Efforts to ban lead shot -- tell me about it

13

Replies

  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,338 Senior Member
    High density polymer compound? Everybody start loading their shotgun shells with airsoft pellets. Yea plastic will substitute nicely for lead.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,233 Senior Member
    It would be VERY easy to coat lead shot with a layer of PVC or similar material to make lead leaching into the environment from it(if that actually occurs) a moot point, and bird digestive tracts could not dissolve it to poison them. I have a CRAPLOAD of steel balls in sizes from approximately #6 shot size to 1/2" that are coated with a high density plastic that are used for crushing stuff in a homemade rotary drum tumbler(9" dia. x 12" length drum). I've been using these for approximately 25 years, and they show NO signs of deterioration from the abuse they take in the rotary tumbler. The technology has been available to do this for a long time, but there is no drive to make it happen. Since the tree hugging 'rat is a dog is a boy' eco-freaks would go ballistic if plastic covered lead shot were made available and negate their aim to ban all hunting, it would at least bring their true agenda to light.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    It would be VERY easy to coat lead shot with a layer of PVC or similar material to make lead leaching into the environment from it(if that actually occurs) a moot point, and bird digestive tracts could not dissolve it to poison them. etc.

    Now that's a good idea -- just coat the pellets. IF and ONLY IF lead shot is indeed proven to be harmful to the environment.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    wildgene wrote: »
    ...well, Sam, in that case, lead shot is indeed a hazard. So are meteorites, & the chance that you, anyone you know, anyone you don't know will be killed by lead poisoning as a result of lead shot or being struck by & killed by a meteorite run about the same, fairly close to infinitesimal, but it could happen. etc.

    Er, lemme try to induce some logic here... I was quite clear about NOT knowing about whether lead shot is a GENUINE hazard. I really don't know. And by GENUINE I of course meant significant statistically. Duh.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    High density polymer compound? Everybody start loading their shotgun shells with airsoft pellets. Yea plastic will substitute nicely for lead.

    I kinda doubt that airsoft pellets are high density polymer. I'm talking about some sort of exotic polymer that has the density sufficient to work but not being steel, won't damage bores. There are ALL sorts of polymer compounds nowadays. Teflon and polyethylene and PVC and whatever, many compounds (a high-tech term) with special properties.

    I don't know the polymer used for airsoft pellets but I'm guessing it's polyethylene, which is decidedly LOW density.

    But you're apparently more familiar with polymers than I am and therefore have studied the types of high density compounds, and determined that they're unsuitable substitutes for lead shot. In your research, you may however wish to further explore some new compounds that are specifically targeted for shotgun use. Let us know.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 7,434 Senior Member
    I wonder what plastic coating on lead shot could do to pattern density. The one advantage (if you will) to steel shot is that it patterns tighter than lead because it's harder. Lead opens things up a good bit and going with and I have no clue if PVC would help or hurt this. Thinking about it, PVC might actually make for a harder outer surface than lead, possibly creating a pattern advantage.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,233 Senior Member
    Six-Gun wrote: »
    I wonder what plastic coating on lead shot could do to pattern density. The one advantage (if you will) to steel shot is that it patterns tighter than lead because it's harder. Lead opens things up a good bit and going with and I have no clue if PVC would help or hurt this. Thinking about it, PVC might actually make for a harder outer surface than lead, possibly creating a pattern advantage.

    A hard slick plastic coating on lead shot would help the shot 'cue up' in the barrel and choke a lot better, and undeformed lead shot flies better than crushed and dented shot. Pattern density would/should improve, especially in the really tight turkey type full+ chokes.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,000 Senior Member
    Plastic coated lead would grind up in the gizzard same as plain lead.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • wildgenewildgene Senior Member Posts: 1,036 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Er, lemme try to induce some logic here... I was quite clear about NOT knowing about whether lead shot is a GENUINE hazard. I really don't know. And by GENUINE I of course meant significant statistically. Duh.

    ..."Logic", you say, Sam??? Maybe you should consider the original source, or more to the point, the intent of the "research", where the funding came from, etc.etc...
    Would it surprise you if your path lead down to the same people who quote things like "97% of Americans support more gun control", or purpose a 100% sales tax on ammo to "pay for the horrific medical costs created by 'Gun Violence' ", or that you are "83X" more likely to be shot w/ your own personal defense weapon, or...

    ..."The Next Ice Age"...
    ..."Global Warming"...
    ...banning DDT...
    ..."Global Climate Change"...
    ...Spotted owls, Preble's Jumping mouse, snail darters...
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,338 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    I kinda doubt that airsoft pellets are high density polymer. I'm talking about some sort of exotic polymer that has the density sufficient to work but not being steel, won't damage bores. There are ALL sorts of polymer compounds nowadays. Teflon and polyethylene and PVC and whatever, many compounds (a high-tech term) with special properties.

    I don't know the polymer used for airsoft pellets but I'm guessing it's polyethylene, which is decidedly LOW density.

    But you're apparently more familiar with polymers than I am and therefore have studied the types of high density compounds, and determined that they're unsuitable substitutes for lead shot. In your research, you may however wish to further explore some new compounds that are specifically targeted for shotgun use. Let us know.

    Well Sam, we use several of the strongest polymers we can find to build custom test fixtures for the mfr. floor and while I don't know if they are the most dense, they are extremly light and tough to cut, they like to melt. Nowhere near the weight of an equivalent piece of lead.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,610 Senior Member
    NO, ya cant use polymer or plastic coated shot because its made from petroleum, and someone will do a study and determine that in 500 years it will break down into OIL. Think about the massive oil spills in our lakes.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    wildgene wrote: »
    ..."Logic", you say, Sam??? Maybe you should consider the original source, or more to the point, the intent of the "research", where the funding came from, etc.etc...

    Er, that's EXACTLY my point! Thanks for helping me make it. Thus far there seems to be NO REAL and IMPARTIAL SCIENTIFIC study or evidence either way, lead shot being a significant hazard or not.

    Slowly, let me repeat again... sheesh! .... how many times does it take? So hey, okay, R-E-A-D what I'm saying again, for the umteenth time:

    1. I DO NOT NOT NOT NOT KNOW whether lead shot is a genuine environmental hazard!

    2. I DO NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT agree with the rabble rousers who want to ban lead shot "just because"!

    3. I think it's important to know in truth whether lead shot is in fact a significant environmental hazard. It may be or it may not be.

    What about these points don't you understand? Duh.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Well Sam, we use several of the strongest polymers we can find to build custom test fixtures for the mfr. floor and while I don't know if they are the most dense, they are extremly light and tough to cut, they like to melt. Nowhere near the weight of an equivalent piece of lead.

    Well, I only spent 10 years working for Gulf Oil Chemicals in polymer research but that was years back, and I'm certainly not up on all the high tech polymers now extant. But as was suggested, simply coating lead w. a tough polymer might be the real deal.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,000 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Er, that's EXACTLY my point! Thanks for helping me make it. Thus far there seems to be NO REAL and IMPARTIAL SCIENTIFIC study or evidence either way, lead shot being a significant hazard or not.

    Slowly, let me repeat again... sheesh! .... how many times does it take? So hey, okay, R-E-A-D what I'm saying again, for the umteenth time:

    1. I DO NOT NOT NOT NOT KNOW whether lead shot is a genuine environmental hazard!

    2. I DO NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT agree with the rabble rousers who want to ban lead shot "just because"!

    3. I think it's important to know in truth whether lead shot is in fact a significant environmental hazard. It may be or it may not be.

    What about these points don't you understand? Duh.
    Just google ducks and lead shot and make your own opinion from reading the studies, some of which do seem valid.

    The problem is, is the crippling rate with steel shot worse for duck populations than the poisoning rate.

    What I've never seen is data on the effect on humans from eating ducks with a high lead content in their tissue; I have seen data on hunters eating game shot with
    lead and it is not a problem.

    Lead shot and fragments of lead are not so dangerous to humans as lead dust or lead combined with other elements and ingested by animals and or people.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 7,434 Senior Member
    For a little topical contrast in this thread, I will add that the lead ban had far greater reaching tentacles than just directly impacting what could be used for hunting. The base rod & gun club at Offutt was closed permanently when lead shot from the shotgun range turned up in a drain pipe. Same watershed restriction apparently apply.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    The same screeching idiots that got lead carbonate banned as a paint pigment also eliminated the very best machinists' lubricant for lathe centers- - - -"white lead". When it's mixed with linseed oil into a thick paste, and not thinned out with turpentine and slapped on woodwork, the same compound that supposedly kills generations of kids too dumb not to eat paint chips becomes a fine lubricant. Fortunately, I've got a lifetime supply, so the enviro-wackos can go urinate on a vertical piece of braided hemp!

    Wheel balancing weights made of zinc instead of lead aren't nearly as effective (not dense enough) but they've also become popular. Maybe the kids are chasing cars like neighborhood dogs and gnawing on the wheel weights now?
    :confused:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,233 Senior Member
    Wind farms are the grim reapers of eagles, other raptors, various other birds, and bats.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2013/09/22/wind-energy-gets-away-with-murder/
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Wind farms are the grim reapers of eagles, other raptors, various other birds, and bats.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2013/09/22/wind-energy-gets-away-with-murder/

    Nonsense. That is just another BS story fabricated by those with money tied up in oil and have much to lose to alternative energy. Most birds simply won't even go near these machines when they are in operation. I pass by hundreds of these machines daily when working my route on the railroad and have yet to see one raptor flying near these turbines or dead below at the base. Again, BS story. House cats, motor vehicles, airplanes kill far more birds each year.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,233 Senior Member
    Nonsense. That is just another BS story fabricated by those with money tied up in oil and have much to lose to alternative energy. Most birds simply won't even go near these machines when they are in operation. I pass by hundreds of these machines daily when working my route on the railroad and have yet to see one raptor flying near these turbines or dead below at the base. Again, BS story. House cats, motor vehicles, airplanes kill far more birds each year.

    Bullsqueeze. Here's two more articles, one from the Washington Times, and one from Save The Eagles International. One from the 'establishment' and one from the 'tree huggers'; fair and balanced. Put that in your pipe and smoke it instead of that stuff from Colorado. :rotflmao: :tooth:


    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/6/obama-issues-permits-wind-farms-kill-more-eagles/?page=all

    http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/new/us-windfarms-kill-10-20-times-more-than-previously-thought.html


    Dr. Shawn Smallwood’s 2004 study, spanning four years, estimated that California’s Altamont Pass wind “farm” killed an average of 116 Golden Eagles annually (2). This adds up to 2,900 dead “goldies” since it was built 25 years ago. Altamont is the biggest sinkhole for the species, but not the only one, and industry-financed research claiming that California’s GE population is stable is but a white-wash.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,739 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    High density polymer compound? Everybody start loading their shotgun shells with airsoft pellets. Yea plastic will substitute nicely for lead.


    Although some other member here who's held countless lofty positions in the field of chemistry and research scoffs at such a sophmoric statement,:up:it actually is close to the truth. The difference between a low density plastic and an ultra high density plastic is pretty insignificant when you compare it to materials that aren't plastic. The hardest of plastics (and I use the generic term plastic rather than all the technical terms like HMPE,UHMW, or even UHMWPE because I don't want to illude people to think that I'm smarter than I really am as I learned all of this in about 15 minutes of googling) has a density in the neighborhood of 1175 kg/m3. In comparison lead has a density of 11340 kg/m3. The densest common metal would be aluminum which is far too light or "undense":tooth: to be used as a projectile and aluminum has a density of about 2700 kg/m3. The bottom line is that the densest plastics are nowhere near dense enough to make shot pellets out of and your analogy with airsoft pellets is spot on. I would think anyone with even a minimum amount of involvement with plastics would grasp this.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,252 Senior Member
    Since high density polymers have been brought back up....

    Consider semiautomatic firearms. In all but the clunkiest of mechanisms (think High Point,) the reciprocating part(s) (i.e. bolt carrier assembly and buffer, bolt, slide, etc.) are almost always made of steel with polymer used only as a buffer material. Sometimes a denser material like lead or tungsten may be added to increase mass, but some sort of metal is needed to provide a dense reciprocating assembly, as the weight of the assembly is needed to provide the inertial resistance to allow for safe operation. While a higher power recoil/buffer spring may be used to slow down the reciprocating assembly, if the assembly is too light you'll need a very heavy spring to compensate. If you go too light, you'll need a spring of such high power that it is impossible for most users to manage. Witness the difference in spring rate and ease of manipulation when one goes from a 5" 1911 to a 3" Officer's model.

    Shotgun pellets need a certain amount of mass to penetrate effectively. If you use a less dense material, you generally have to go with a larger diameter to compensate. Using Fisheadgib's info, you'd need an exceedingly large pellet to get enough mass to allow for penetration and effectiveness. Furthermore, the presence of a "high density polymer" is counter-indicated in that they're not used in the firearms manufacturing industry. If such a high density, but easy to work with material did exist, it would stand to reason that it's in use in making buffers, bolt carriers, slides, or other parts of the reciprocating mechanism of a firearm. Anyone know of a firearm that does use polymer for such parts?

    Anyone?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,962 Senior Member
    Since high density polymers have been brought back up....

    Consider semiautomatic firearms. In all but the clunkiest of mechanisms (think High Point,) the reciprocating part(s) (i.e. bolt carrier assembly and buffer, bolt, slide, etc.) are almost always made of steel with polymer used only as a buffer material. Sometimes a denser material like lead or tungsten may be added to increase mass, but some sort of metal is needed to provide a dense reciprocating assembly, as the weight of the assembly is needed to provide the inertial resistance to allow for safe operation. While a higher power recoil/buffer spring may be used to slow down the reciprocating assembly, if the assembly is too light you'll need a very heavy spring to compensate. If you go too light, you'll need a spring of such high power that it is impossible for most users to manage. Witness the difference in spring rate and ease of manipulation when one goes from a 5" 1911 to a 3" Officer's model.

    Shotgun pellets need a certain amount of mass to penetrate effectively. If you use a less dense material, you generally have to go with a larger diameter to compensate. Using Fisheadgib's info, you'd need an exceedingly large pellet to get enough mass to allow for penetration and effectiveness. Furthermore, the presence of a "high density polymer" is counter-indicated in that they're not used in the firearms manufacturing industry. If such a high density, but easy to work with material did exist, it would stand to reason that it's in use in making buffers, bolt carriers, slides, or other parts of the reciprocating mechanism of a firearm. Anyone know of a firearm that does use polymer for such parts?

    Anyone?

    Not I said the pig....If it could be done with present technology I would think we'd already be seeing it. The ammunition makers are well aware of the problems Steel shot has presented and they are also well aware that most people can't really afford the heavy shot alternatives.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,338 Senior Member
    Some 22 semi auto rifles use plastic buffers.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    What about a "space age high density polymer"?
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Some 22 semi auto rifles use plastic buffers.

    Like Bream said buffers. Not bolts, bolt carriers, slides, or receivers. With the obvious exception of AR-15 lower receivers.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,338 Senior Member
    Nonsense. That is just another BS story fabricated by those with money tied up in oil and have much to lose to alternative energy. Most birds simply won't even go near these machines when they are in operation. I pass by hundreds of these machines daily when working my route on the railroad and have yet to see one raptor flying near these turbines or dead below at the base. Again, BS story. House cats, motor vehicles, airplanes kill far more birds each year.

    Then why did Obama give energy companies a waiver on fines for killing protected birds with windmills if it's not an issue?
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,252 Senior Member
    Like Bream said buffers. Not bolts, bolt carriers, slides, or receivers. With the obvious exception of AR-15 lower receivers.
    Yeah, but the lowers don't really move. The thing is, and what people need to keep in mind, is that the part that moves due to recoil or gas pressure: the bolt, the slide, the bolt carrier, etc.... that needs a certain amount of mass/weight to make unlocking and its rearward velocity somewhat gentle. Otherwise you'll get very, very high slide velocities unless you use a spring that's so strong King Kong would have a hard time moving it.

    That's part of the problem that with present technology a true plastic semiautomatic firearm - slide, magazine, frame all out of polymer - is currently impossible.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,338 Senior Member
    Plastic firing pin? I don't know, anything that gets hot will melt.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,233 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Well, no silly. :tooth: There's some parts that just won't ever be plastic. But I think an almost all Tupperware 22 isn't out of the question. Practical? Not really. Marketable? Probably not. But possible? I think so.

    Remington Nylon 66 family of .22LR rifles. Receiver was all plastic with metal bolt, barrel, springs and fasteners. They were, like, only 60 years ahead of everybody else. :roll2:
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



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