"there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass"

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  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Clunkers by what standard? There were newer ships, but the Arizona and her sister ships were far from useless.

    Sam has emersed himself in a few different lines of conversation on this thread and read mine with predisposed assumptions about its context--including that I was somehow trying to get in his conversations. It didn't fit with any of his conversations so demanded an explanation to it's meaning.
    Fact of the matter is it was a one-liner retort to the OP, nothing more.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk

    Lighten up Francis ...keep me out of you and Sams childish lovers spat, I was just weighing in on some historical tid-bits based on the many books in my personal library. (funny)
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Thanks for the correction. I thought he'd been lost at sea. Keen.

    No, they found his plane in the Jungles of Bougainvillea. They took his body back to Japan and he was given the equivalent of a state Funeral. I personally think it was a rather bad decision to take him out. His cool head may have helped stop the fighting sooner.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I personally think it was a rather bad decision to take him out. His cool head may have helped stop the fighting sooner.

    I have always held the same opinion based on what I have read about this man. Another interesting individual was Baron Nishi who was portrayed in the Clint Eastwood movie "Letters From Iwo Jima". There is actually footage of him during the 1932 Los Angeles Olympics equestrian event on youtube. The scene where he gives aid to a mortally wounded US marine is fiction however.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    I have always held the same opinion based on what I have read about this man. Another interesting individual was Baron Nishi who was portrayed in the Clint Eastwood movie "Letters From Iwo Jima". There is actually footage of him during the 1932 Los Angeles Olympics equestrian event on youtube. The scene where he gives aid to a mortally wounded US marine is fiction however.

    Another interesting Japanese player in WWII was General Masaharu Homma, Commander of the Japanese Army in the Philippines Campaign. I believe he was tried unfairly.

    Homma had actually planned for the U.S.-Filipino surrender and had allowed for humane treatment of the Prisoners while providing food, medicine, and transportation for them. But it was well known some of his more radical subordinates, who ultimately oversaw the surrender and transportation to Camp O'Donnell in Tarlac, about 100 miles to the North of the tip of Bataan, disobeyed his orders and took a hard line against the prisoners, which resulted in the horrible atrocities experienced by the U.S. and Filipino POWs. He later admitted that he was under a lot of pressure from Tokyo to hurry and take Corregador and left the treatment of the defenders of Bataan up to his subordinates whom he had faith in that they would follow his orders.

    He also angered many of the Japanese leaders with his orders to treat the Filipinos as friends rather than captives. So when the American-Filipino forces surrendered, the prisoners were treated very badly.

    Another factor was that Homma and his constituents under estimated the number of prisoners that would surrender. They had estimated and planned for about 25,000 prisoners but there were ultimately 76,000 that surrendered, more than three times the Japanese estimate. So they weren't prepared and what plans that would have been followed went awry.

    After the war, MacArthur had him tried in the Philippines by a military tribunal and he was convicted and executed by firing squad outside of Manila. The irony is that most of the ones responsible for those atrocities that happened on the Death March, and later in Camp O'Donnell and Camp Cabanatuan were not tried for their actions and escaped justice. Now that sucks.

    I'm not saying Homma was without sin and wasn't somewhat responsible. But there were plenty way more guilty of any war crimes that escaped justice that should have been hung like dogs, just like there were also many Guilty Germans that escaped justice. There is no excuse for our justice system committing there share of injustices, I don't care how pissed off we were. Justice is justice and needs to be administered fairly and those guilty should swing on a rope and those innocent or not guilty of offenses worthy of execution should live to help correct their countries short comings. As great a general as I feel MacArthur was I don't agree with his actions after WWII as related to the Philippines.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,583 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Another interesting Japanese player in WWII was General Masaharu Homma, Commander of the Japanese Army in the Philippines Campaign. I believe he was tried unfairly.

    Homma had actually planned for the U.S.-Filipino surrender and had allowed for humane treatment of the Prisoners while providing food, medicine, and transportation for them. But it was well known some of his more radical subordinates, who ultimately oversaw the surrender and transportation to Camp O'Donnell in Tarlac, about 100 miles to the North of the tip of Bataan, disobeyed his orders and took a hard line against the prisoners, which resulted in the horrible atrocities experienced by the U.S. and Filipino POWs. He later admitted that he was under a lot of pressure from Tokyo to hurry and take Corregador and left the treatment of the defenders of Bataan up to his subordinates whom he had faith in that they would follow his orders.

    He also angered many of the Japanese leaders with his orders to treat the Filipinos as friends rather than captives. So when the American-Filipino forces surrendered, the prisoners were treated very badly.

    Another factor was that Homma and his constituents under estimated the number of prisoners that would surrender. They had estimated and planned for about 25,000 prisoners but there were ultimately 76,000 that surrendered, more than three times the Japanese estimate. So they weren't prepared and what plans that would have been followed went awry.

    After the war, MacArthur had him tried in the Philippines by a military tribunal and he was convicted and executed by firing squad outside of Manila. The irony is that most of the ones responsible for those atrocities that happened on the Death March, and later in Camp O'Donnell and Camp Cabanatuan were not tried for their actions and escaped justice. Now that sucks.

    I'm not saying Homma was without sin and wasn't somewhat responsible. But there were plenty way more guilty of any war crimes that escaped justice that should have been hung like dogs, just like there were also many Guilty Germans that escaped justice. There is no excuse for our justice system committing there share of injustices, I don't care how pissed off we were. Justice is justice and needs to be administered fairly and those guilty should swing on a rope and those innocent or not guilty of offenses worthy of execution should live to help correct their countries short comings. As great a general as I feel MacArthur was I don't agree with his actions after WWII as related to the Philippines.
    MacArthur was severely embarrassed by the fall of the Philippines. Given his incredible ego this was a fate worse than death. When he had the opportunity to punish a high ranking Japanese officer he tended to give no quarter.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,137 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    No, they found his plane in the Jungles of Bougainvillea. They took his body back to Japan and he was given the equivalent of a state Funeral. I personally think it was a rather bad decision to take him out. His cool head may have helped stop the fighting sooner.

    I don't agree. His ability as a planner outweighed the possibility of his influence in peace. Senior officers in Japan had less influence than you might expect. Even after the Japanese general staff decided on surrender and recorded the Emperor commanding this, junior officers raided HQ in attempt to steal the recording. Surrender was wildly unpopular in the lower officer ranks, which from the end of WW 1 practiced assassination during the pre-War period for those opposed to war.

    As for Homa, to hell with him. He shared the same weakness of all seniors who subordinate their authority.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,990 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Chief I think you're closer to right than any of us here. We will never know for sure though. But for sure I love your imagined possible quote Custer may have said.

    "I really screwed up and my scalp will be hanging in a Tee-Pee tonight" who knows?

    I just wish someone would have witnessed it, :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

    Yellow Hair's scalp must of been quite the prize :yikes::yikes::yikes:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,990 Senior Member
    Gens. Rommel and Guderian were very reticent about America getting into the fight. I remember a passage from one either's books...."yes our soldiers are better trained......we have unit cohesion, we have better equipment, we are defending the Fatherland........but they have more of everything, and will overcome us in the end........when that time comes.......I'd rather my divisions surrender to the Americans so they will live, because there will be no mercy with the Russians."

    I actually knew a German who was at the siege of Stalingrad in a Panzer MK something and sent to a Russian prison camp. He was one of the 5000 to survive outta 90,000 who Paulus surrendered. He told me about how undisciplined/untrained most the Russian soldiers were, but they were overwhelmed.

    He was very lucky and was in the furniture business near Ulm Germany. He was getting up in the years back then (87-89) when I used to see him at a shootin Haus/Club.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,607 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Yellow Hair's scalp must of been quite the prize :yikes::yikes::yikes:

    We will never know what the real truth is, but one account I've read suggested that Custer was not scalped.

    But most of the accounts written back then contained mostly speculation, and were driven by agendas to either glorify him or discredit him.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,942 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Yellow Hair's scalp must of been quite the prize :yikes::yikes::yikes:

    Just to add to the discussion....Of all the troopers of C, E, F, I and L Troops of the 7th Cavalry that died with Custer at the LBH, only Custer and Miles Keogh were not scalped. On the other hand, Custer's brother, Tom, was so mutilated that he was identified by a tattoo. Custer had his hair cut at Ft. Abraham Lincoln prior to the campaign and so, was not wearing his long, flowing hair the day he was killed.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    Many have said through the years that the Arizona and her sisters were "clunkers", destined to be razor-blades. True they were not up for the modern naval engagement involving carriers. They would have been useful in the island hopping campaigns supporting the invasions.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,942 Senior Member
    Many have said through the years that the Arizona and her sisters were "clunkers", destined to be razor-blades. True they were not up for the modern naval engagement involving carriers. They would have been useful in the island hopping campaigns supporting the invasions.

    Yep...we need to keep in mind that the "Texas" (BB-35), a Dreadnought-class battleship commissioned in 1914, provided naval gunfire support at Normandy on D-Day..."Old" doesn't necessarily mean "Useless". While not a "fast" battleship...her 14" batteries were damn useful
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Yep...we need to keep in mind that the "Texas" (BB-35), a Dreadnought-class battleship commissioned in 1914, provided naval gunfire support at Normandy on D-Day..."Old" doesn't necessarily mean "Useless". While not a "fast" battleship...her 14" batteries were damn useful

    At Iwo and Okinawa all the old sisters and earlier and later classes of the Arizona and Oklahoma, including Texas, provided shore bombardment. Texas didn't come to the Pacific until this time due to the needs of the Atlantic theater, but Arizona's sisters and other old ships were at all the island hopping invasions, including Tarawa, Kwajalein and Leyte. Like you said, they weren't the fastest at 21 knotts, but their guns didn't care.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    MacArthur was severely embarrassed by the fall of the Philippines. Given his incredible ego this was a fate worse than death. When he had the opportunity to punish a high ranking Japanese officer he tended to give no quarter.

    This is right on the money. His ego couldn't allow Homma to live.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I don't agree. His ability as a planner outweighed the possibility of his influence in peace. Senior officers in Japan had less influence than you might expect. Even after the Japanese general staff decided on surrender and recorded the Emperor commanding this, junior officers raided HQ in attempt to steal the recording. Surrender was wildly unpopular in the lower officer ranks, which from the end of WW 1 practiced assassination during the pre-War period for those opposed to war.

    As for Homa, to hell with him. He shared the same weakness of all seniors who subordinate their authority.

    Get real Gene. Every military officer who's ever had a command has delegated his authority at one time or another. Admiral Nimitz was Known for this. Homma, like MacArthur, was Human.

    Another reason I think MacArthur had it in for Homma was his own delegation of authority caused him much grief and may have caused the whole fall of Bataan. I read in MacArthur's biography and in some other books and writings, that according to War Plan Orange, they had enough rice, medicine, and ammo stored where they could hold out for 5 years on Bataan. MacArthur, who was ultimately responsible for getting these very important stores onto Bataan, had no doubt delegated this responsibility to one or more subordinate officers and somebody dropped the ball big time. The reason that General King later surrendered the forces on Bataan was because everyone was starving or sick. They still had ammo and the will to keep fighting, but they didn't have the endurance and were at the end of their rope. If they would have had those very important stores on Bataan, the outcome may have been much different.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,607 Senior Member
    Actually, it was General Wainwright who commanded the forces after McArthur bugged out. King did the early negotiations, but Wainwright was the overall commander, and the one McArthur blamed for the defeat, actually blocking his Medal of Honor citation the first time it came up.

    McArthur was definitely a fine, brave officer in WWI, and along with Nimitz had a winning strategy in the Pacific. But he had many 'warts,' one of which was getting caught flat-footed before Pearl Harbor, like most of the other top brass in the Pacific. And he was never forgiven by a large number of the men he commanded in the Philippines, for escaping to Australia before Corregidor fell. It's true that he was ordered to leave...but it's also true that he was well known for re-interpreting or disobeying orders that didn't jive with his personal agenda.
  • mohicanmohican Member Posts: 380 Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    As we all know, Yamamoto was on a visit to his battle groups in the Pacific and to avoid detection, he flew in a small plane with just one or two escorts. But the Japanese didn't know that we'd cracked the Purple Code and knew his plans. So Adm. Bull Halsey sent a squadron and they shot down Yamamoto, killing him, and removing the single best naval mind they had.

    Good stuff. Extra points to those who can tell (without googling) what type of plane shot Yam down.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,137 Senior Member
    P-38.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • lightkeeperlightkeeper Member Posts: 168 Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Completely wrong on the quote. It's "behind evely blade of glass"

    LOL . Where is slanty shooter on this?
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,583 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    P-38.
    You win the extra points. Lockheed P-38 Lightnings. I'm happy no one referenced the Ba Ba Black Sheep episode with USMC F-4U Corsairs beating USAF P-51 Mustangs to the kill. At least McHale's Navy and Hogan's Heros were supposed to be comedies.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,266 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    You win the extra points. Lockheed P-38 Lightnings. I'm happy no one referenced the Ba Ba Black Sheep episode with USMC F-4U Corsairs beating USAF P-51 Mustangs to the kill. At least McHale's Navy and Hogan's Heros were supposed to be comedies.

    USAA, USAF as not formed until after the war
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,583 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    USAA, USAF as not formed until after the war
    Correct. United States Army Air Force. Formerly Army Air Corps. Sorry bout that!
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    MacArthur also ignored the warning that Pearl had been attacked. Didn't do diddly to get ready for the invasion that followed. Nearly got us into a Nuclear war in Korea. His ego was his defining trait, the more that I learn about him the less there is to be real enthusiastic about.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,995 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    You win the extra points. Lockheed P-38 Lightnings. I'm happy no one referenced the Ba Ba Black Sheep episode with USMC F-4U Corsairs beating USAF P-51 Mustangs to the kill.

    An irksome, but somewhat forgivable bit of Hollywood. Merlin-powered Mustangs with real range weren't even around at the time Yamamoto got flamed (let alone in the Pacific) - the P-38 was the only tool for the job at the time. But it's hard to film a show using aircraft you don't have. I think there are only two flying P38's in the world now; in the 1970's when they were filming that show, there may not have been any. Mustangs, OTOH, all over the place.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    An irksome, but somewhat forgivable bit of Hollywood. Merlin-powered Mustangs with real range weren't even around at the time Yamamoto got flamed (let alone in the Pacific) - the P-38 was the only tool for the job at the time. But it's hard to film a show using aircraft you don't have. I think there are only two flying P38's in the world now; in the 1970's when they were filming that show, there may not have been any. Mustangs, OTOH, all over the place.

    No, there's still a few 38s flying. Back in the 70s and 80s there were quite a few at the Confederate Air Show. But you're right, there's still a bunch of Mustangs. I think they still make em brand new out in Roswell NM right next to the plant where they turn out 57 Chevys. :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,078 Senior Member
    Ain't but 8 flying if Wikipedia is to be believed. I would think this is right.

    Of note: the one being restored by Fantasy of Flight might take awhile. They scaled back their operations in March of 2014.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_Lockheed_P-38_Lightnings#United_States
    Overkill is underrated.
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