer” ― Douglas Adams
Just a thought, but if Hornady reccomends their AMax bullets only for match use, why do they load them into their TAP line of bullets? They claim they are: Loaded with Hornady bullets that deliver the terminal performance law enforcement and military professionals have trusted for years
Just a thought, but if Hornady reccomends their AMax bullets only for match use, why do they load them into their TAP line of bullets? They claim they are: Loaded with Hornady bullets that deliver the terminal performance law enforcement and military professionals have trusted for years
You are a smart ape.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Just a thought, but if Hornady reccomends their AMax bullets only for match use, why do they load them into their TAP line of bullets? They claim they are: Loaded with Hornady bullets that deliver the terminal performance law enforcement and military professionals have trusted for years
Zee, don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I use the A-Max bullets for loading my 6.5 x 55 and 5 x 57 ammunition for deer hunting. None I've shot have complained about the bullet being inadequate for the purpose; they all died rapidly, which is what I want for a humane kill.
Nice hog, too! :up:
Thanks. But, this is beyond the A-Max, now. This is delving into common sense...............or the lack thereof.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
All this got me thinking about jacket thickness, so i called Sierra & Hornady, both said that the jackets on V-MAX, A-MAX & MK, have thinner jackets, even on the lo-drag and VLD that have much higher rotational speeds than so called standard twists. Match bullets are held to a closer tolerance than hunting bullets ( but we already knew that ) As far as i'm conserned i dont care what one uses as long as tries his best to make a quick kill.
Oh yeah damn nice hog.
JAY
THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
Looks like I'm late to the party. Oh well. I'm caught up now.
A-Max for hunting? No way! Give me a Speer Grand Slam every time.
Ok, I'm kidding. I have no experience with the A-Max and will rely on other's results. A long time ago a wise man told me he never argued with results. These are words I took to heart, and still do.
Most of what I shoot are short action rifles, and don't do well with COALs greater than 2.8 inches, so I probably won't try the A-Max in any of them. I might give them a try in my 7mag, or the 06 I inherited from my dad, though. Maybe.
Zee, my compliments to you for taking the kiddos out and let them experience what hunting is all about. Well done!
Jerry
Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
All this got me thinking about jacket thickness, so i called Sierra & Hornady, both said that the jackets on V-MAX, A-MAX & MK, have thinner jackets, even on the lo-drag and VLD that have much higher rotational speeds than so called standard twists. Match bullets are held to a closer tolerance than hunting bullets ( but we already knew that ) As far as i'm conserned i dont care what one uses as long as tries his best to make a quick kill.
Oh yeah damn nice hog.
JAY
Correct!
Which, is why I was wondering where Snake came up with that thick jacket idea of his. Knew he was pulling that out of thin air. Well, that or his butt.
I view the A-Max as a better built Ballistic Tip on steroids. Anything you would use a Nosler Ballistic Tip on, you can use an A-Max as well.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
You kill things in the dark and even your children have Photoshopped thumbprints for faces. You don't have a family - you have a ninja clan.:jester:
You motivate me Zed. I want to try that same shot with one of my Barnes 168gr TTSX's so we can compare autopsy findings. I'm happy with how it performed on my wee little California rat-deer, but as small as he was, I don't think the bullet even really noticed he was there - gotta shoot something bigger with one.
The only problem with THAT plan is since I've gotten into casting, I ALSO want to shoot critters with Keith semi-wadcutters. . .Hmmmm. . .stand by for PM.
OOOPS! In an earlier reply I said I used the same round on a big buck but after reading the heated discussions about the A Max round I checked my ammo and saw that I used a Hornady (match grade hunter) Custom 150 gr Interlock SST polymer tip. There are several subtle differences in the make up of the Custom vs A Max bullets such as a thinner and more consistent jacket of the A Max.
I am more than satisfied with the performance of the Custom round but again the key to a clean kill is PLACEMENT. My expertise is worth what you paid for it.
Go on Google (hornady bullets) for more info.
You kill things in the dark and even your children have Photoshopped thumbprints for faces. You don't have a family - you have a ninja clan.:jester:
Well, in this case, the kids get their looks from their dad.
You motivate me Zed. I want to try that same shot with one of my Barnes 168gr TTSX's so we can compare autopsy findings. I'm happy with how it performed on my wee little California rat-deer, but as small as he was, I don't think the bullet even really noticed he was there - gotta shoot something bigger with one.
I'm willing to bet that TTSX will exit. Don't know how the internal damage would compare. Would be interesting to see.
So many are simply interested in dead. I want to know HOW it got dead. Much to learn by taking the time and doing a detailed post mortem. Gives one grounds to actually have a somewhat educated opinion other than, "Yeah, it works". I enjoy doing them.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
OOOPS! In an earlier reply I said I used the same round on a big buck but after reading the heated discussions about the A Max round I checked my ammo and saw that I used a Hornady (match grade hunter) Custom 150 gr Interlock SST polymer tip. There are several subtle differences in the make up of the Custom vs A Max bullets such as a thinner and more consistent jacket of the A Max.I am more than satisfied with the performance of the Custom round but again the key to a clean kill is PLACEMENT. My expertise is worth what you paid for it.Go on Google (hornady bullets) for more info.
No worries. I've used the SST bullet to take one animal. That was with a 117gr SST out of my .25-06 and on a deer. It did a good job. Decent amount of damage and she fell righ over. I'm just not a big fan of crimp rings on bullets that aren't going in lever actions or calibers from .4 and up.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Who am I to go against the recommendations of a company. I will therefore, no longer utilize the A-Max bullet in the killing of common air breathing creatures.
]
Bah.....critters dead...your happy....screw the factory....Partitions are recommended for hunting...and my dad hates 'em...lost 2 animals...and had to search forever to recover a 3rd.....he figures the front opened to fast and the back half just punched through...leaving no blood trail....so in his real experience the Partition is not for hunting.....oh well....I guess if it's stupid...but it works...it ain't that stupid......Ken
Which, is why I was wondering where Snake came up with that thick jacket idea of his. Knew he was pulling that out of thin air. Well, that or his butt.
I view the A-Max as a better built Ballistic Tip on steroids. Anything you would use a Nosler Ballistic Tip on, you can use an A-Max as well.
I got it from a tech rep on the phone. He told me that A-Max bullets were specifically for longer range target shooting. They were built with a thicker jacket to withstand the higher RPM of a tight twist barrel without disintegrating.
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
I'm confused, we got one rep saying its thin and another saying its thick. Which is it?
:silly:
I don't know. I never said a rep told me they were thin. I know a lot of match bullets or more conventional match bullets have fairly thin jackets. But according to Hornady, the Amax has a thicker jacket, which may be why you get away with killing a lot of game with it. Does it have a Hollow Point? Even if the jacket is thicker it should expand better with a hollow point. Call them yourself and see what they tell you. One thing I do know is the reason they won't recommend it for hunting is because they have never done expansion tests.
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Someone else called them and was told it was a thin jacket. He posted this above.
Not to mention, if they haven't done expansion tests, why do the use the A-Max bullet in their TAP line of ammo which is highly effective at killing PEOPLE? Read Breams post above. Hornady comments on its terminal performance on their web site.
So, good terminal performance on people. But, not recommended for hunting. And, they've never done expansion tests?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Regardless, I've done quite a few expansion tests. Through several and various media. I like what I've seen.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Replies
(OK, I'm adding this statement at about 1 AM Tuesday April 9th because it looks like I wrote all of this at the same time. But I called Hornady and talked to the Tech Rep a few minutes before I typed the edit below.)
It seems the problem with a Hornady A-Max is not that the jacket is too thin, but that it is thicker than normal. They are made like this so the bullet will hold together better at a higher RPM. Rifle barrels with tighter twist rates are necessary to help stablize longer match bullets with Hi BCs necessary for long range match shooting, such as 1000 yard matches. Hornady will not classify or dub these bullets for hunting because they may not expand properly. They say they have never done expansion tests on A-Max bullets because they are used for target shooting, an activity for which expansion is not needed. However, with good shot placement they will kill very well since they hold together well. However, for the unwashed masses this could be a problem, especially for a hunter that's used to pie plate accuracy and depends on bullet expansion for killing game more than pin point accuracy. That's all I'm saying.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Where did you come up with this? I'm curious.
Can a handgun or rifle, designed for competition, be used for self defense or hunting?
Can an AR-15, designed for defense, be used for plinking or hunting?
Just because something is designed for a specific purpose does NOT mean that it cannot be used just as effectively for something else. That's not rocket science.
Zee, don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I use the A-Max bullets for loading my 6.5 x 55 and 5 x 57 ammunition for deer hunting. None I've shot have complained about the bullet being inadequate for the purpose; they all died rapidly, which is what I want for a humane kill.
Nice hog, too! :up:
― Douglas Adams
How many animals do you think a company shoots before releasing a hunting bullet? How extensive do you think their post mortem tests are in the field?
You are a smart ape.
"The Un-Tactical"
Thanks. But, this is beyond the A-Max, now. This is delving into common sense...............or the lack thereof.
I will fear no evil: For I carry a .308 and not a .270
Super glue was originally designed for use a stitchless means of closing a wound up in the battle field.
Oh yeah damn nice hog.
JAY
A-Max for hunting? No way! Give me a Speer Grand Slam every time.
Ok, I'm kidding. I have no experience with the A-Max and will rely on other's results. A long time ago a wise man told me he never argued with results. These are words I took to heart, and still do.
Most of what I shoot are short action rifles, and don't do well with COALs greater than 2.8 inches, so I probably won't try the A-Max in any of them. I might give them a try in my 7mag, or the 06 I inherited from my dad, though. Maybe.
Zee, my compliments to you for taking the kiddos out and let them experience what hunting is all about. Well done!
Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
Correct!
Which, is why I was wondering where Snake came up with that thick jacket idea of his. Knew he was pulling that out of thin air. Well, that or his butt.
I view the A-Max as a better built Ballistic Tip on steroids. Anything you would use a Nosler Ballistic Tip on, you can use an A-Max as well.
Start eating.
Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
I would think with a 5x57....You would want want a Partition bullet...or better Mike........Ken
You kill things in the dark and even your children have Photoshopped thumbprints for faces. You don't have a family - you have a ninja clan.:jester:
You motivate me Zed. I want to try that same shot with one of my Barnes 168gr TTSX's so we can compare autopsy findings. I'm happy with how it performed on my wee little California rat-deer, but as small as he was, I don't think the bullet even really noticed he was there - gotta shoot something bigger with one.
The only problem with THAT plan is since I've gotten into casting, I ALSO want to shoot critters with Keith semi-wadcutters. . .Hmmmm. . .stand by for PM.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
I am more than satisfied with the performance of the Custom round but again the key to a clean kill is PLACEMENT. My expertise is worth what you paid for it.
Go on Google (hornady bullets) for more info.
So many are simply interested in dead. I want to know HOW it got dead. Much to learn by taking the time and doing a detailed post mortem. Gives one grounds to actually have a somewhat educated opinion other than, "Yeah, it works". I enjoy doing them.
Bah.....critters dead...your happy....screw the factory....Partitions are recommended for hunting...and my dad hates 'em...lost 2 animals...and had to search forever to recover a 3rd.....he figures the front opened to fast and the back half just punched through...leaving no blood trail....so in his real experience the Partition is not for hunting.....oh well....I guess if it's stupid...but it works...it ain't that stupid......Ken
The fact that your my friend would seem to make that very apparent.
I got it from a tech rep on the phone. He told me that A-Max bullets were specifically for longer range target shooting. They were built with a thicker jacket to withstand the higher RPM of a tight twist barrel without disintegrating.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
:silly:
I don't know. I never said a rep told me they were thin. I know a lot of match bullets or more conventional match bullets have fairly thin jackets. But according to Hornady, the Amax has a thicker jacket, which may be why you get away with killing a lot of game with it. Does it have a Hollow Point? Even if the jacket is thicker it should expand better with a hollow point. Call them yourself and see what they tell you. One thing I do know is the reason they won't recommend it for hunting is because they have never done expansion tests.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Someone else called them and was told it was a thin jacket. He posted this above.
Not to mention, if they haven't done expansion tests, why do the use the A-Max bullet in their TAP line of ammo which is highly effective at killing PEOPLE? Read Breams post above. Hornady comments on its terminal performance on their web site.
So, good terminal performance on people. But, not recommended for hunting. And, they've never done expansion tests?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Regardless, I've done quite a few expansion tests. Through several and various media. I like what I've seen.
168 grain 308 Win
"The Un-Tactical"
http://www.hornady.com/store/308-Win-168-gr-FPD/?mobile_state=full
Oh, and they don't recommend it for hunting? Then why are they advertising the A-Max for hunting here on their site?
http://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/scrapbook/wyoming-hunt-bea-morse
http://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/scrapbook/one-shot-one-kill-lance-corporal-mitchell-hunter-burch-usmcr?mobile_state=full