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gaiman
BannedPosts: 60 Member
200 yds or so, 223 softpoint is 2400 fps (or so), works great.
gaiman
BannedPosts: 60 Member
NAILS coyotes to the ground, blowing 2" wide holes in their chests. :-) yet 55 grs at 2400 fps is "only" 122 momentum (ie, same as a 122 gr bullet at a lousy 1000 fps. We (should have) known that high velocity is the way to go for handgun stopping power for over 30 years now. The original Glaser 9mm load (5" barrel) was 96 grs at 1800+ fps for the LEAA tests, 32 years ago. I AINT TALKING ABOUT THE STOPPING POWER TEST, OK? Just the chronoed velocities recorded, can you understand that much? The velocities were real and are my only concern in this post. WE DON'T HAVE TO SETTLE FOR 1400 FPS, and we don't have to settle for bullets made out of glue and birdshot, either. We can safely get solid copper or aluminum, 45-66 gr bullets (depending upon caliber) to 2400 fps in 5" barrels.
We have (or should have) known for 30+ years that ENOUGH larger bore diameter (ie, 12 ga slugs) works really well, even at a mere 1300 fps, and without a hp cavity, even. As a kid, I centered a metal quart oil can (full of water) with a 12 ga slug from about 10 ft distance. (double barrel, I couldn't afford slugs) :-) Not only did the can get blown to frags (soaking me) it ALSO dented down the wire bicycle basket (about 2" down) upon which I had set the can. So you do NOT need the same 2400 fps with a .45 that you need with a 223 bullet, to get the same effects. 2200 fps work just fine.
Nor am I talking about using pistols at 200 yds, OKAY? I am talking about the ranges at which pistols get used by civilians in justifiable defense (ie, 5 yds, and less, over 90% of the time and they don't need to HIT anyone 90% of the time. So the "range" is gonna be 5 yds and less 99% of the time. :-) They don't need to FIRE over 80% of the time, if they have the sense to make the punk aware of their (the defenders') gun at a time and distance enough for the punk to stop and flee, and if they are smart enough to LEAVE THE PUNK AN EXIT.
I knew Louie Seman fairly well. He was the state cop who got Ill state police to switch from the 357 to 9mm, back in 1970 (or so, I forget). Louie said that even for cops, the bullet should fall straight to the ground after 100 yds of flat travel. :-) Since nobody can demo that they can hit anything (while being shot at) at even 50 yds, Louie was being conservative by a factor of 2.
So I WANT my bullets to really lose velocity and power swiftly. I couldn't care less if they bounce off of men at 50 yds, IF THEY ARE much more effective (than normal handgun ammo) at 5 yds. And these 2200 fps, 800 ft lb .45 loads ARE. It's quite provable on animals. These loads make 230 gr jhp's look sick by comparison.
We have (or should have) known for 30+ years that ENOUGH larger bore diameter (ie, 12 ga slugs) works really well, even at a mere 1300 fps, and without a hp cavity, even. As a kid, I centered a metal quart oil can (full of water) with a 12 ga slug from about 10 ft distance. (double barrel, I couldn't afford slugs) :-) Not only did the can get blown to frags (soaking me) it ALSO dented down the wire bicycle basket (about 2" down) upon which I had set the can. So you do NOT need the same 2400 fps with a .45 that you need with a 223 bullet, to get the same effects. 2200 fps work just fine.
Nor am I talking about using pistols at 200 yds, OKAY? I am talking about the ranges at which pistols get used by civilians in justifiable defense (ie, 5 yds, and less, over 90% of the time and they don't need to HIT anyone 90% of the time. So the "range" is gonna be 5 yds and less 99% of the time. :-) They don't need to FIRE over 80% of the time, if they have the sense to make the punk aware of their (the defenders') gun at a time and distance enough for the punk to stop and flee, and if they are smart enough to LEAVE THE PUNK AN EXIT.
I knew Louie Seman fairly well. He was the state cop who got Ill state police to switch from the 357 to 9mm, back in 1970 (or so, I forget). Louie said that even for cops, the bullet should fall straight to the ground after 100 yds of flat travel. :-) Since nobody can demo that they can hit anything (while being shot at) at even 50 yds, Louie was being conservative by a factor of 2.
So I WANT my bullets to really lose velocity and power swiftly. I couldn't care less if they bounce off of men at 50 yds, IF THEY ARE much more effective (than normal handgun ammo) at 5 yds. And these 2200 fps, 800 ft lb .45 loads ARE. It's quite provable on animals. These loads make 230 gr jhp's look sick by comparison.
Replies
Kinda sorta exactly the same as the others........but different in a similar way.
You are incapable of a coherent basis for your position of argument. How do we debate incoherent ramblings?
But, I admit to reading your posts as one would watch a train wreck.
He's frantically shoveling as much crap as he can in the limited time he has....
.223 has frontal area of .039 sq inches
.452 has frontal area of .160 sq inches
Doesn't make him less wrong though.
NRA Life Member
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Gaiman, some friendly advice, as it were. Fairy tales begin with, "Once upon a time", while sea stories begin with, "This ain't no ****". And mixing crack and meth and smoking it isn't healthy. Kthnxbye.
― Douglas Adams
I bet he wets his pants at the thought of an exit wound.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
Sure I can.
First, the historical part. Cops went to 9mm in the 80's for the sole reason of politics.
Second, any straight up comparison of any bullet vs bullet using only ft/lbs E and weight of bullet, is crap. It leaves zero room for bullet construction.
Third, In your mind no one ever used a handgun at 50 yards. Then why was the std for the 1911 the ability to hit a man sized target at 50 yards? Not to mention there is a recent account of a civilian saving a cop at farther than your imagined max effective range. The very fact that you would limit yourself to 5 yard encounters states that you are not serious.
Forth, a 9mm fired at shoulder height will not hit the ground in 100 yards. In real life you are looking at something less than 12 inches when fired from a zero angle. I know that a 230 gr 45 at 850 FPS will drop about 14 inches from POA at 125 yards, because I actually shoot one that far.
When you come up with anything that isnt imaginary, we will give it a shot.
Just FYI.
You can pre order your next instructional video now. Call Of Duty Advanced Warfare.
Look at it this way gaiman...when you finally get whacked, you'll be a martyr...at least in your own mind....
You can't. It is impossible to have a logical discussion with an illogical person. Train wrecks of this sort are fun to watch, no casualties.
Obviously you don't understand, or are inexperienced in the whole range of potential problems for which self-defense ammunition is loaded. You make a good case for short range effectiveness over long range performance, but you fail to consider that self defense often involves resisting ancient aliens who have abducted you to a cigar shaped mother ship for probing and intrusive examinations. Those cigar shaped ships are long, and (Pay attention here, gaiman) when you're firing down a long hall at a couple of Greys wearing white coats and stethescopes, long range performance can be a factor. Of course, I am on every alien's "Do Not Abduct" list but some of them don't get the updated memos. And then what do you do if your bullet loses all its power in 50 yards if a wayward triceratops wanders into your backyard, corners your Dachshund-Chihuahua, and starts nibbling your Topsy Turvy tomato plants, HUH? DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Power matters, just like size.
You guys are better than me on this score. I couldn't make out what in hell he was trying to say here. Gives me a headache to read it.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Life member of the American Legion, the VFW, the NRA and the Masonic Lodge, retired LEO
:spittingcoffee::roll2:
Forgive me for applying the defibrillator to this banned idiot's two-months-dead thread, but THAT is some funny stuff right there! How well they know me. . .
He WAS an entertaining little tweaker. How long to the next one, I wonder. . .
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
But if he's trying to say a .45 ACP with a .250 grain bullet (or whatever) will kill coyotes as well as a .223, he's crazy, because most coyotes aren't going to hang around within .45 ACP range with regularity and wait for you to take them out. Also, a .45 caliber bullet capable of doing its thing at 200-300 yards is going to kick the living poo poo out of you, and a .223 will do the same thing with finesse. Or then again maybe I got this backwards, but if he's trying to prove the opposite, it's a no brainer because everybody and their dog knows that already.
Don't get me wrong, I like to read a good rant now and then like most of us here, as long as it's half way coherent and makes a clear point. But such doesn't appear to be the case here.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
I was a cop in the 80s when the switch occurred and politics had nothing to do with it. Higher capacity magazines and performance were the reasons. A 9mm generally out-performed the .38 Specials almost uniformly carried by cops back in the day. And held at least twice as many rounds. The recoil was about the same which made the 9 a good choice.
Cost may have had something to do with it, I wasn't on the decision-making circle in those days, but revolvers gave a LOT of trouble, and maintenance costs on revolvers were higher, I do know.
Sam is falling down on the job, it PSEUDO not SUDO! :guns::guns::spittingcoffee: :rotflmao: :tooth: :tooth:
https://www.google.com/search?q=PSEUDO&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb
pseu·do
ˈso͞odō/
adjective
adjective: pseudo
not genuine; sham.
"we are talking about real journalists and not the pseudo kind"
synonyms: bogus, sham, phony, artificial, mock, ersatz, quasi-, fake, false, spurious, deceptive, misleading, assumed, contrived, affected, insincere; More
informalpretend, put-on
"her 'diamonds' are so pseudo"
antonyms: genuine
Origin
If you recall, some 2 years prior to cops switching, there was a huge kerfuffle about the amazing 9mm, aka the wondernine. It would pierce 1/2 in steel and blow a body in half, at least thats what hollywierd portrayed and the politicos decided was fact. There was never a call to go to a more than 7 round magazine for the entire existence of large capacity magazines until the politicians became so separated from reality in the 80's that they believed their buddys in hollyweird. The high cap ban and the bullet bans and the AP bans were at the same time, and that is what got me involved heavily on the political side. Since the bad guys "had" these armor piercing elephant 9mm's, the call was for the cops to have them also. At the time the favorite handgun of bad guys was a chrome revolver, but facts didnt matter. There were Miami Vice shootouts in every street in the minds of politicians, and they had to do something about all of those Lethal Weapons.
As for Browning HPs, yes, they had large capacity mags, but they were SA..as were 1911s, which weren't widely adopted either. I can't think of a single agency that went to HPs. Way to expensive for one thing. SA for another. And the single stack Model 39 SA/DA pistols were around since the 50s in 9mm, but weren't adopted either.
I never heard of 9mms being able to punch through 1/2" of steel. I never heard of them being thought of in that way. The .357s with armor piercing ammo was said to be able to do so, to disable engines of autos. I don't know if this is true, but GSP carried six pointy armor piercing bullets for years until they switched to autos.
I worked for a city and a county, and politics had nothing to do with pistol or ammo selection. In Atlanta in the early 1970s, the mayor forbade the use of HP 38 specials, which was political. It lasted for about a year or so.
The scare tactics happened first, then the big city mayors started saying the need a high cap wondernine. Their US reps back the plan and get funding because of cops being so outgunned while they tried to get bans on cop killer bullets (remember that pile of excrement?). Other locals follow the money and get pistols new also.
Before the scare tactics, no one needed the wondernines.
Edited to add: the big concern back during the change was (in urban settings) the fear of over-penetration. A big problem with 148 RN bullets. The 9mm moved a lighter bullet faster with less danger or a ricochet.
Then S&W turned toward automatics and the revolver supply went down...it was a lot cheaper to make an automatic than a hand fit revolver, you just reached in a bucket and found parts that would work.
I left the PD in 1986 when they were issuing L-frame Smiths. When I returned to LE work in 96, everyone was packing automatics. Cheaper, way more reliable, and with a wider selection of bullet weights and calibers. I came back to .40 S&W Glocks.
The "cop killer" bullets are ancient history from about 20 years ago. They were some kind of coated bullets, Teflon I believe. Kevlar vests have come a long way since "killer bullets."
Your case is riddled with wrong assumptions and kinda dated.
BC