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How would you handle this situation?

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  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    agewon wrote: »
    Another derail here;
    In this case if he were CC, what would have been the odds? Aside from getting a beating for running your mouth, this could have gone two ways. Either he pulled and the attackers backed off, or he pulled and used.
    Being that all he has to complain about is a busted lip, where does someone who is CC draw the line? Me, I'd be hard pressed to see anyone lay a finger on the wife, but in this case would pulling on two chumps be justified? I know hindsight is 20/20, but how do you guys lucky enough to have a CCP draw the line?

    Okay, good general question...

    We wiith a CHL don't always "know" when or where to draw the line, all of us being human and subject to error. Best we can do is hope that our errors aren't big ones.

    But we do know a lot more about armed self defense than most folks, simply because we (and I speak for the other CHL people here, who seem to all be pretty sensible) took classes and otherwise learned the law and how to react in armed situations. Some here are ex military or ex LEO and some are 100% civilian (like me) but in any case, we took the time and energy to have good instructors and also we read and studied the self defense laws, to play "mind games" to imagine our reaction in the face of an attack, and did whatever else we could to "arm" ourselves with knowledge as well as a weapon.

    We therefore (hopefully) know the difference between brandishing vs legitimate justified "display" of the weapon, whether to fire or not, and most important, how to avoid most situations where we might otherwise be drawn into a confrontation, or at least, to not contribute to the confrontation.

    Would pulling your weapon on two attackers be justified? Yes. Even with just one attacker. You are under NO obligation to endure a physical attack before you display that gun. But you'd be lots better off to have "clean hands" before they attacked so that you could show you didn't contribute to the dispute by yelling or flashing the finger.

    Incidentally, we're not "lucky" to have a CHL. We applied for one and got certified. You can do the same. C'mon in, the water's fine. Just deep.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Regarding "brandishing", the definition is essentially: displaying a firearm or other weapon in a threatening manner without sufficient justification.

    That about covers it. And of course the key phrase is "without sufficient justification".

    Which is something that any good armed self defense class will teach you, among the many crucial points of law and "smart" gun carry that are required by the CHL laws in most states.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,559 Senior Member
    From THIS scenario and THIS scenario alone........looking at the facts presented............we see that someone ran their mouth and someone else got popped in the mouth for it. Period......end of story.

    There are those here who think the offender should have been SHOT and KILLED for it?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,286 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    From THIS scenario and THIS scenario alone........looking at the facts presented............we see that someone ran their mouth and someone else got popped in the mouth for it. Period......end of story.

    There are those here who think the offender should have been SHOT and KILLED for it?

    Hindsight is 20/20, I don't think anyone here would have shot the people unless the punching continued after a gun was drawn, I think the OP is wondering if the act of drawing a gun in the middle of the altercation would be justified. I still don't get why the cops were not involved.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,559 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Hindsight is 20/20, I don't think anyone here would have shot the people unless the punching continued after a gun was drawn, I think the OP is wondering if the act of drawing a gun in the middle of the altercation would be justified. I still don't get why the cops were not involved.

    Chiro, what am I missing in the below quote?

    Originally Posted by 5280 shooter II
    "They got out of their car physically attacked you through the window while you were in your car......they earned the right to be shot in self-defense........................Personally they should've been shot for general dickorry.....but that's not allowed."

    That's not discussing drawing your gun, or not. That's saying they should have been SHOT! No? Or, did I misunderstand the point?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • fufufufu Member Posts: 36 Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Hindsight is 20/20, I don't think anyone here would have shot the people unless the punching continued after a gun was drawn, I think the OP is wondering if the act of drawing a gun in the middle of the altercation would be justified. I still don't get why the cops were not involved.

    If you were AD military, you'd understand the -pain involved with this scenario is far worse for me than a little cut on the lip. Trust me.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,887 Senior Member
    If reporting what happened would have gotten you in trouble, how much more trouble would it have been if you'd have pulled a gun and shot someone or if you'd have pulled a gun, they walked away, and then they called the cops and reported you threatening them with a firearm and you not reported it to the police?

    If you point your gun at someone BE THE FIRST TO CALL THE POLICE. If they call first you will be the instigator, not them.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    Biggest lesson learned here is DO NOT get in an altercation over something as dumb as somebody cutting in line. Carrying or not, is it really worth it to give somebody the bird because they made you one place further back in line? Nope. My wife gets mad at me all the time now when somebody pulls a bonehead move. "Doesn't that make you mad? What they did was wrong/stupid/dangerous." "Yes it hacks me off, but, it isn't worth shooting somebody over." As has been said, call the cops, if they are doing something illegal/hazardous, call the cops they get paid to deal with maroons.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    What kind of lace-panty military do we have these days? Apparently, people who can't deal out a well-deserved butt-kicking to someone who desperately needs it without wondering if an equalizer is necessary. Just the sort of guy I'd like to have watching my back when the stuff hits the fan on patrol!
    :roll:
    Jerry
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,286 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Chiro, what am I missing in the below quote?

    Originally Posted by 5280 shooter II
    "They got out of their car physically attacked you through the window while you were in your car......they earned the right to be shot in self-defense........................Personally they should've been shot for general dickorry.....but that's not allowed."That's not discussing drawing your gun, or not. That's saying they should have been SHOT! No? Or, did I misunderstand the point?

    Alright, you got me with this post and the general dickorry, but I am not sure what dickorry means, it is not in Websters 3rd College Ed. I still think he would hold up if they retreated.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    If you point your gun at someone BE THE FIRST TO CALL THE POLICE. If they call first you will be the instigator, not them.

    Absolutely correct, bream! In my incidents, I called the cops and reported the situation immediately. Hint: If I'd done something questionable, calling the cops might not have been a good idea, but, hey, I received lots of good self defense training and coupled with my own brain and what my Dad taught me, I've managed to avoid any questionable acts.

    For those new, I have never been in the military or a LEO or had any "gummint" gun training or licensing or carry permit. All my experience with firearms has been 100% civilian. But for some strange reason, I have been involved in about a half dozen near-shoot instances, some in which I actually "drew down" on the other person and threatened to shoot (as the incident I described in this thread).

    In my fairly sedate life (no LEO, no military, lifetime's worst charged offense a single stupid DWI in '82), I have on 4 separate occasions "protected" a woman who was being attacked, both the woman and attackers strangers to me, I was just there at the right (or wrong) time, once in KC, once El Paso, twice in Houston. Plus a couple other armed confrontations. I've never been, say, a drug dealer or user or outlaw biker or vigilante or militant on the prowl or anything else that might put me in harm's way, so I really cannot fathom why this has occurred to me, when as you know, there are lots of LEOs who've never drawn their firearm once.

    I've been very lucky in these situations, to not have been hurt or shot myself, and to not have needed to fire.** I've tried to offer a bit of my experience in this forum at various times, not because I think myself special or unique or mister gunguy, but precisely because I do NOT think I'm special. And therefore I can speak as a totally "regular" citizen like most of us, and perhaps say "it happened to me and it can happen to you" and to therefore be prepared.

    That preparation of course means to have sufficient firearm training to use a weapon if necessary, and all the mechanical and tactical knowledge required. But maybe more important, to have the preliminary training about legalities of a "shoot" and concealed carry and how to generally avoid such, if possible. Which is lots better than having to draw down or even maybe fire.

    (**Some of you also know that I did have one actual incident at age 22 involving a shooting, which I understandably decline to discuss but I did want to mention it in the interests of disclosure.)
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,887 Senior Member
    General Dickorry... he was a Cavalry hero of the Spanish-American war, right? Oh yes, here it is....

    General Ishmael Brunson Dickorry, aka "Old Iron Dick" was a decorated Army Cavalry Corps hero of the Spanish-American War. Known for his stern, inflexible demeanor, he was ramrod straight in posture and had a piercing gaze from his one eye, the other being lost during an unfortunate cock-fighting accident. Known for his volatile temper, he would angrily erupt, red-faced, screaming and spew great gobs of frothy spittle in the face of an unfortunate subordinate, leaving the man a quivering, pathetic mess.

    A brilliant tactician, he was known derisively as the "One-Eyed Wonder Boy" by his competitors. He favored deep penetrating attacks for his assaults with an sizeable force attacking the enemy's back door for a shocking attack. He also was a proponent of bayonet drills in case his troopers were dismounted, and known to advocate a repeated stabbing technique, advocating that his men stab their opponents deep and hard, not stopping until the bayonet is fully buried.

    He was most famous for his command at the Battle of Mons et Tetons. There he lead the initial cavalry charge with his trademark and anachronistic lance held rigidly in front of him, spearing many enemy both in the front as they stood to battle him and in the back as they ran away. Unhorsed by a nearby cannon explosion, he continued the battle on foot with sword and pistol in his hand. Surrounded at one time by 5 Cuban soldiers he screamed "I shall soon come at thee, and give thee my full essence! I shall quench my unholy blood-lust with thy bodies!" After the battle a line of moaning, weakened enemy were left in his wake.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,286 Senior Member
    General Dickorry... he was a Cavalry hero of the Spanish-American war, right? Oh yes, here it is....

    General Ishmael Brunson Dickorry, aka "Old Iron Dick" was a decorated Army Cavalry Corps hero of the Spanish-American War. Known for his stern, inflexible demeanor, he was ramrod straight in posture and had a piercing gaze from his one eye, the other being lost during an unfortunate cock-fighting accident. Known for his volatile temper, he would angrily erupt, red-faced, screaming and spew great gobs of frothy spittle in the face of an unfortunate subordinate, leaving the man a quivering, pathetic mess.

    A brilliant tactician, he was known derisively as the "One-Eyed Wonder Boy" by his competitors. He favored deep penetrating attacks for his assaults with an sizeable force attacking the enemy's back door for a shocking attack. He also was a proponent of bayonet drills in case his troopers were dismounted, and known to advocate a repeated stabbing technique, advocating that his men stab their opponents deep and hard, not stopping until the bayonet is fully buried.

    He was most famous for his command at the Battle of Mons et Tetons. There he lead the initial cavalry charge with his trademark and anachronistic lance held rigidly in front of him, spearing many enemy both in the front as they stood to battle him and in the back as they ran away. Unhorsed by a nearby cannon explosion, he continued the battle on foot with sword and pistol in his hand. Surrounded at one time by 5 Cuban soldiers he screamed "I shall soon come at thee, and give thee my full essence! I shall quench my unholy blood-lust with thy bodies!" After the battle a line of moaning, weakened enemy were left in his wake.

    I see the new parent sleep deprivation is kicking in, nicely done, thanks Bream:tooth:.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,559 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    :golfclap:

    :roll2:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    General Dickorry... he was a Cavalry hero of the Spanish-American war, right? Oh yes, here it is....
    etc etc.

    Wonderful! I especially liked the Mons et Tetons (which translates to English as the "Sweater Girl Mountains").
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,591 Senior Member
    I've been known to honk my horn at someone behaving stupidly behind the wheel, but I never shout out the window. That being said, I would not abide someone taking a swing at me through my window. They'd get a warning; what happens next is up to them. But just to be clear, I cannot imagine a situation where I get into a shouting match out the window, so when I say 'what happens next is up to them', it should be understood that it assumes a scenario where the other person is the aggressor, escalating the danger by exiting their vehicle in a threatening manner and ignoring a verbal warning.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Regardless of whatever was said or done before, the moment someone exits their vehicle and approaches the other person, THEY become the antagonist and are responsible for whatever happens thereafter IF the other person stays in their vehicle.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    Regardless of whatever was said or done before, the moment someone exits their vehicle and approaches the other person, THEY become the antagonist and are responsible for whatever happens thereafter IF the other person stays in their vehicle.

    Luis

    Agreed. It's just that, if a shooting or armed confrontation were to eventuate, I wouldn't want there to be any sidebar evidence that I'd escalated the incident, is all I'm saying.
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    It would seem to me, and I haven't been in anything near as hairy, that after sufficient provocation if you pull and firmly state the conditions under which you will use it this is helpful to establishing your condition red situation. Effectively you are saying to yourself as well as to the person applying for a lead mining claim these are my conditions to shoot.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Excellent suggestion, Dr, and it also provides any witnesses with a good way to offer you legal justification. "He warned the guy and the guy didn't listen."
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