Boston bombing police action -- too much, little, or okay?

samzheresamzhere BannedPosts: 10,923 Senior Member
In the search for the bombers (how successful the final search for the 2nd guy was, regardless), there was a huge presence of LEOs and other responders.

I think it was justified and correct, despite some mistakes (tell me when any large scale action doesn't have mistakes).

Obama also made some statements in his speech that were pretty intense, such as searching out the instigators no matter what, as long as it took. Again, regardless of whether he was blowing smoke or meant it (I'm undecided on that), taking his statements at face value, they were fairly strong.

I often listen to talk radio even though I don't necessarily believe what I hear -- I listen mostly for entertainment. And as you all know, the later in the evening, the crazier talk shows get, until late night it's full tilt conspiracy theory.

Well, I've heard a couple of commentators saying that the Regime, and government in general, overreacted and put on a paper-tiger type show of force for little gain, or mostly for PR gain.

Now, I think of myself as a conservative Republican and sympathize with much of the Teaparty agenda, but I also think that it's counterproductive to our goals to diss Obama just because.

Face it: If he'd been laid back and didn't go all out on committing resources to the search, critics would say he was sandbagging or wimping out. But when he reacts with considerable vigor, he's then criticized for overreacting. Those critics can't have it both ways, I think.

Consider this... imagine Bush or any other Republican president in such situation, and his committing large resources to the action. Most conservatives would hail this as righteous, correct me if I'm wrong (I often am). Regardless of my opinions about Obama's other actions, I think he did the right thing here, just like I think he's doing the right thing on the drone strikes.

How do you see this particular situation, leaving other matters alone for now?

Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

Replies

  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,612 Senior Member
    If it takes $130M to catch two unexperienced kids.... What would it take to catch an actual Al-Qaeda cell?
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    A teenager escapes from a huge mob of jackbooted thugs, and they over-react out of embarrassment. The fact that they trampled on a lot of people's rights in the process doesn't surprise me. Making somebody with a huge collection of high-priced toys look like a jerk usually provokes a totally inappropriate response.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,269 Senior Member
    I just have to believe that during the planning session for the house-to-house searches there HAD to be one voice of reason in the room that said "Uhhhhhh Chief? There might be some Constitutional issues here"....and maybe everyone was just too amped up to hear it.

    This is the reason we always had an outspoken JAG officer included in planning emergency responses...We didn't always pay heed, but By God, we knew when we were treading on thin ice......
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    I am not going to monday-morning quarterback the police, national guard, FBI, and/or anybody else involved in the manhunt for the Tsareav brothers. It's not like we have bona-fide terrorist bombs go off every day (yet). It is still an incredibly rare occurrence, and no police department in the country has very much experience dealing with the real thing. You can train day in and day out and no matter what plans you make, they won't survive first contact with the enemy. On top of that, every event like this is different, with its own unique set of circumstances. The bottom line is the officials managing this effort achieved a remarkable level of cooperation between many different agencies and succeeded in killing/capturing the bad guys in what must be some sort of record time.

    Everything wasn't perfect and so what? It's not a pefect world. Get over it. Adjust your expectations and come back down to earth. All in all, a stunning success, and a blue-ribbon display of our crime-solving capability and professionalism that will give future terrorists fits.
  • 1965Jeff1965Jeff Senior Member Posts: 1,614 Senior Member
    Really the locals took care of business as well as they could considering the situation could turn on them with more bombings etc. occurring at any time. The FBI though stinks to high heaven seeing as how they vetted the guy on the warnings from Soviet anti-terror units. How does the FBI explain letting the older brother slip through their fingers before he went on a 6 month terror training camp?
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,269 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    The bottom line is the officials managing this effort achieved a remarkable level of cooperation between many different agencies and succeeded in killing/capturing the bad guys in what must be some sort of record time.

    Thanks to the civilian that spotted the guy after all the LE, NG, FBI, etc packed up and got ready to go home for the night.....just sayin.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Y'all have some excellent points here, great feedback. That's why I like this forum, plenty of smart, sharp opinions although there may be disagreements.

    I understand the waste of money per the results, but if we look at any normal police presence during "routine" times, it may appear that their time is wasted, too. But often the presence itself is a deterrent.

    I'm still of the opinion that there was not much choice in the situation, and that full bore was the best decision, even though the waste of money.

    As for bending civil rights, that's something that I understand, but again, in this situation, nobody knew whether this was a large cell and if more bombs were waiting to be planted.

    All in all, a tricky decision and mistakes were certainly made. But this is the most active terrorist manhunt in the US, ever (that California guy was dangerous but a lone wolf) and hopefully the govt will learn from their excesses. Maybe.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • agewonagewon Senior Member Posts: 655 Senior Member
    1965Jeff wrote: »
    Really the locals took care of business as well as they could considering the situation could turn on them with more bombings etc. occurring at any time. The FBI though stinks to high heaven seeing as how they vetted the guy on the warnings from Soviet anti-terror units. How does the FBI explain letting the older brother slip through their fingers before he went on a 6 month terror training camp?

    I think this is the bigger story. From what I heard, they overlooked him due to a spelling discrepancy?
    All the money we are spending on DHS, and we actually got a tip and let that slip through the cracks? With all the red tape, civil rights, and other BS, the government has the juevos to say that JP Morgan is too big to be run by one person, but of course they are infallible?
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,891 Senior Member
    The police reaction that day had little to do with the bombing and EVERYTHING to do with two cops getting shot, one fatally. The bombing was a week earlier.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,946 Senior Member
    I will always say what I think about this libtard regime. It pisses me off when Obama tries to bully his way around to get what he wants. That pertains to stuff like Obamacare and Gun Control. However, I'm not bad mouthing him when he does a good job. There may have been some instances of Constitutional Breaches, but seeing what they were up against, remember they didn't know at first who did this and later even when they didn't know who else might have been envolved, and we didn't know what they might do next. I think all who were concerned and in on this did a good job catching up to these guys as fast as they did. Of course, we didn't realize that they were dealing with ameteurs at the time.

    With the bin Laden raid, like I have said before, that operation was not started by the Obama administration. It was started under Bush. So I don't give Obama and gang a gold star for it or at least not the whole cigar. However, i do give Obama credit for either deciding to or listening to good advice about, keeping Robert Gates on the job. I think that made the difference and I think if Obama is honest he would admit that. Whatever, he did so and the operation was a success mainly, I think, because of it.

    And the last week in Boston I think everyone concerned overall did an excellent job. Besides, it wasn't so much the fed here. A lot of the success was due to the local authorities. But what i liked about Obama in this instance(God, I can't believe I said that) was he didn't tippy toe around on egg shells like he was afraind to act like he had balls. He at least talked like he had some, and that's worth something in itself and an improvement over some Dummycrapic regimes of the past (Can you say Jaime Carter?).
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,846 Senior Member
    They outperformed the LAPD by a long shot. Not saying that's a high bar, but a step in the right direction at least.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,612 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Divide the total budget of the DHS by the number of "terrorists" caught. That works out to about $1 billion per pound. Almost as expensive as what I pay for venison :tooth:

    Actually..... they didn't catch either terrorist. The first was ran over by the second, and a civilian caught the second! :nono:
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,846 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    If it takes $130M to catch two unexperienced kids.... What would it take to catch an actual Al-Qaeda cell?

    I always question these sorts of estimates. Did they hire any extra cops or agents? Did they buy any extra specialized equipment in the few days after the bombing? These estimates always seem to include all the man hours that go into an operation like this. In one way it's a correct accounting, but from a tax dollar perspective all of those cops, agents would have been getting paid those days anyway. The real incremental cost of this manhunt is just whatever overtime was paid to the local cops and some extra fuel burned in cruisers and choppers. The rest would have been spent regardless on base salaries and all the high tech toys that sit in storage 99% of the time.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,846 Senior Member
    1965Jeff wrote: »
    How does the FBI explain letting the older brother slip through their fingers before he went on a 6 month terror training camp?

    Really? The guy went home to Russia where most of his family still lives. If he really was spending his time in a "terror training camp" wouldn't that be Russia's responsibility to deal with and not the FBI? Why is Russia allowing terror training camps on their own soil? The idea that we can somehow ferret out every single individual that becomes radicalized or decides to do something crazy is ridiculous. Yeah there were warning signs with this guy, but from someone's perspective there are probably "warning signs" for 2/3 of the people here. Most of us keep large numbers of firearms and ammo in our homes and most have a healthy distrust of our government. I know many of you see a difference between these attackers and the mass shooters and many other acts of violence, but while ideologically their might be, operationally these guys were effectively lone wolves that had no obvious ties to any larger organization. I have a hard time coming up with any method that would have been effective in catching these guys before the attack that isn't extremely scary from a civil liberties perspective.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,612 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I imagine that part of the cost estimate is also lost revenue-wages for regular joes, as well as Leo salaries.

    :that:

    How many businesses closed, how many people didn't go to work???
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,946 Senior Member
    They outperformed the LAPD by a long shot. Not saying that's a high bar, but a step in the right direction at least.

    I agree somewhat, but then again, I'm not gonna flush LAPD down the toilet either because I can only imagine what it's like to be a cop in commiefornia and have your hands tied to where you can barely function as a person, much less like a cop.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • rapier5316rapier5316 Member Posts: 312 Member
    One thing seems apparent: No marksmanship awards will be passed out.
    "The power of the United States has peaked, oppression follows." Robert Prector, Socionomics.net
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,765 Senior Member
    Before I would make any judgements on the performance of the local LEOs, I would want to know how much influence the Feds had on the upper decision-making process. Everyone I saw in press conferences seemed competent enough. I would like to know a lot more about the two shoot-outs that expended hundreds of rifle and pistol rounds and resulted in one dead and one wounded. The bottom line is that they succeeded in ending a threat of unknown magnitude in a relatively short time, without killing or maiming innocent bystanders - something many large police forces have been having a hard time accomplishing, in recent years.

    I would also want to see how the Israelis handle similar situations, since they have more experience than anyone else. We might not be able to adopt all of their methods, since they don't have a constitution to be adhered to (I think?), but you can bet they are effective in the results they achieve, and cost-efficient.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,032 Senior Member
    rapier5316 wrote: »
    One thing seems apparent: No marksmanship awards will be passed out.

    If you're referring to the LAPD officers you're right...over 100 hits on the newpaper delivery truck and no one killed (thank God) that bit of misidentification & overreaction cost the LA taxpayers a $4.5 million settlement. Plus another $40,000.00 for the truck loss....the killed the Nissan!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I agree somewhat, but then again, I'm not gonna flush LAPD down the toilet either because I can only imagine what it's like to be a cop in commiefornia and have your hands tied to where you can barely function as a person, much less like a cop.

    snake, I pretty much agree with what you've said here. Regardless of mistakes, I think the LEOs did the best they could, and even though they didn't catch #2 directly, their pursuit led to his holing up and not escaping town. And yeah, #1 got run over by his bro, but that was after the police chase that put the two bombers into that desperate bind.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    The folks here are sooo smart and up to date on what's happening, and have such intelligent opinions, that we're pretty lucky to have threads like this for our honest and forthright debates. We may not always agree but we do try to examine the other person's point and learn from it. It's also good that none of us appear to be total blockheads (okay, maybe alphasig ... just kidding, alpha!) and that there don't seem to be total conspiracy nutjobs here.

    In contrast, here's this story from the Fox news site about this loony Florida professor. He said that the Sandy Hook shooting was a fake staged event, and now he's saying the same about the Marathon bombing. For your amusement, check this out -- what's not funny of course is that this idiot is running loose to teach kids:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/24/controversial-professor-who-denied-sandy-hook-shooting-now-questions-boston/

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • 1965Jeff1965Jeff Senior Member Posts: 1,614 Senior Member
    The question here is why did the FBI consider it important enough to interview the potential terrorist , but not important enough to follow up on a guy flying to a state that has a problem with militant sects,(I don't want to say Muslims,since not every one is a jihadist.) do they really have that many people on their watch lists? Was he really not worth a second look. (20-20 hindsight, I know.) If I am a potential problem with a large, (Not large enough in my opinion- although my spouse will disagree.) store of weapons and ammo in my abode they must be peeing down their respective legs with all the unknown weapons that the general populace possesses ...
  • JamesAPrattIIIJamesAPrattIII Member Posts: 156 Member
    Looking at it locking down the city was a bad idea. They didn't catch the 2nd suspect. He was found by the boats owner. It hurt the areas economy. This also is America not some 3rd world country. I noticed the Govenor said "lock your doors' no mention of loading your guns because the people of Mass. can't do this because it is against state law i believe.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,221 Senior Member
    Since the Feds are all screaming about gun control, I hope they charge the guy with all the Federal gun laws he broke, and they are legion. Same for the state when/if they charge him. He has a whole basketful of gun laws he broke in Mass.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • ace7644ace7644 Member Posts: 55 Member
    I think that the response was a little overblown. Even after all that it was a civilian who found the last bomber and called it in. I work at a Bio research company on the same street the cop (who I went to college with and has been to my place a few times for parties) was killed. It actually happened like 1000 feet from where I work. We got shut down on Friday as did all of Boston and I can only imagine the money lost by businesses being forced to close. I'm glad it's over but I hope that this doesn't open the door for Gov. Patrick to declare martial law the next time someone knocks over a 7/11 or something. (after all, a few months ago he ordered us all to stay off the roads because of snow or face a fine.) seems like it's just getting easier and easier for him...
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Just because Patrick needs to squat to pee, he thinks the whole state should be just like him!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • damnthingdamnthing Member Posts: 32 Member
    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
    Almost 10 days since the bombing and the investigation is still underway. It may be weeks or months before most of the facts are made known.
    In my opinion, given both the carnage as well as the overarching threat -more bombs, more bombers, more targets, domestic or foreign terrorists- it was and should have been a balls out effort.
    I would be willing to bet that, rather than packing it in and calling it quits, LE were probably sure they had Suspect #2 ringed in. Yes a civilian did find him and from reports LEO were on site in minutes. I think they were already closing in on him.
    There was an article from a person who lived in a house, either next to or behind the yard where the suspect was hiding. While he watched (and photo'd) from his 3rd floor, his roommate late told him that a bullet had entered a room, pierced a chair back and lodged in the ball. Sometimes people have to be removed so that LE can operate more efficiently and effectively. In cases like this, it's not jackbooted thuggery but rather an attempt to do a very dangerous job while not endangering more civilians. If you think of LEOs as family, friends or neighbors trying to perform a dangerous -and often thankless- job, then you really have to take your hat off to them.
    Of course, imagine if civilians had been injured or killed by being in the way or being mistaken for the suspects (Dorner). So for the time being, I'm on board with what transpired in Boston/Watertown. Five days, from bombing to in custody, that's a pretty damn good use of resources in my book.

    As for the complaint about Mass. Governor keeping people off of the roads because of a snow storm, that was probably winter storm Nemo, "Boston recorded 24.9 inches of snow, making it the fifth-largest storm in the city since records were kept." Nothing like a bunch of idiots out driving around in a blizzard, interfering with snow removal and emergency vehicles.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    You make some good points, damn, and I generally agree. Although I do see mistakes were made, I tentatively think that the police actions in Boston were justified. Their intent was correct and not off base. Other than 9/11, we in the US really don't have much experience dealing with an immediate terrorist threat. So we need to study the mistakes made in Boston and learn from them. Were I running things, I'd get some expert advice and consultation from the Israelis.

    Thanks again, everybody, for some first rate commentary. This forum is the best!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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