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JSP vs HP

NNNN Senior MemberPosts: 25,159 Senior Member
I think we as a group have been taken by the idea HP ammo is better for SD applications.
Considering cost, HP SD ammo is much more expensive than JSP ammo; and is HP better at transferring
energy to a tgt and thus better terminal performance? I think no, and that JSP is actually better and it is cheaper,
and comes is 50 rnd boxes for less that 20 HP rnds.

Replies

  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,577 Senior Member
    From a structural standpoint, a fully jacketed HP bullet withstands the forces exerted on some of the faster calibers. And terminally, I believe they'd be less likely to come apart and may retain their weight better.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Me being the cynic that I am, my take on it is as such....

    If a JSP fails, a hunter writes the ammo company griping about his missed game animal, the ammo company says "aww shucks, sorry 'bout that, here's a free box of ammo". If a "defensive HP" fails, a dead LEO's family member hires a lawyer and the ammo company says "aww shucks, sorry 'bout that, here's ten million dollars."

    I trust my life to factory ammo, that the factory EXPECTS people to trust their lives to.
    Just my $0.02 :beer:
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,161 Senior Member
    I've used enough JSPs in my life and killed enough stuff (including putting down sick cattle) with them not to even think twice about using them in a self defense situation...most particularly in a large bore revolver...as a matter of fact, that's exactly what's in my .45 Colt house gun...then there is the concept of shooting until they think they're dead...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,465 Senior Member
    I have no reason to REJECT good JHP's - they perform the desired task, have been tested against pretty stringent standards, fit into legal defense strategies, etc..., etc..., etc.

    But really, I am TOTALLY fine with stuff that guys like Elmer Keith and Phil Sharpe were cooking up 80+ years ago - that is to say, cast solids with large, flat, frontal areas - and tend to think that while they may not give the final 0.2" inches of final expanded diameter that the modern JHP will, they still manage to disrupt a lot of tissue and penetrate better to boot.

    There isn't anything magic going on here guys; it's a lump of lead - sometimes with copper - of a size and velocity dictated by the confines of the firearm it is launched from. Aside from excluding things like round noses that are extremely poor deliverers of energy, I don't see that the modern JHP has any huge performance advantage over a well-designed SWC. In some areas, it's even wanting in comparison.

    The good news is that since the 1986 Miami shootout which launched modern wound ballistics theory, there's been a lot of good science applied to what makes a defensive bullet work well, and the typical JHP duty round pretty much does. Thing is, a lot of that modern wound ballistics theory validates what the old guys understood a century ago - penetration first, diameter second, and a wide flat nose (either by static design or expansion) tears up more tissue than a pointy or round one. The new stuff simply comes with a marketing department who's job it is convince you that THEIR ammo is a mini neutron bomb that will go around corners, dodge baby carriages, liquefy the DNA of the felon it strikes through benefit of GPS guidance, AND be stopped by a sheet of wet toilet paper placed behind him.

    Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of valid reasons to use the stuff, but after years of looking at this stuff, I'm not convinced that performance is one of them.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,159 Senior Member
    Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of valid reasons to use the stuff, but after years of looking at this stuff, I'm not convinced that performance is one of them.
    That's it, I'm gonna just use stuff, any stuff I can stuff in the gun, esp with the 100 gr .327 JSP stuff.

    Good stuffing everyone. :uhm:

    :wink:
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,465 Senior Member
    Some days I'm eloquent, some days I'm sleep deprived. I strive to be entertaining at either level.:drool:

    I'm not so hidebound as to believe that there have been NO improvements since the Mauser 98, 1911, S&W N-frame, and Keith semi-wadcutter, but OTOH, I do not feel that every one of those more recent milestones have necessarily been as as far-reaching as their proponents claim. Even the legitimate advances often get some snake oil added to the sales pitch: if somebody has a for-real cure for cancer, you can bet it will get marketed as being good for acne, hair loss, and impotence too. Bullet design is probably one of the areas most affected by this for the simple reason that one manufacturer needs to make their product seem more appealing than that of the next - when in reality they are limited by the same constraints of diameter, weight, velocity, pressure, materials, and anatomy of intended target as everyone else.

    There is precious little that's new under the sun in the firearms field. If anyone tells me they have something that is, my default setting is to wager they're holding an enema bag that's filled with sunshine and tobacco smoke.

    (Better, NN? :wink:)
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    There is precious little that's new under the sun in the firearms field. If anyone tells me they have something that is, my default setting is to wager they're holding an enema bag that's filled with sunshine and tobacco smoke.

    (Better, NN? :wink:)

    You don't like feeling like a chimney?
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,159 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    .

    (Better, NN? :wink:)
    Actually no, I understood the stuffing stuff in stuff much better.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,159 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    I have some Winchester 240 gr .429 bullets, I have both JHP and JSP, While I haven't bothered testing them in wet newsprint, what I EXPECT to happen is the JSP to penetrate a little more before it opens up.

    I might just have to load one of each and see, once it warms up enough that I don't have to worry about my container of wet newspaper freezing, if I am correct.
    It will depend on the bullet construction, I have .44 spl HP ammo and some opens fast and some from a different source is useless as an HP. The .44 mag HP is gonna penetrate
    same as JSP.

    I wasn't thinking about such large bullets when I started this thread.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,465 Senior Member
    You don't like feeling like a chimney?

    It's not the smoke so much as having to smear SPF-30 on my backside - it starts to chafe after a while.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Between JSP and HP, the obvious choice is...whichever is on sale.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    I have no reason to REJECT good JHP's - they perform the desired task, have been tested against pretty stringent standards, fit into legal defense strategies, etc..., etc..., etc.

    But really, I am TOTALLY fine with stuff that guys like Elmer Keith and Phil Sharpe were cooking up 80+ years ago - that is to say, cast solids with large, flat, frontal areas - and tend to think that while they may not give the final 0.2" inches of final expanded diameter that the modern JHP will, they still manage to disrupt a lot of tissue and penetrate better to boot.

    Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of valid reasons to use the stuff, but after years of looking at this stuff, I'm not convinced that performance is one of them.

    I'm kinda in this camp. I have never shot a person and hopefully never will but I've read enough to know that humans are soft and have wimpy nervous systems compared to most game animals. I have on the other hand shot quite a few game animals with large cast bullets at moderate velocities. I figure that if a cast bullet with a large meplat can punch through any amount of bone and still create a sizable wound channel and humanly take a game animal, a similar bullet should be able to bore through any amount of clothing and provide similar results.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    I think it depends on the bullet construction and speed it travels. JHP are used in higher powered ( faster ) rounds because they limit the through and throughs caused by some FMJ's and some SP's. 10mm, 9mm and .40 and .357 come to mind as needing HP's to limit unintentional damage caused by bullets exiting. I believe if they are used as hunting rounds SP's would be better that JHP's

    Meanwhile slower rounds that do not over penetrate benefit from JSP's. I have some Spanish .380's that penetrate well and expand well in SP.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,918 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    I'm kinda in this camp. I have never shot a person and hopefully never will but I've read enough to know that humans are soft and have wimpy nervous systems compared to most game animals. I have on the other hand shot quite a few game animals with large cast bullets at moderate velocities. I figure that if a cast bullet with a large meplat can punch through any amount of bone and still create a sizable wound channel and humanly take a game animal, a similar bullet should be able to bore through any amount of clothing and provide similar results.
    Not sure if it's because our nervous systems are wimpier than a game animal's, or because we (as a species) have been conditioned to think "Oh goodness! I've been shot! I MIGHT DIE!!!"

    Animals on the other hand probably go, "Pain! Run!!!" Not that animals think but, well, you know....

    That could be why a heart-shot deer can run quite a ways while a guy who's been shot in the arm or leg will give up. Or keep on fighting, it depends on mindset, but hopefully you get the picture...
    I'm just here for snark.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Between JSP and HP, the obvious choice is...whichever is on sale.

    Kinda my line of thinking. If it's in a caliber of .40+, it really doesn't matter IMO.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Not to be a smart .. _ _ _ ... here or anything, and I will say that Bigslug IMHO is a working expert in all of this, however, does anyone else here have facts about actual shootings they have seen ? or is it just anecdotal ? on May 2013 some Winchester 115 grain FMJ 9mm round, an abysmal performer did it's job all too well.
    Undetermined administrative leave.....:tissue: On the bright side the guy was a real douche bag..... on the down side, he was after all the honchos future son in law.....
    Cheap stuff......

    I want good performance stuff, and I am willing to pay $25 for 25, if I have to, but what if I don't have to ?

    What if the cheap crap works well too ? facts ?????

    I have seen enough guys on the slab at the morgue deceased from cheap crappy non expanding lead ball ammo as well as the pricey JHP stuff, what gives ???????

    Edited to add: 1986 might as well be 1896 when it comes to ammo performance, so My question is this, if in 2013, 115 grain FMJ 9mm Winchester white box el cheapo ammo droped a guy DRT, and did in cases say circa 1997, Douchebags also DRT, can anyone tell Me if the pricey $25 for 25 rounds is that much better ? or is it hype ?

    Personally, I like heavier bullets and better expansion, hence why I like longer barrel lengths and +P 9mm out of a Glock 17 for instance 17 rounds etc......

    Or is lighter and faster better ? is pricey better ? cheap ? ARRRGGGHHHHHH My head hurts !!!!! :angry:
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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