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Interesting 'stopping power' evaluation of 1800 shootings by instructor

bisleybisley Senior MemberPosts: 10,813 Senior Member
I swiped this from another forum. It isn't a large enough sampling to answer all the questions, but the guy has a good common sense analysis of the data and the main conclusions he drew from it make sense.
What I believe that my numbers show is that in the majority of shootings, the person shot merely gives up without being truly incapacitated by the bullet. In such an event, almost any bullet will perform admirably. If you want to be prepared to deal with someone who won't give up so easily, or you want to be able to have good performance even after shooting through an intermediate barrier, I would skip carrying the "mouse gun" .22s, .25s and .32s.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Replies

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    Or...maybe not. :zzzz:
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,919 Senior Member
    Actually that's the numbers some of us were looking for in this thread:

    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?15450-Caliber-Queens-This-Is-Your-Thread!

    And the of your article has a different takeaway than the OP of that thread.

    It also seems to confirm most of what folks have been saying: use a good handgun of 9mm/.38 Special with modern ammo, and there's not that much difference anymore.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    Ah. No wonder. Carry on.

    That's the nice thing about 'old timers' disease - you get to read old stuff and enjoy it again, watch old TV shows, again, and meet lots of interesting people that already know you. :silly:
  • zeke4351zeke4351 Member Posts: 31 Member
    All these great studies leave out one important caliber that was used and a lot of people shot with it. The study goes back 10 years and there were some LE agencies using the 10mm in that time period. I think the 10mm gets left out on purpose because if the results were used it would show that all calibers are not equal and the newbies are going to find out the truth. These experts have been claiming no difference in caliber and I don't think that is true at all if the 10mm is thrown in the mix. If you knew you were going to be shot and could pick the caliber which would you pick?u6yze8a6.jpg
    Somebody has added the mushroom cloud but leaving it out still shows a big difference.
  • Mike WeberMike Weber Member Posts: 91 Member
    I've not had any doubts of the effectiveness of the 10mm. After witnessing a shooting involving a sheriffs deputy and a knife wielding crazy a few years back.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,160 Senior Member
    Mike Weber wrote: »
    I've not had any doubts of the effectiveness of the 10mm. After witnessing a shooting involving a sheriffs deputy and a knife wielding crazy a few years back.

    I do not buy the 10mm it hurts your wrist comment, I make no bones about not liking excessive recoil; but 10mm isn't too much.
    But, it is a factor of the gun used because relatively wimpy rnds can be a recoil burden such as .38spl +P in a small revolver.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    I'm a big fan of 10mm, and I agree that it deserves a prominent place in any discussion of 'stopping power.'

    But, I think the guy who did this study did draw a reasonable conclusion from the data sampling that he used, i.e. that 'stopping power' is an elusive term to define. He makes it clear, in his conclusions, that a more powerful weapon than the most popular pistol chamberings is needed for a certain stop against a determined attacker, in any conceivable situation.

    He is just saying that the odds are in your favor that the average attacker will cease his attack when hit in a vital spot with most handguns, even though he might still be physically able to continue the attack. Adding follow-up shots increases this likelihood, in direct proportion to the number of rounds fired into vital locations. He clearly states that a rifle or shotgun is the desired weapon for gun fighting. In my opinion, the 10mm is a very good compromise between the more common handgun rounds and a rifle. If I were a LEO, or in any high risk situation, the G20 would be my first choice, because in addition to having an impressive terminal result, it can be accurate to 75 yards, without hold-over.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I agree, bis. The author made a clear distinction between "psychological" vs "physical" stop. And yes it seems that there are a fair number of those psychological stops but the problem is, you don't get to choose the type of person attacking you. So the best option seems to still be what we all probably know: any decent-size caliber handgun works just fine, all other things being equal.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,465 Senior Member
    zeke4351 wrote: »
    I think the 10mm gets left out on purpose because if the results were used it would show that all calibers are not equal and the newbies are going to find out the truth.

    Look at the article link in the OP again. You can scroll down and nicely get the .357 magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, AND the .44 Magnum all on your screen at the same time. Look at the bottom line - percent actually incapacitated by one shot - and you'll see very little difference between them even when you start getting into "crew served" cartridges. When you look at this guy's data pool and compare it to the physics of what a 10mm is actually laying down, it's pretty easy to conclude you'd be unlikely to see much difference with that round also.

    I LIKE the 10mm, and was the first kid on my block to get a Glock 20 back around 1990, but it suffers from a few problems:

    1. Agencies don't want it because the Lowest Common Denominator can't shoot it.

    2. Never mind that penetration is a desirable asset in a defensive round - a lot of agency REMF types start nervously wringing their hands at the notion of a round that offers more than the barest amount necessary. Basically, they want a round that is able to turn corners, dodge around old ladies and baby strollers, liquefy a felon down to the point that is DNA is unraveled, and be stopped by a single sheet of wet toilet paper after exiting. My own opinion is that LE may be better off with truncated cone FMJ's that can deal with car doors, a certain amount of laminated glass, and odd-angle, cross body shots with arms in the way of the vitals, but for some reason, there's a lot of worry over the ONE well-aimed round that penetrates through a felon, and almost none over the statistically five to ten OTHER ROUNDS that missed the felon entirely and are now sailing down main street. Not saying it makes sense, but that warped mindset doesn't lend the 10mm many advantages.

    3. Designing the gun for the round is a bit of a problem. Glock was one of the first, and is still one of the few manufacturers to design their gun from the ground up as a 10mm launch platform, rather than tweak an existing .45 to suit. Being basically a magnum, the round requires substantial mass to contain and control the forces it generates. The bulk and weight required pretty much limits it to duty weapons and hard-to-conceal sporting arms.

    4. If you take the OP article link as pretty solid information, the 10mm won't gain you much in the defensive shooting arena except a hard kicking duty round that a lot of your troops can't shoot well, that cost more to feed EVEN BEFORE you consider you'll need to order more of it for the people that fail to qualify on the first go, that you can't piggyback into a commonly used, backup-sized gun (i.e. 2" and 4" .38's, or the baby Glock 9mm and .40)

    So all that paints the 10mm into a bit of a corner. Most of the guys who look at it as a hunting round will steer towards magnum revolvers, which are MORE powerful and less maintenance-intensive. I've always seen the 10mm as the perfect round for a semi-rural cop in places like Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Montana, Alaska, etc... who may face a grizzly bear one day and a drug dealer the next - but that situation isn't a widespread norm.

    As I say, I really like the Ten, but I've made my peace with the fact that it's not for everyone.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bowserbbowserb Member Posts: 277 Member
    A friend of mine is retired FBI. He was there when the 10mm was originally tried. He says yes, it was abandoned because too many of the female agents couldn't handle the recoil, and that was when the .40 cal. came about...as an emasculated 10mm.

    As to guns that shoot the 10mm, I don't remember who, but there is at least one company making a 1911 in 10mm. An all-steel handgun with a 5" barrel for 10mm makes sense in my mind.
    "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history." - Ayn Rand
  • Mike WeberMike Weber Member Posts: 91 Member
    As to guns that shoot the 10mm, I don't remember who, but there is at least one company making a 1911 in 10mm. An all-steel handgun with a 5" barrel for 10mm makes sense in my mind.
    That would be the Colt Delta Elite 10mm. I bought one of them when they first came out. Also bought a S&W 1006 shortly after buying the Colt. I like this chambering.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Rock Island Armory also make a 1911 in 10mm for about the same price as a G20.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,281 Senior Member
    I think the Bren Ten was the first offering in 10MM and was made famous in the TV
    series Miami Vice. Although I purchased a DE when they first came on the market,
    until recently I never understood the significance of the 10MM in the scheme of things.
    Personally I don't see much difference in recoil between 1911's in .45 & 10MM.
    Sense adding a 22 lb wolf recoil spring and buffer to the DE the recoil is much smother
    and the gun doesn't feel like it's beating the slide stop to death.If I ever run into a BG
    wearing a 56XL jacket, over penetration would not be my primary concern.
  • zeke4351zeke4351 Member Posts: 31 Member
    I think a lot of people have never seen or shot a full power 10mm load just as most don't know what a full power .357 Sig load is. I have a couple of 10mm guns and the 175 grain Winchester Silver Tip is not a full power load as some in other forums have said. I don't know of anyone killing a hog at 100yds with a 9mm or .40 much less a .45 but for 10 or 15 yds they will all work even the .22. I just bought the 10mm Witness Match and shoot Underwood full power loads in it.ase8e3ut.jpg
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    I do not buy the 10mm it hurts your wrist comment, I make no bones about not liking excessive recoil; but 10mm isn't too much.
    But, it is a factor of the gun used because relatively wimpy rnds can be a recoil burden such as .38spl +P in a small revolver.


    Ned, have I mentioned that Debbie has no issues with my .44 special load? We have a range at the ranch and she's fired quite a few of them out of the revolver and she loves shooting them out of my mod 94.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • topguntopgun Member Posts: 128 Member
    Bigslug wrote: »

    As I say, I really like the Ten, but I've made my peace with the fact that it's not for everyone.[/QUOTE]

    I think you nailed it Bigslug.
  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    I love the 10 mm cartridge and have two Colt Delta's, one compensated and this one that I shot in factory class in the 90's.
    It would be very comforting to have if the (things went bad) and it was stoked with full power loads. This gun is highly modified and has a
    Bar-Sto barrel, Bo-Mar adjustable sights and 30 lpi checkering.
    IMG_0160.jpg
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
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