Which one??

2

Replies

  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member

    That is what I thought as well. I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but this one only shows up once or twice a year.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,502 Senior Member
    Jay, love your choice of the .44 Bulldog. I want to try one out someday.

    If you get to Central FLA. I'd be happy to take you to our range and let ya have some fun with it.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Great choice ! I want to get another one day.

    Probably the 2 1/2 inch barrel as a "get offa me" pocket gun.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    jaywapti wrote: »
    If you get to Central FLA. I'd be happy to take you to our range and let ya have some fun with it.

    JAY

    Thanks!
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Even with lighter so called Cowboy loads, the .44 special is a prime candidate for "Home Defense" ugh, how I hate that term, It does the job without beating up the shooter as much as a .357 magnum does.

    If you can find one with a 4-5 inch barrel even better.

    Ditto!
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Crap, I really want one of those revolvers now..... It is perfect for Me.......
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • AiredaleAiredale Banned Posts: 624 Senior Member
    Sorry, but accuracy and control are hardly prerequisites in a situation where the maximum range is twenty feet.
    At that range, hitting the target with multiple projectiles is the most important.
    You better see your eye doctor about your (limited?) vision.
    :worthy::worthy::worthy:
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    Airedale wrote: »
    Sorry, but accuracy and control are hardly prerequisites in a situation where the maximum range is twenty feet.
    At that range, hitting the target with multiple projectiles is the most important.
    You better see your eye doctor about your (limited?) vision.
    :worthy::worthy::worthy:

    The part I highlighted is why accuracy and control are ALWAYS a factor. I will admit, I have never fired one of the Judge abominations. I picked one up one time, out of balance, nose heavy, a toy for plinking or blasting at vermin with. Home defense, especially when recommended for someone not as familiar with firearms, nope, I don't think so. I bet you are one those guys who tells people to get a shotgun because you "don't have to aim them". My vision is fine, thank you, just don't agree with what you are sellin'.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    Airedale wrote: »
    Sorry, but accuracy and control are hardly prerequisites in a situation where the maximum range is twenty feet.
    At that range, hitting the target with multiple projectiles is the most important.
    You better see your eye doctor about your (limited?) vision.
    :worthy::worthy::worthy:

    At any range beyond "get off me" accuracy and control are always vital concerns. At any distance beyond point-blank, your adversary is likely a moving target, may be facing sideways, and may even be firing or about to fire at you. You might be surprised how difficult it is to hit such a target once, let alone with multiple projectiles. Controlling your own anxiety will be hard enough, let alone dealing with a firearm that is also difficult to aim and/or control.

    Practice, practice, practice. And then, practice some more. Break for lunch, then practice.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,097 Senior Member
    Airedale wrote: »
    For strictly home defense, I would choose the Taurus Judge or the competing S&W Governor loaded with .410 buckshot.
    I would discount the quality of the Taurus because (hopefully) this weapon would have very limited use.
    Watch this and maybe you will understand my concerns about using a .410 shell (even one specifically designed for those handguns) for SD...
    So when he shot the denim/ribs/pork combo... some got to the juicy center (penetrated all the pork), didn't they? Those were the ones that slipped between the ribs. Noticed that they bounced off when they hit a rib. What if you shoot someone centermass? That sternum is solid bone. I doubt that ammo will penetrate a sternum and do damage to the heart/lungs. How about a side shot where you may have to penetrate a humerus, then a ribcage? A good 45 Colt SD load will get you to where you need to go. Those shot shells won't. And since using .410 shells for SD seems pointless, what is the point of suggesting a Judge/Governor for a HD gun? Maybe a trail gun to serve SD and pest control, but not a dedicated HD gun.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,097 Senior Member
    Oh, and of those "multiple projectiles"? In that supposedly badass Winchester load, they are firing of 12 BB's at 750fps. A Daisy Powerline fires off BB's at 800fps...
    http://www.daisy.com/node/3
    So what you are recommending is that you shoot someone with a BB gun a dozen times to save your life? The three "disks" in that load are supposed to weigh 71 grains and be .36" in diameter. At 750fps, that is a lightweight and anemic .380 round at best.

    Did you see how far that load spread at across the room distance? Those are a bit too spread out for my liking. I want to hit what I intend to shoot and only what I intend to shoot. That will take a bit of aiming no matter what.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,097 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    The three "disks" in that load are supposed to weigh 71 grains and be .36" in diameter. At 750fps, that is a lightweight and anemic .380 round at best.
    I am sorry, I was wrong. Those disks represent something between a .25acp and a .32acp-- but bigger in diameter so it will not penetrate as far.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Like a bad penny or a hemorrhoid, theses members seem to re-appear from time to time to stir the pot after storming off in a foot stamping pouty snouty hissy fit etc.....

    Oh sure, let Me buy the strangest claptrap of a strange caliber to defend the lives of My loved ones and Myself, sure, there is better stuff out there, well proven by countless others, but I know better some how........ :roll:

    Man O Man !!!! Taurus Judge indeed, Pffffftttt, even the S&W .410 Pffffftttttttt.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Airedale wrote: »
    Sorry, but accuracy and control are hardly prerequisites in a situation where the maximum range is twenty feet.
    At that range, hitting the target with multiple projectiles is the most important.
    You better see your eye doctor about your (limited?) vision.
    :worthy::worthy::worthy:


    You can babble all you want to, however, I played with the .410 extensively, I MEAN EXTENSIVELY !!!! full size shotguns, I was less than impressed with the .410 shotgun cartridge or slug performance wise for that matter for hunting or anything other than perhaps pest control, rats, pigeons, but now enter a short barreled revolver ?? or worse, an even shorter barreled derringer with a barrel robbing 3 1/2 inches of cartridge ????

    First, I would have to un-learn everything I know first hand about personal defense, Why oh Why would I lead people astray ? the less experienced that might read an ill conceived notion, and think it Gospel and follow it.


    If it took 18 rounds of 158 gn RNL RP .38 special, to put down a drunk & drugged out psycho, would I trust a .410 of even more dubious performance ? a resounding and emphatic NO ! Do not believe him !!!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Airedale wrote: »
    Sorry, but accuracy and control are hardly prerequisites in a situation where the maximum range is twenty feet.
    At that range, hitting the target with multiple projectiles is the most important.
    You better see your eye doctor about your (limited?) vision.
    :worthy::worthy::worthy:

    That is plain wrong, let Me count the ways,

    1. Accuracy and control are way way mondo importante !!! REALLY IMPORTANT !! at any range you will shoot at, from point blank range to 200 meters.....
    Even though most of My Instructors droned that the usual range is 7 - 10 feet (sidearms not rifles or shotguns)

    2. The hitting the target with multiple projectile idea is Ok, but the projectiles / ammo should be up to the task, 9 mm .45 acp etc..... can you use other calibers ? Sure, uncharted waters etc..... poor performers, I would rather the tried and true....

    3. Good vision does not correct a poor choice in calibers.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,097 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    If it took 18 rounds of 158 gn RNL RP .38 special, to put down a drugged out psycho, would I trust a .410 of even more dubious performance ? a resounding and emphatic NO ! Do not believe him !!!
    I was just going to bring that up. Let us say that you had an anemic 158gr load going 750fps like the 71gr 000 buckshot stuff is supposed to. If that didn't work, do you think for a second that the 71 grains at 750 will do it? Especially when I show you a video of it bouncing off pork ribs?

    If someone wants one of those guns, fine. Just use decent 45 Colt SD ammo in it. The shot shells are a joke. Yes, you will have to aim.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    It may be one thing to read about it in a gun magazine, but when it happens to you, and you are the LEO standing there with a smoking empty revolver, no more ammo and a still alive machete wielding creep is staggering towards you, you learn something, something you do not learn simply by reading forum posts alone.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I was just going to bring that up. Let us say that you had an anemic 158gr load going 750fps like the 71gr 000 buckshot stuff is supposed to. If that didn't work, do you think for a second that the 71 grains at 750 will do it? Especially when I show you a video of it bouncing off pork ribs?

    If someone wants one of those guns, fine. Just use decent 45 Colt SD ammo in it. The shot shells are a joke. Yes, you will have to aim.

    That is the bottom line !!!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • AiredaleAiredale Banned Posts: 624 Senior Member
    I'm trying to restrain myself.
    You obviously don't have a high regard for the Taurus.
    Either do I.
    I'm also not a big fan of shotguns for home defense. Takes too long to get them from out from under the bed.
    Home defense situations are entirely different from controlled firing on a range.
    In the case of home invasion, speed is paramount.
    You may only have time to fire one or two shots.
    If you or your wife can hit an intruder with multiple projectiles from your defense weapon of choice, that becomes an advantage over the single projectile.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,097 Senior Member
    I would agree with you if the projectiles had adequate power. The problem is that they don't. It is kind of like trying to incapacitate someone with 12 wiffle ball bats simultaneously or use one well placed hit with a solid ash Louisville Slugger. I will take the Louisville Slugger.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    Airedale wrote: »
    I'm trying to restrain myself.
    Try harder :tooth:
    You obviously don't have a high regard for the Taurus.
    Either do I.
    See we do agree on something
    I'm also not a big fan of shotguns for home defense. Takes too long to get them from out from under the bed.
    Then don't leave it under the bed
    Home defense situations are entirely different from controlled firing on a range.
    In the case of home invasion, speed is paramount.
    You may only have time to fire one or two shots.
    All the more reason to use something that will do some good
    If you or your wife can hit an intruder with multiple projectiles from your defense weapon of choice, that becomes an advantage over the single projectile.
    Agreed, I'm not the one that told people to go out and buy a junker revolver that uses an inadequate chambering for home defense
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,935 Senior Member
    Airedale wrote: »
    understand.
    Welcome aboard
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    Welcome aboard, AGAIN

    FIFY
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,502 Senior Member
    I'm gonna throw in some personal observations, granted this is like comparing apples to coconuts, it involves a 12ga. 3" 1oz slug out of a 3 1/2" bbl. I have killed a few sharks with a 12ga. powerhead. On cutting the sharks open it was obvious that the slug did not kill the sharks, what did all the damage to the internal organs was the pressure of to expanding gas. I personally would never use a .410 with a short bbl. as SD. As a retired gunsmith, before I bought a Taurus I think I would build a revolver from scratch. JMHO

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,076 Senior Member
    jaywapti wrote: »
    I'm gonna throw in some personal observations, granted this is like comparing apples to coconuts, it involves a 12ga. 3" 1oz slug out of a 3 1/2" bbl. I have killed a few sharks with a 12ga. powerhead. On cutting the sharks open it was obvious that the slug did not kill the sharks, what did all the damage to the internal organs was the pressure of to expanding gas. I personally would never use a .410 with a short bbl. as SD. As a retired gunsmith, before I bought a Taurus I think I would build a revolver from scratch. JMHO

    JAY
    my understanding is that a powerhead works more by concussion and gas injection than by the bullet. Understandable, when you consider that a fish (sharks included) or alligator's brain is quite small, smaller than that of the average politician's, and hitting such a tiny target with any bullet is quite difficult. It would also explain why a bang stick will kill a shark, whereas shooting it in the head when held above water with an equivalent-caliber/gauge firearm is usually a waste of ammo.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "I'm also not a big fan of shotguns for home defense. Takes too long to get them from out from under the bed."

    "Then don't leave it under the bed"

    Oh man, I am rolling on the floor laughing now !!!! I guess the millions out there that use shotguns for defensive purposes better get on their knees and repent of their heresy...... :roll: what ineffable twaddle & balderdash maybe even blathering blatherskite or:

    applesauce, balderdash, baloney, beans, bilge, blah, blah-blah, blarney, blather, nonsense, blither, bosh, bull, bunk, bunkum or buncombe, claptrap, codswallop, crapola, crock, drivel, drool, fiddle, fiddle-faddle, fiddlesticks, flannel, flapdoodle, folderol also falderal, folly, foolishness, fudge, garbage, guff, hogwash, hokeypokey, hokum, hoodoo, hooey, horsefeathers, humbug, humbuggery, jazz, malarkey also malarky, moonshine, muck, nerts, nuts, piffle, poppycock, punk, rot, rubbish, senselessness, silliness, slush, stupidity, taradiddle or tarradiddle, tommyrot, tosh, trash, trumpery, twaddle.....

    Add: YABBLE DABBLE !!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    Don't leave it under the bed.

    headboardshotgun.gif
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
  • AiredaleAiredale Banned Posts: 624 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    At any range beyond "get off me" accuracy and control are always vital concerns. At any distance beyond point-blank, your adversary is likely a moving target, may be facing sideways, and may even be firing or about to fire at you. You might be surprised how difficult it is to hit such a target once, let alone with multiple projectiles. Controlling your own anxiety will be hard enough, let alone dealing with a firearm that is also difficult to aim and/or control.

    Practice, practice, practice. And then, practice some more. Break for lunch, then practice.

    I agree that practice is important on the range.
    But we're talking about "get off me accuracy". Your words.
    Point blank, self defense actions.
    It's a whole lot more difficult to hit an intruder with a weapon firing a single projectile than a cartridge firing multiple ones.
    A blunderbus is more effective at short range than a Kentucky rifle.
    Get the picture??
  • AiredaleAiredale Banned Posts: 624 Senior Member
    shooter wrote: »
    Don't leave it under the bed.

    headboardshotgun.gif

    A Colt Commander that lives under my pillow.
    I didn't have to buy a special bed and my wife doesn't have to worry about getting bonked on the head.
    Well rehearsed, and you are one handsome dude.
    :silly:
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    Airedale wrote: »
    I agree that practice is important on the range.
    But we're talking about "get off me accuracy". Your words.
    Point blank, self defense actions.

    Look at my words again- "any range BEYOND "get off me"..." Then again, "any distance BEYOND point-blank..."

    I agree with you completely that at indoor or premises distances, a shotgun is my preferred firearm in a deadly encounter with a home invader, which is why I have one pimped out and set up expressly for that contingency.
    Mine is loaded with 9 rounds of #4 Buckshot or BB shot, whichever is on sale. I like a LOT of pellets, and I also like them large enough to successfully influence the attitude of the target. In the side saddle shell holder I keep 3 flashbang rounds and 3 slugs - just in case a wayward triceratops wanders into my yard, corners my dachshund-Chihuahua, and starts nibbling my Topsy Turvy tomato plants.
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