Actual self defense stories for distances beyond "personal space"?

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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,252 Senior Member
    Funny thing about "averages" is that about 50% of the time, you'll be either under-trained or over-trained. If you look at "average distance of encounter" and only train for that, well, you're only training for what has happened 50% of the time. Also most encounters happen in low light, and with 3-5 rounds fired. How many practice firing just 3-5 rounds? Low light practice is good, granted.

    As to agewon's question, I always carry at least 1 reload. With a J-frame I only have 5 rounds. With my autoloaders, the most common cause of malfunction is a bad magazine. I use quality, proven mags but I figure if things go bad, they might get really bad. Having a firearm that won't work because of a bad mag is not acceptable.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,275 Senior Member
    Mass Ayoob did a piece a few years back about an Air Force Security Policeman that killed an active shooter at 70 yards with his M9....the guy was shooting up the base hospital.
    I'll see if I can find a link a bit later....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Mike WeberMike Weber Member Posts: 91 Member
    I believe that Ayoob was describing the incident which occurred at Fairchild Air Force Base outside of Spokane Washington on On 20 June 1994
    http://m.spokesman.com/galleries/2010/jun/17/looking-back-fairchild-shootings/
    I was living in Spokane at the time of this incident and also this incident occurred just two months prior to the vote on the Clinton AWB. This happened in the district of then Speaker of the House Tom Foley D Washington who was very influential in manipulating the vote to favor passage of the AWB.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,235 Senior Member
    Answering the OP, since I live on a farm I tend to shoot at things I find as interesting targets from handshake distance(mostly copperheads)to pine cones that I can barely see. Rocks sticking out of the bank across the creek at distances of 50 to 75 yards(approximate distance)are also fun to shoot at. That is with anything from .32 S&W Long to .44 Mag. How do you expect to hit things at distance if you don't practice at known and unknown distances? Just because you haven't needed to yet doesn't mean the time won't come when it's important.

    Real encounters. Meth head wrecked just past the house and tore his right front suspension loose, but he wasn't aware of that. I heard the wreck, went out to investigate with phone in left hand and 1911 in right back pocket. He asked me to pull him out of the ditch, and I pointed out the fact that his right front was sticking out way right and his left was pointing way left. I told him I'd call the sheriff's office and they could get a wrecker to tow it. He pulled a knife and stepped towards me, and said, "You ain't calling no cops", and I pulled the pistol and told him to drop the knife or I'd blow his :cuss: brains out. He dropped it, and I made him get face down on the ground. He was antsy to get out of there because of the meth lab and supplies in the trunk and back seat of the car. The deputy that came out was informed of what had happened, and he summarily cuffed and stuffed the guy in the back of the patrol car. Distance when knife was pulled on me was about 15 feet. He got an assault with a deadly weapon charge added to the list of offenses.

    I've also shot a truckload of dogs that made the mistake of thinking I was a possible chew toy. And dogs running the cattle; used both pistol, rifle, and shotgun at different times. Grab what's the handiest at the moment, grab some ammo to go with, and shoot until they leave or are reaching ambient temperature. As to ranges shot; way to close to around 100 yards, except with the pistols, and I closed the distance when I had to use a pistol. Actually I didn't have to close the distance most of the time. Once the cattle saw me, they would head my way. By the time the dogs noticed me it was way too late.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,275 Senior Member
    Thanks Mike...that's the one...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,720 Senior Member
    I practice from being able to touch the target with my free hand to 25 yards, but I also find it fun to pop 12'' balloons out to the 100 yard line.

    Because I don't go to a formal range we can do things that most can not, like blow up balloons and let then blow down a farm road then shoot them as they go. Or tie them to a remote control truck and try to hit them as they are coming at you, or crossing in front.

    As for extra rounds, I carry an extra mag for my main gun or if I'm carrying a revolver 2 speed strips. I also carry a BUG with an extra mag for it.(LC9)


    I've only been in one encounter outside of the military where my old GF had a sister who's BF had a gun while they were arguing in the driveway, I was on the front porch in the shadows with the front sight of a .357 Blackhawk centered on his chest, about 50 feet away.
    He was not aware that I was there and I never said a word, but I was glad when he got in his car and left.
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Your 5-6 little tizzies you're so proud of have narrowed your mind a little. Nobody will EVER convince me a handgun can't be used beyond 100 yards. When it's all ya got...........you use it. And it works.

    Y'know, pal, I didn't use rude language in the entry post to this thread nor did I disparage anyone who felt that longer distance SD shooting practice was better. But if you think I'm "proud" of my, ah, "tizzies" you've got your head in a dark location.

    I've talked about these incidents (a couple of them) because I'm NOT special, pal! Because it DID "happen to me" and I'm a 100% street-legal civilian with zero LEO or military hooks. I've tried to offer these TRUE stories as lessons to those who might be interested in real life encounters, not hypothetical. And how I was lucky to not have to shoot, but prepared to shoot I was. So I'll tell you one or two tizzies (keen word, maybe a New York phrase?)...

    I stopped a vicious attack on a poor street whore by two thugs who were kicking and stomping her for whatever reason, laughing about it. I brought my 1911 to the street, shined my Maglite at them, yelled that they quit. They stopped and the woman got up, badly bleeding, busted nose, broken ribs it turned out, her face cut and bashed. She ran toward me and literally hid behind me. The 2 guys walked over, came adjacent where I was standing but across the street, then stepped into the street toward me. At which point I drew down on them. They thankfully changed their minds and took off running and the cops arrived about 30 sec later.

    In El Paso one Sunday afternoon, my girlfriend and I were watching football and we heard crashing and female screaming. My gf called 911 and I grabbed my .357 and went to the door of our townhouse -- we lived on the 2nd floor -- and this woman, face bleeding and cut, ran toward me yelling for help. I could see she came from an adjacent building, the front door busted off its hinges and inside, male hollering and smashing glass and furniture and stuff. My gf called to the woman, come up here, you'll be safe, the cops are on their way. So the woman ran up the stairs and stood w. my gf. A moment later, this very angry guy stormed out of the woman's apt, looking for her, yelling all sorts of threat and obscenities. He spotted her and ran to the foot of the stairs, started up, and I drew down on him, yelled for him to stop or I'd shoot. He thankfully stopped, the cops rolled up asap and put him in cuffs. He was the woman's ex and she had a bond out on him already.

    What I did was what anybody here would likely do. I used my handgun to prevent some jerk or jerks from harming a stranger, someone I didn't know, but who needed help.

    This wasn't a tizzy. It was a real life near-shoot self defense scenario. And I mention it because it might serve as a lesson or helpful example as to how real life things can go down.

    I didn't insult you, Z, nor did I insult anyone else here in this or the other thread, those who believe that, say, 100yd self defense practice is a good idea. I simply disagreed with the concept, and I never tossed any insults of any kind to anyone, only disagreed with the strategy.

    So if you don't have any examples from personal experience or from good legit stories that are examples of the 100-yd concept, fine. Just lay off the insults or personal slurs. I asked for some good SD stories here and others have been helpful to offer them. If you've got your own stories, keen, let's hear 'em. But if you don't, just quibble off on this thread and start your own special "insult Sam" thread and wallow in it.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Varmint, Big, mississippi, others here who have offered some REAL feedback and some REAL incidents, thanks! I'm not too old nor hidebound to accept new info and to change my mind.

    I'll continue to think carefully about these items and I appreciate those of you who've taken this thread to heart and given me (and others) the stuff that matters. Smart alecks (except Buffy, whom we all love, bzzzz) can take a hike.

    On that topic...
    Traffic cop: "Sir, do you know how fast you were going back there?"
    Buffy: "But officer! My car was full of bees!"
    Cop (looking inside): "I don't see any."
    Buffy: "Well no, not now!"

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,002 Senior Member
    :popcorn:
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    agewon wrote: »
    Here's a question for you guys that CC; how much ammo do you have with you? Would this be a major consideration for engaging beyond reasonable distances?

    I've carried an extra magazine for my 1911 but not for my XD .45, since it is 13+1 and I figure, probably wrongly, that if I need more than 14 rounds of +P .45acp, I'm already outgunned.

    I'm not however certain that distance is a factor in how much ammo to carry. My general recommendation would be 1 spare mag, two if you have the means to do so concealed or maybe in your car/truck's center console, etc.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,002 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    I've carried an extra magazine for my 1911 but not for my XD .45, since it is 13+1 and I figure, probably wrongly, that if I need more than 14 rounds of +P .45acp, I'm already outgunned.

    I'm not however certain that distance is a factor in how much ammo to carry. My general recommendation would be 1 spare mag, two if you have the means to do so concealed or maybe in your car/truck's center console, etc.
    You just need the extra mag incase the first one fails.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 19,136 Senior Member
    Having shot NRA Hunter Silhouette when I was younger (with a 4" revolver), I can most assuredly tell you, that if you can regularly hit a target at 100 yards, hitting the exact same sized target at a closer range is INFINITELY easier.

    (And to the best of my knowledge, a person is the same size no matter how close, or far away to you they are)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,667 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Varmint, Big, mississippi, others here who have offered some REAL feedback and some REAL incidents, thanks! I'm not too old nor hidebound to accept new info and to change my mind.

    I'm not going to argue with someone that has had more bad guy encounters than Bill Jordan.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    etc
    I was in college living in a rental when someone decided to hook into a trailer. I came around the barn with a SKS, I guess they decided it wasnt worth it and left. Starting range was 400 yards, closest I got was about 40.
    etc

    Varmint, you hit on a good point here, one I'd like to carry forward a bit... and this has already been stated elsewhere so it's not my exclusive idea...

    Some of my thought process regarding not practicing at longer distances apparently comes from my personal experiences and my personal surroundings nowadays. That is, my being a city ant and not a country ant.

    It's just that I really won't be finding myself needing to protect the barn or tool shed or outbuildings, nor will I find myself in a place that's much likely to require a shooting distance more than, say, 40 feet. That's just the general situation from living in the city.

    It makes good sense, I think, to focus on whatever real life scenarios that may arise within your own environment, despite the validity for a different "sight picture" for others, those who live in a more rural setting.

    I'd never actually thought about this much specifically, but I have always (regarding self defense from threat) visualized an urban setting. Duh, that's where I live!

    Therefore, my "thought games" involve "home invasion of a lowly apartment dweller, ha ha", "carjack attempt at 2am driving home w. girlfriend from a club", "parking lot encounter by mugger", etc.

    So, since none of my "what might happen?" scenarios involve "defense of the outbuildings" or "being shot at by a long gun while hunting" (and YES these are REAL scenarios for others, those who live out of the central city), then it may logically follow that I really never envisioned any sort of longer range SD shoot for my own personal circumstances.

    So, for ME, only practicing at shorter distances seems quite reasonable, while for others, a longer distance setting is more valid.

    I do however see the validity of practicing for longer shoots and that giving me an "up" on being more stable for a closer shoot. That's totally valid and good. I simply squish in the scale of the "long vs short" distance and instead of 100yds vs 30 yds, for me it's 45 ft vs 15 ft.

    But major thanks for bringing this into my thought patterns, so I'll now be able to make a more clear judgment. Keen?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Time for a group hug :hug::group:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,275 Senior Member
    agewon wrote: »
    Here's a question for you guys that CC; how much ammo do you have with you? Would this be a major consideration for engaging beyond reasonable distances?

    Depends on what I'm carrying....if it's a single stack auto, I normally carry a pair of spares. When I carried a double stack, I carried one....the rationale behind carrying spares is actually based, not on the fact that I'm anticipating getting in a prolonged shoot out...It's because the single most common cause of malfunctions in an auto is the magazine...

    If I'm carrying a DA revolver, I carry a single HKS Speedloader, If it's an SA I keep a half-dozen rounds in my pocket....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    I said in the other thread that I wasn't posting anymore extended range stories and I won't, but I will comment on the other part. Basing your practice or training solely on what has happened to you in the past is close minded, at best.

    The one incident that I've been involved in that had the possibility of turning out badly, I was wearing nothing but my underwear, I was holding a 12 gauge M1 Super 90, and the two bad guys were standing about ten feet away. Now granted, given the infinite nature of the universe that situation could occur exactly the same tomorrow, but to strip down to my boxer briefs and run a shotgun at powder burn distance every time I go to the range would just make me a moron.

    That creates an intimidating picture in my minds-eye, Eli in nothing but his BVDs holding a 12 ga. I imagine they beat feet outta Dodge in a hurry. :yikes::yikes::guns::guns:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,275 Senior Member
    Sam, keeping an open mind about possible scenarios is pretty important....Did you read the article about the shooting at Fairchild? If not, please do so, You're out and about, see something going down that needs to be addressed, an innocent person(s) is going to die if something isn't done and you're the only one around. He's 70 yards away, are you going to take up a good position and open fire or are you going to close to 40 feet....That's the situation the officer faced....Is it unlikely that you will ever been in that situation? Yep! and that's exactly what that officer thought that morning.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 19,136 Senior Member
    Sam, if you're ALWAYS somewhere confined and things are smaller than 40', you ought to be good to go, HOWEVER, I'll be willing to bet a large sum of money that some, if not MOST stores/restaurants/bars/theaters you visit/frequent are a LOT larger than that.

    So the potential of NEEDING the ability to make a longer shot exists.
    Hell, it's further than 40 feet from sidewalk to sidewalk on most city streets IIRC
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,953 Senior Member
    Wasn't meaning to be insulting. Didn't call you names or anything. So, I used the word "tizzie" which is slang for "tight spot or situation". Sue me. My bad. Put it in my tab.

    I said that the little "tight situations" you so oft share had narrowed your view on things. Not sure how that's insulting.........but..........my bad.

    My personal experiences in these matters, I tend not to share on open forums. Just my choice.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Each of us has different personal abilities. My self-imposed max distance I'd attempt to shoot a handgun in a SD scenario is about 50 yards. That's about as far as my level of expertise with a carry-sized handgun would allow me to make pretty consistent hits on a man-sized target. Short-barreled pocket rocket- - - -maybe half that distance. I'm sure we have plenty of folks in this thread who can shoot the wings off a gnat at 200 yards with a S&W snubby .38- - - -legends in their own minds, IMHO. Consider the source! Taking personal shots at someone for expressing an opinion extends their range considerably- - - -a couple of thousand miles or more!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    OK, that does it..I want pics (posted on here) of Eli holding a scatter-gun wearing only BVDs, Zee in his Kilt with nutin else on holding one of his scoped rifles, cpj in his Spandex only and holding any gun and Buffy in his.......never mind.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,596 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »

    It makes good sense, I think, to focus on whatever real life scenarios that may arise within your own environment, despite the validity for a different "sight picture" for others, those who live in a more rural setting.

    I'd never actually thought about this much specifically, but I have always (regarding self defense from threat) visualized an urban setting. Duh, that's where I live!

    Therefore, my "thought games" involve "home invasion of a lowly apartment dweller, ha ha", "carjack attempt at 2am driving home w. girlfriend from a club", "parking lot encounter by mugger", etc.

    So, since none of my "what might happen?" scenarios involve "defense of the outbuildings" or "being shot at by a long gun while hunting" (and YES these are REAL scenarios for others, those who live out of the central city), then it may logically follow that I really never envisioned any sort of longer range SD shoot for my own personal circumstances.

    So, for ME, only practicing at shorter distances seems quite reasonable, while for others, a longer distance setting is more valid.

    I do however see the validity of practicing for longer shoots and that giving me an "up" on being more stable for a closer shoot. That's totally valid and good. I simply squish in the scale of the "long vs short" distance and instead of 100yds vs 30 yds, for me it's 45 ft vs 15 ft.

    But major thanks for bringing this into my thought patterns, so I'll now be able to make a more clear judgment. Keen?

    Take your #1 scenario. The guys across the street run away, 1/2 way down the block to retrieve shotguns to clean up a mess that they made. The distance is now 60+ yards and you are in your bunny slippers, they are running. If you hit one, you have gained time for you and the victim. If they duck and cover because you are REAL close to putting a hole in them, you have gained time.

    Is it something you should do ALL the time? Nope. But when ever you have the chance take a few at a lot longer than you think you will ever need. Put it this way, bring the 1911 put a sil target at 100, put the front sight on its head, and squeeze. Its fun and as long as you are good with windage, you will hit it.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,953 Senior Member
    Hey Sam, when you're over thinking I insulted you, which I didn't, I would like your comments on my OTHER post regarding the recent shootings.

    You know, my post you ignored because you were too busy being offended by my follow up post, for some reason.

    Would like to to hear your ideas regarding shooting an assailant down a hall, across a theater, or across the food court.

    Thanks.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,667 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »

    My personal experiences in these matters, I tend not to share on open forums. Just my choice.

    Funny how that works.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    You just need the extra mag incase the first one fails.

    Good idea, I hadn't thought of that. And while on the subject, only use either actual factory mags or top quality 3rd party mags. Lots of us here can attest that feed problems an so on can result from a badly manufactured magazine. One of the things that a beginner might overlook but in fact it's a common problem.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Time for a group hug :hug::group:

    Do I really have to hug cpj?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Wasn't meaning to be insulting. Didn't call you names or anything. So, I used the word "tizzie" which is slang for "tight spot or situation". Sue me. My bad. Put it in my tab.

    I said that the little "tight situations" you so oft share had narrowed your view on things. Not sure how that's insulting.........but..........my bad.

    My personal experiences in these matters, I tend not to share on open forums. Just my choice.

    Okay, considerations given to your explanations. I thought you were being catty, maybe you weren't. Done is done.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    OK, that does it..I want pics (posted on here) of Eli holding a scatter-gun wearing only BVDs, Zee in his Kilt with nutin else on holding one of his scoped rifles, cpj in his Spandex only and holding any gun and Buffy in his.......never mind.

    And this used to be a family forum. Oh, well...

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Would like to to hear your ideas regarding shooting an assailant down a hall, across a theater, or across the food court.

    Thanks.

    If I'm being assaulted at some distance, I'd probably want to shoot back. I'm just a bit doubtful that some punk will be trying to shot at ME from across, say, a theater ** rather than at someone closer.

    But of course, if attacked, I'd be impelled to fire back. However in a theater, the distance might still not be more than, oh, 50 feet, unless he was on one far side and I was on the other, and for some reason he decided to choose me.

    I'm not saying that self defense shooting can't occur at greater distances than 50 feet. It's just extremely unlikely to be such, unless of course the guy is a sniper ninja former Seal and Mossad hit man using a Barrett .50bmg. Could happen, and I'd be toast.

    Seriously, if a genuine sniper or dedicated mass killer type decides to unload on the area and I'm within range, I'm likely dead. Unless of course I had a nice AR with me (having come from the Starbucks where I needed to OC that long gun).

    (** Some enchanted evening, you will see a stranger, you will see a stranger, firing across a crowded room)

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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