Pot vs gun buyers

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Replies

  • DurangoKidDurangoKid Member Posts: 183 Member
    I expect if you are found with a firearm and you are under the influence of Marijuana you are going to be in trouble. I expect your right to ever own a firearm could end.
    Chris Williams in Montana was sentenced to 80 years for having a shotgun while selling medical Marijuana. It was reduced to 5 years in 2012. The BATF has made it clear they will enforce the firearms laws.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I am good to go until hamburgers are a controlled substance......
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • RimfireRimfire Senior Member Posts: 807 Senior Member
    You sure seem to know a lot about this drug. Something you need to share? :tooth:


    Uh no. Some things aren't meant to be shared.
    G&A Forum Member since: October 2000; Life Member: GOA, IWLA, NRA, & Escapees.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    Read what again?

    Read the definition of controlled substance. It does not depend on made up on the spot definitions. It really is black and white. You smoke pot, you cant buy a firearm legally.

    Where did I say pot wasn't classified as a controlled substance?

    Speaking of black and white..."the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    Your argument is flawed. The act of asking the feds permission to buy a gun is illegal per the 2A. That should be your argument. Not that you willfully support an infringement of the 2A, because of your disdain for adults that smoke pot.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,664 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »

    Speaking of black and white..."the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    Your argument is flawed. The act of asking the feds permission to buy a gun is illegal per the 2A. That should be your argument. Not that you willfully support an infringement of the 2A,.


    Do you not ask permission when you get a CCP?
    Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • PFDPFD Senior Member Posts: 1,202 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Do you not ask permission when you get a CCP?

    Careful now, Dick Metcalf was fired for asking such questions.
    That's all I got.

    Paul
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,664 Senior Member
    PFD wrote: »
    Careful now, Dick Metcalf was fired for asking such questions.

    I.do believe he was in support of this. I am not, just asking a question.

    Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,552 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Where did I say pot wasn't classified as a controlled substance?

    Speaking of black and white..."the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    Your argument is flawed. The act of asking the feds permission to buy a gun is illegal per the 2A. That should be your argument. Not that you willfully support an infringement of the 2A, because of your disdain for adults that smoke pot.
    I agree it is a infringment, yet here in Realworldville, you fill out a 4473 or dont get a firearm. Binary outcome.

    FYI, I don't need a lecture on the 2A from a Johnny come lately. Its people like you who are opening the door to the feds to crack down because you selfishly want to get high and didnt pay attention to the consequences. I have disdain for anyone who uses mind altering substances then claims that there is no affect, and no I dont care if you choose to die with a needle in your arm. I can and will step over you on the street. I also dont think that I owe you welfare because by using pot you will become unemployable in most decent paying fields. Cant eat because you choose to use, then die. Your choice, I am as libertarian as it gets when it comes to drugs.

    You brought up booze and tobacco, neither of which are controlled substances which makes your argument vapid. Here it is again in all of its .... whatever..
    11 e. Are you an unlawfull user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

    Read that again. It is not only about illegal drugs. Any depressant or stimulant? What is nicotine considered? Booze?

    It also depends on your definition of "addicted to"? Ever see the government's definition of alcoholic?

    My point, which you are not grasping, is that by making pot legal in a state, are you opening up the feds to take away existing firearms using the CURRENT laws. Your opinion that pot is great just doesnt matter.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,552 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Per your link, this opens up MORE questions. It states that any user of a controlled substance OTHER THAN one who has been prescribed by a licensed physician is not eligible. Pot is prescribed by doctors, and at the same time is....illegal under Federal law.
    I foresee a whole buncha lawyerin' going on in the future.
    I don't think it opens up more questions. All prescribed drugs are controlled substances and you cannot use them unless you have a script.

    CO is not requiring scripts for pot, it is recreational use. If you are a recreational drug user, does the fed have a case, under current law, to take your firearms because you cannot honestly fill out a 4473 to buy a firearm?
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,552 Senior Member
    Rimfire wrote: »
    The ambiguous term there is unlawful. Unlawful at Local, State, or Federal level?

    Tangential Example: Just because someone was prescribed Effexor (an anti-depressant) doesn't make them ineligible to purchase a firearm. Yes, it is a controlled substance, but they are a lawful user. BTW, Effexor is also prescribed for some case of Erectile Dysfunction/Pre-mature Ejaculation.

    Non ambiguous. Fed form, Fed rules.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Do you not ask permission when you get a CCP?

    I had a Utah permit once upon a time. Now I don't have a permit.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    You brought up booze and tobacco, neither of which are controlled substances which makes your argument vapid. Here it is again in all of its .... whatever..

    My point, which you are not grasping, is that by making pot legal in a state, are you opening up the feds to take away existing firearms using the CURRENT laws. Your opinion that pot is great just doesnt matter.

    I'll ignore the ad hominem attacks.

    I am not defending pot in regards to 11 e. We actually agree. I'm trying to explain that the feds go further with 11 e, than you think.

    My point, which you refuse to grasp, is 11 e mentions addiction to substances. not only controlled substances.

    11 e. Are you an unlawfull user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

    See that? It says OR ANY DEPRESSANT, STIMULANT...It doesn't say any CONTROLLED depressant...It says ANY...

    If you are an alcoholic. you will perjure yourself answering NO. Same if you are addicted to legally prescribed pain meds. The word is ADDICTED.

    The question you must ask is how the government defines addiction.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    pjames777 wrote: »
    It can take chronic users more than 30 days to start withdrawls from the dope store in their fat cells`1

    And hair follicles retain the drug residue tags even longer, 6 months or so, I think.

    Long time ago when I took the necessary tests for TS clearance, urinalysis was mandatory and the questions asked pertained to "controlled substance use in the past 90 days" as I remember. So they didn't worry a lot if you'd ever smoked pot (that question was on the test) but whether you were an active user. They figured that maybe 75% of young people had tried pot, the other 25% were lying. ha ha

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    This brings up a more common question... Is recreational pot use more or less the same as recreational alcohol use? Is one of them more dangerous than the other?

    Drunk driving notwithstanding (LOVE the joke about the stop sign!), if the average adult drinks alcohol occasionally for fun, and doesn't overindulge, is the same level of pot use equivalent?

    I think, yes. I've got no real objections to recreational pot smoking by adults. Overindulgence of any drug can be hard on you (as is overeating) but we really don't pay that much of a price with pot smokers as with drunks, no matter how high the smoker gets. Of course, psychs and other mentally unstable people can become deranged with pot but that's not the general issue.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    It is a moot point with Me, legal or not, I lose My reserve LEO status if I smoke rope..... not My bag really... whiskey and I get to keep My creds etc....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Every now and then I buy a bottle of Port wine, it lasts 2 or 3 weeks, I drink a small glass after dinner.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    It is a moot point with Me, legal or not, I lose My reserve LEO status if I smoke rope..... not My bag really... whiskey and I get to keep My creds etc....


    Well then , you are no 'Rope A Dope' :tooth:

    This may lead to some kinda revisions on the form in the future. Now it's a 'Catch 22' for some folks, I reckon.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,768 Senior Member
    DurangoKid wrote: »
    Colorado allows ATMs to be placed in Marijuana Stores. Colorado has banned ATMs in any place that sells guns or ammunition. It does seem the Marijuana people are anti-gun leftest.

    They have ATM's at Wal-Mart though, which sells both guns and ammo
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,768 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Two words: Private sales.

    Illegal in CO without a 4473 as of July 1, 2013
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,768 Senior Member
    It is correct that weed is still Federally controlled, and illegal, and the 4473 is a Fed form. I've denied several people at work because they answered yes. And I've said the same thing when they look at me in amazement "but its legal here?!". And company policy hasn't changed at all on the subject....you smell like pot, or are obviously stoned, you aren't getting your gun tonight. Same if you stink of booze.


    As for the job pre-screens, CO is a right-to-work state with pro-company laws. Legal or not they can require it, and deny you a job or fire you for use of a legal substance. Heck in a R-T-W they don't have to give reason for letting you go or any notice.
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,026 Senior Member
    They have ATM's at Wal-Mart though, which sells both guns and ammo

    MileHigh, I guess Colorado politicians are smart enough to excuse the giant Wal-Mart from any such restrictions. The small Mom & Pop guns stores are an easy target. How can a state like Colorado, with all the gun owners & hunters that reside there be completely taken over by Gun-Grabbing Democrats? All I can figure is that the Democrats vote and Republicans and Libertarians...not so much. What do you think?
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,552 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    I'll ignore the ad hominem attacks.

    I am not defending pot in regards to 11 e. We actually agree. I'm trying to explain that the feds go further with 11 e, than you think.

    My point, which you refuse to grasp, is 11 e mentions addiction to substances. not only controlled substances.

    11 e. Are you an unlawfull user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

    See that? It says OR ANY DEPRESSANT, STIMULANT...It doesn't say any CONTROLLED depressant...It says ANY...

    If you are an alcoholic. you will perjure yourself answering NO. Same if you are addicted to legally prescribed pain meds. The word is ADDICTED.

    The question you must ask is how the government defines addiction.

    Cali, We are not in disagreement that if you have a bro in law DR. who writes you a script for oxycodone that you are perjuring yourself if you say no on a 4473. Oxy IS a controlled subsance. You are also correct that the definition for alchoholic is incredibly stupid, however alcohol is NOT a controlled substance.
    The term does not include distilled spirits, wine, malt beverages, or tobacco, as those terms are defined or used in Subtitle E of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended.
    The "any other" ties the former to controlled substances, which by ATF's definition, is not booze. Just like the 2A, you have to take the whole of the statement, or like the presence of "shall" in a contract or law, the term has meaning. Because there is a comma in the 2A, doesn not mean that the thought is broken in half.

    Addiction and booze have nothing to do with the question though. Before it says addiction, it says unlawful USER of. CO has unlawful USER's of pot, which is a controlled substance [per ATF leagal definition] and NOT a legal substance per the FED.

    The question is, again, is legalizing pot at the state level, opening the door for gun confiscation by the feds?

    As to ad hominum attacks, "Not that you willfully support an infringement of the 2A, because of your disdain for adults that smoke pot. " I take offense to that and in person, my reply would have been worded more strongly. You are attacking me saying that I support an infringement of the 2A and I have been doing my part since you had to use a pen to contact your legislator. I have disdain for anyone who does stupid and expects everyone to change for them when it is pretty much spelled out, if you put any thought into it, that things not directly related to the stupid going on can adversly affect others. Thats my Libertarian bent, your rights stop where mine begin. The pot heads are making a opening, the antis WILL try to exploit it. If the stupid crosses the state lines, then it can affect me and possibly if it doesnt cross.

    As it is, I see nothing but good for me and mine with states legalizing unless the unintended consequenses let the anti's get more of a beachhead or some goody two shows wants my taxes to go to rehab. Pot leagalzation cuts a bunch of people out of the workforce for the good jobs and makes non users more valuable which is nothing but good for me. At least in theory, the pot taxes will keep up with the extra spending for a while. I dont ever recall where a funding source was ever not outspent though, so time will tell.

    With a perfect reading of the 2A, your avg. Joe from 16-43 would be able to have any weapon that a standared infantry squad would carry because those would be milita weapons. Including Squad autos. and light anti armor stuff. That aint happining no matter how much anyone wishes to rail against the system. We are stuck with what we have and putting on rose covered glasses and dropping seeds doesnt mean you have a garden, it means you cant see well and you get rats.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,930 Senior Member
    Wait, I wasn't aware of any federal law against Marijuana. Is it a controlled substance federally? And if it is, then the laws the states passed to make it legal are unconstitutional.

    I was thinking Opiates were controlled but not Pot. Anyway, I wish I had access to legal books like I did when I was in school on line.

    I don't know where I had my head. Asleep at the wheel.But I didn't realize thatMarijuana was on the same level of control as Opiates and controlled by the feds. I really never gave this stuff any thought. I knew it was illegal here but I didn't realize it was that much of a threat. I'm no pot head and surely not a liberal, but I think this is overkill. There's some bad drugs out there that will kill you quick and need controlling, but Pot ain't one of em. Yeah, heavy use may make you a Zombie after many years, but so will alcohol. But Heroin, Cocaine and some others will not only break your piggy bank, they'll also ruin your mind in record time and also kill you very acutely. Nope, I am conservative as the next guy here, but I just believe we have more important evils to pursue with our money. I think many conservatives are on the wrong side of this issue.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Well, i reckon y'all don't need to be taking any "Pot Shots" :guns: if you indulge is some Queen (Mary) Jane :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    The question is, again, is legalizing pot at the state level, opening the door for gun confiscation by the feds?

    What doesn't open the door for the gun confiscation? Weed, PTSD, accusations of domestic violence (not actual violence), (depending on locale) empty shotgun shells, possesion of 30 round magazines, EBRs, drunk driving, electric bill too high, restraining order subject, any felony conviction, any misdemeanor DV conviction (slapping a roommate), buying Sudafed twice in one month, and anyone that could be spending more than a year in jail (not actually spending). Thanks to Obamacare they will know who has scripts for all actual the controlled substances.

    Despite our disagreement on how 11 e is interpretted, the Feds will interpret it MY way, even though you may be correct.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,930 Senior Member
    The way it was described in wikki is that this is somewhat of an experimentation for the states to see if they can control things and keep it under control. If not, it sounds like it could all go away like Cinderella's Carriage.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,768 Senior Member
    MileHigh, I guess Colorado politicians are smart enough to excuse the giant Wal-Mart from any such restrictions. The small Mom & Pop guns stores are an easy target. How can a state like Colorado, with all the gun owners & hunters that reside there be completely taken over by Gun-Grabbing Democrats? All I can figure is that the Democrats vote and Republicans and Libertarians...not so much. What do you think?

    HUGE influx of "Coasters" in the last ten years, the Denver Metro area has grown considerably from implants. They bring their values and votes with them. This includes many of the elected officials too.

    We do have a decently large Libertarian movement here, and they vote. The Republicans vote too. The problem is those two parties, who are both usually against progressive libs, end up cancelling each other out and giving a majority vote to the leftists. The hag who stepped down last year instead of facing her recall, BARELY won her seat, because about 8% of the votes went Libertarian and not Republican. Had a few Libertarians went with the conservative vote Hudak would have never set foot in office and some of these laws might never have seen the light of day.
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,026 Senior Member
    HUGE influx of "Coasters" in the last ten years, the Denver Metro area has grown considerably from implants. They bring their values and votes with them. This includes many of the elected officials too.

    We do have a decently large Libertarian movement here, and they vote. The Republicans vote too. The problem is those two parties, who are both usually against progressive libs, end up cancelling each other out and giving a majority vote to the leftists. The hag who stepped down last year instead of facing her recall, BARELY won her seat, because about 8% of the votes went Libertarian and not Republican. Had a few Libertarians went with the conservative vote Hudak would have never set foot in office and some of these laws might never have seen the light of day.

    That's what I suspected. The area around Buffalo, Wyoming has a large influx from California. That's what I hear from friends there. I guess the first thing they do after buying their 5 acre "Ranch" is put up the NO trespassing signs.
  • DurangoKidDurangoKid Member Posts: 183 Member
    Milehighshooter great post. Here in Ole Wyoming the California leftest have taken over Teton County. We here in the "Cowboy" state have renamed Jackson Hole, Wyo. We now call it "Moscow on the Snake River".
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    Re: Form 4473. How about I come at this sideways? The form says "addicted to any controlled substance". Let that sink in a bit.

    We are ALL addicted to food, and the FDA controls the food supply in one way or another; therefore we are all addicted to substances controlled by a Federal agency.

    Did you know that Jimson Weed is also controlled by Federal Law as an hallucinogen?
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



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