Obama compares the Sons of Liberty and Paul Revere to the NSA

CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior MemberPosts: 4,624 Senior Member
Wow. You have got to be ing kidding me...

At the dawn of our Republic, a small, secret surveillance committee borne out of the “The Sons of Liberty” was established in Boston. The group’s members included Paul Revere, and at night they would patrol the streets, reporting back any signs that the British were preparing raids against America’s early Patriots.

Throughout American history, intelligence has helped secure our country and our freedoms.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/text-obamas-nsa-speech_774814.html?nopager=1
The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

Ayn Rand

Replies

  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    Unfortunately the mouth breathers who are more concerned with catching the next episode of real housewives will swallow that line completely. They never liked history class, thought it was unimportant, and had no application in their lives.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,336 Senior Member
    Could Edward Snowden be considered a Son of Liberty?
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,624 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Could Edward Snowden be considered a Son of Liberty?
    Jerry

    Yes. He hasn't betrayed the military and endangered people on the ground.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,104 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Yes. He hasn't betrayed the military and endangered people on the ground.
    Yeah, and I have not heard one shred of evidence that he is an actual traitor who has endangered lives, like congresscritter Peter King of New York, Senators John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina have been yapping about. SHOW ME THE DAMN MONEY, OR SHUT THE HELL UP!
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,957 Senior Member
    I have MANY persons and things Obama could be compared to; Hitler, Chairman Mao, Robert Mugabe, Yassir Arifat, Lenin, Stalin, a big festering elephant carcass riddled with maggots, a big festering petri dish full of genetically engineered bubonic plague, and on and on and on and on.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,104 Senior Member
    A pile of cowpies?
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,078 Senior Member
    A pile of cowpies?
    No, a pile of cowpies is actually useful...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,624 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    You're the HMFIC, currently.

    :spittingcoffee:

    For one brief moment, I saw another letter.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,624 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Yeah.

    Side note, my buddy caught a skunk yesterday. Said it wasn't much fun skinning it. He also lost a trap to either an otter or a beaver. Wasnt real amused, the otter is good money.

    You gotta tie the trap swivel to a tree with bailing wire. They can't chew through it. It is easier to tell if the trap was stolen versus an animal escape.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    (laughing) ...gee, I would have never expected Obama to say this. ...shocking.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    The clear fallacy in Obama's smoke and mirrors analogy is that the NSA is consistently intruding (read: soon to be infringing) on our rights whereas the Sons of Liberty and their allies were fighting the fight for LESS intrusion and infringement upon the birth given rights of all free men. Were they gathering intelligence? Yes. Were they gathering intelligence on both the English and the colonial citizens with ambiguous goals for the latter? Hell no.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,135 Senior Member
    I ought to be more offended by the NSA, but I'm not. I couldn't care less if the NSA gets a readout on the phone numbers I'm calling, which is what they're doing. The phone company has this information, so it's not like NO ONE is collecting data. You post of Facebook and/or probably this site, someone out there is mining data to send you unwanted emails based on your preferences.

    Confidentiality is a thing of the past in the computer age.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,624 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I ought to be more offended by the NSA, but I'm not. I couldn't care less if the NSA gets a readout on the phone numbers I'm calling, which is what they're doing. The phone company has this information, so it's not like NO ONE is collecting data. You post of Facebook and/or probably this site, someone out there is mining data to send you unwanted emails based on your preferences.

    Confidentiality is a thing of the past in the computer age.

    Amendment IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


    You should be offended by the Constitutional violation.

    ETA: The people mining your preferences to sell you products do not have the power to share your data with the FBI, DEA, or any other alphabet agency. If I did a google search "how to build an AR-15 suppressor" should I have to worry about the ATF kicking in my door simply because I was curious? This happened to a family after the Boston bombing. The cops asked them why their IP address seached for "pressure cooker bomb". The dad said "it was on the news and I was curious." The cops demanded entrance to the home, as if a web search was probable cause.

    The question they should've asked was "How did you know that I searched for ANYTHING?!?!"
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I ought to be more offended by the NSA, but I'm not. I couldn't care less if the NSA gets a readout on the phone numbers I'm calling, which is what they're doing. The phone company has this information, so it's not like NO ONE is collecting data. You post of Facebook and/or probably this site, someone out there is mining data to send you unwanted emails based on your preferences.

    Confidentiality is a thing of the past in the computer age.

    Exactly. I will further add that 99.9% of cry babies will continue their chest beating on an internet keyboard pushing more for the legalization of weed than taking the time to actually sit down and compose a letter with pen and paper and write their elected officials over the more pressing issues we're up against.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,135 Senior Member
    Having worked as a LEO for nigh-on thirty years, I'm fully aware of the 4th Amendment and all its import. All my professional life I've observed it with reverence, so I will brook no one telling me what I should be offended by.

    Collecting conversation is a violation, collection of information from a third party is not since you give up the right to confidentiality for convenience. It's not entirely a surrendering of privacy, requires a court order but not a subpoena to get this nearly public information. Think "Credit Scores." The three major companies have a record of just about all your purchases in life. The phone company has your records of who you called an how long. I'm not offended in the least bit. There enough ACLU lawyers to bring an illegal act before the Supremes.

    I'm not personally offended any more than I am by Equifax running my credit cards and selling the data (if they do) to a personal choices website. Sorry about that.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,624 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Collecting conversation is a violation, collection of information from a third party is not since you give up the right to confidentiality for convenience. It's not entirely a surrendering of privacy, requires a court order but not a subpoena to get this nearly public information. Think "Credit Scores." The three major companies have a record of just about all your purchases in life. The phone company has your records of who you called an how long. I'm not offended in the least bit. There enough ACLU lawyers to bring an illegal act before the Supremes.

    I'm not personally offended any more than I am by Equifax running my credit cards and selling the data (if they do) to a personal choices website. Sorry about that.

    But the NSA is NOT aquiring a court order or subpoena or warrant. They are simply spying on Americans.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,135 Senior Member
    Actually, they are getting a court order, it just not a public court. This is a result of the Patriot Act. NSA is not collecting content or even the caller's name, unless they see a pattern of foreign calls to known numbers of terrorists. VERY few Republicans who aren't running for president would deny NSA's practice, since they fear a terrorist attack that could have been stopped if the data could have been collected.

    Any time the ACLU is pushing something, it's a good idea to evaluate your stance on it.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,957 Senior Member
    Gene, you're wrong that they are only capturing names and phone numbers. They are also recording the calls. They have to have a separate court order (supposedly) to access the actual call content. That new NSA data storage facility in Utah has terrabyte storage to the nth power to store all that. That is what it was built for, and what it is doing. You're about 8 years behind on what they (NSA) are really doing.

    Edit to add:

    Here's an article on the Utah facility. They don't need that storage capacity or computing speed for storing names and phone numbers.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/07/01/seven-stats-to-know-about-nsas-utah-data-center-as-it-nears-completion/

    With any luck at all, the place will self destruct. We can only hope.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/10/07/the-nsas-hugely-expensive-utah-data-center-has-major-electrical-problems-and-basically-isnt-working/
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Gene, you're wrong that they are only capturing names and phone numbers. They are also recording the calls. They have to have a separate court order (supposedly) to access the actual call content. That new NSA data storage facility in Utah has terrabyte storage to the nth power to store all that. That is what it was built for, and what it is doing. You're about 8 years behind on what they (NSA) are really doing.

    I think what Gene is getting at is that the NSA is a mere drop in the hat compared to the 'private sector's' info gathering. What gets me is that many scream foul at the NSA but have no problem at all with the private sectors info gathering means such as what we look at, who we communicate with on the internet, phone, placing GPS in our vehicles, etc... Just like those who say there is no freedom of speech in the workplace, what difference does it make anymore whether we lose our freedoms on a federal/state level or the corporate level. The more we no longer take part in government and thumb our nose at our responsibility as citizens this will just continue to get worse. Kiss your freedoms goodbye.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,957 Senior Member
    I think what Gene is getting at is that the NSA is a mere drop in the hat compared to the 'private sector's' info gathering. What gets me is that many scream foul at the NSA but have no problem at all with the private sectors info gathering means such as what we look at, who we communicate with on the internet, phone, placing GPS in our vehicles, etc... Just like those who say there is no freedom of speech in the workplace, what difference does it make anymore whether we lose our freedoms on a federal/state level or the corporate level. The more we no longer take part in government and thumb our nose at our responsibility as citizens this will just continue to get worse. Kiss your freedoms goodbye.

    The phone companies have been storing names and numbers of caller and called for, like, for-ev-er! How the Hades do you think they bill their customers, otherwise? They DON'T record the content of the call; that's illegal without a warrant, unless you're Uncle Sugar via NSA.

    It would be pretty darned hard to have this forum if the contents were not stored on servers, don'tcha think?

    And tracking your purchasing and placing ads in your e-mail or as popups, or suggested products on websites has been going on since Al Gore invented the internet. And that data is for sale, and has been for a long time, to other marketers wanting your $$$. It's the electronic version of those catalogs that still come to your mailbox; they sold that purchasing data back BEFORE the internet.

    And I say a LOT less on the internet than I would to an FBI, NSA, ATF, et al agent in person, mainly because STRONG LANGUAGE is discouraged on this, and most other, forums. :tooth:

    BTW, I have a pretty good and growing file of form letters from my state reps and Congresscritters that are sent out by their mindless minions. They don't actually read them; their minions do, and send out the appropriate form letter. Unless you are face-to-face with your representative, they aren't really listening; most likely not even then. To them, you're just another mindless proletarian slaving for the State.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,624 Senior Member
    I think what Gene is getting at is that the NSA is a mere drop in the hat compared to the 'private sector's' info gathering. What gets me is that many scream foul at the NSA but have no problem at all with the private sectors info gathering means such as what we look at, who we communicate with on the internet, phone, placing GPS in our vehicles, etc... Just like those who say there is no freedom of speech in the workplace, what difference does it make anymore whether we lose our freedoms on a federal/state level or the corporate level. The more we no longer take part in government and thumb our nose at our responsibility as citizens this will just continue to get worse. Kiss your freedoms goodbye.

    The private sector doesn't have the power to kick in your door, kill your dogs, and point MP5s at your kids. THAT is the difference.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The private sector doesn't have the power to kick in your door, kill your dogs, and point MP5s at your kids. THAT is the difference.

    Actually there are many private sector security firms that abuse their "power" and take the role of the SS. What difference does it make if we lose our freedom on the federal or the 'private sector' level. Each year the government is contracting more and more private business to watch YOU, ME and everyone else. Just a matter of time till corporate America BECOMES the federal government. ...some would argue that it has already happened.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    The phone companies have been storing names and numbers of caller and called for, like, for-ev-er! How the Hades do you think they bill their customers, otherwise? They DON'T record the content of the call; that's illegal without a warrant, unless you're Uncle Sugar via NSA.


    Actually all calls are recorded without warrant. No. 1, "like an employer and the freedom of speech not applying" they can do whatever they want. No. 2, the calls are then released to courts after obtaining a warrant.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,135 Senior Member
    Illegally obtained information cannot be used to prosecute you. I think someone here is paranoid. Paranoia is the least attractive form of fear. No conversation without a court order (a warrant) is made, nor is anything BUT telephone numbers is kept. Any abuses should be reported, not assumed. Those who assume the worst, I think, reveal what THEY would do if they were put in positions of power.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    Unfortunately the mouth breathers who are more concerned with catching the next episode of real housewives will swallow that line completely. They never liked history class, thought it was unimportant, and had no application in their lives.

    :that:

    This is right on KSU Firefighter! I've been saying it for years. And then these bozos get the rest of their education off CBS, NBC, ABC, and CNN, all the Pinko Networks. Then they have the gaul to get pissed when you refer to them as "Low Information Voters."
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,624 Senior Member
    Actually there are many private sector security firms that abuse their "power" and take the role of the SS. What difference does it make if we lose our freedom on the federal or the 'private sector' level. Each year the government is contracting more and more private business to watch YOU, ME and everyone else. Just a matter of time till corporate America BECOMES the federal government. ...some would argue that it has already happened.

    Please give me an example of a private sector firm breaching someone's home. I'm not talking about detaining shoplifters in the mall...
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,624 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Illegally obtained information cannot be used to prosecute you. I think someone here is paranoid. Paranoia is the least attractive form of fear. No conversation without a court order (a warrant) is made, nor is anything BUT telephone numbers is kept. Any abuses should be reported, not assumed. Those who assume the worst, I think, reveal what THEY would do if they were put in positions of power.

    Gotta dig the ad hominem attack.

    What really concerns me is that you believe what the NSA says after they were found to be lying. Before Snowden came out, the NSA said that weren't doing anything at all with domestic phone calls. Were they lying then, or now?

    Back to you being wrong.

    Herring v. United States, 555 U.S. 135 (2009), was a case decided by the Supreme Court of the United States on January 14, 2009. The court, decided that the good-faith exception to the exclusionary rule applies when a police officer makes an arrest based on an outstanding warrant in another jurisdiction, and the information is later found to be incorrect because of a negligent error by that agency.

    In other words, if they kick in your door for a warrant of X they can arrest you for Y.

    If you want I can post many examples of cops kicking in the wrong door and arresting people in homes that weren't on the warrant. You know, that whole "plain view" excuse the cops like to use.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Please give me an example of a private sector firm breaching someone's home. I'm not talking about detaining shoplifters in the mall...

    In many cases it was a private sector firm that initially provided the intel that led to the unlawful entry of a citizens home in the first place. I'm with you that the NSA as well as other gestapo agencies are blatantly violating the Fourth. Where I differ is it's not just limited to the fed or state goons. The destruction of our Tenets comes from many fronts... not to even mention the private sector's development of "chipping", retina scan technology, DNA, cameras being placed in the workplace; not to watch a perimeter, but to watch their own workers under the banner of a so called "safe work environment". Everywhere you go, atm purchases, fueling your truck, driving down the fwy, shopping, intersections and on and on -- rest assured that Big Brother is watching you.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
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