Home Main Category Personal Defense

Am I playing a fool's hand for mixing 'manual of arms'?

SmithCorona03A3SmithCorona03A3 MemberPosts: 138 Member
Just wondering how much emphasis you guys put on finding a certain type of defensive pistol trigger/safety mechanism and sticking with it throughout your inventory. Belt guns, car guns, nightstand guns, and EDC/CCW guns. Some guys have striker guns across the board big & small, others DAO, DA/SA, etc. Most of my serious pistols are the DA/SA variety in full size platforms. But I'm finally going to be in a living arrangement where I'll be able to get my carry permit (i.e. no more on-base uncle sam restrictions). I've got my eye on a sig 938 for a carry gun. But it's completely backwards with the thumb safety and trigger type compared to my HK USP and the Beretta M9s (I own one of those as well) that I've fooled with the past several years. I usually carry my USP and the M9s decocked, safety off. (When Uncle Sam isn't looking that is. He wants the safety engaged on the M9, in which case it's become second nature to swipe it up and off during the draw). Which, incidentally is the reverse motion of wiping the safety off a 938 and other 1911 style platforms. Is that going to mess me up, or can multiple muscle memory/motions be learned? Should I set my Beretta in the back of the safe and start carry my HK USP cocked and locked ala 1911, just to help learn the motion? I've looked at a lot of other subcompact 9mm's for a carry gun, but I think I'm still hooked on the 938. But being that a carry gun is probably the most likely thing you'll be stuck with if the crap hits the fan, I don't want to be leading myself on a down a bad alley when it comes to mixing together all these different manual of arms. What say you?
Formerly known as SmithCorona03A3, back in the old forum days

Replies

  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,000 Senior Member
    I switch in and out all the time; and do not see your concerns as an issue.
  • wddodgewddodge Senior Member Posts: 1,142 Senior Member
    I shoot a full sized 1911 most of the summer in pistol matches but I found it is just too big/heavy to comfortably carry. My carry gun is a CZ82 and the controls are almost identical to the 1911...the safety comes off the same direction. Going from one to another is no problem. If you really want to screw me up let me shoot a Smith and Wesson.... The safety is just wrong.

    Denny
    Participating in a gun buy back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids.... Clint Eastwood
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,792 Senior Member
    Most of my serious pistols are the DA/SA variety. . .

    Biting my tongue - hard.:jester:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,374 Senior Member
    Most of what I carry is "point & click" (Kahr, Glocks & occasionally a DA revolver) but I also have 2 1911s (45 & 10mm) that I carry more in the cooler months. I don't have a problem keeping them straight
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 7,016 Senior Member
    It all comes down to practice, shoot, shoot, shoot. You will eventually get one or two that you carry and use the most. The other are range toys. For me Glock 23, full sized 1911 are " in town carry guns" in mountains 20 minutes from my front door, a 45 colt flat top blackhawk with my "mountain loads"
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • SmithCorona03A3SmithCorona03A3 Member Posts: 138 Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Biting my tongue - hard.:jester:

    I'm impressed with your self control 'lol'. If I remember right you're a single action auto type of fellow. "serious" is pretty subjective I admit but blasphemous as it may be I've never been a 1911 guy :uhm:
    Formerly known as SmithCorona03A3, back in the old forum days
  • SmithCorona03A3SmithCorona03A3 Member Posts: 138 Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Most of what I carry is "point & click" (Kahr, Glocks & occasionally a DA revolver) but I also have 2 1911s (45 & 10mm) that I carry more in the cooler months. I don't have a problem keeping them straight

    Believe me I'd love to roll with the point and click pistols but I've tried a lot of them and never could get an appreciation for them. Reliable as hell, but just not my thing. They either never fit me or the triggers were hideous. I like the idea of the simplicity of draw and squeeze but I could never hit a dang thing with'em. I've bought and sold my share of glocks and XDs. I did shoot an XDm once, tho, and I think its a big improvement. That and the M&P would be my choice if I had to be stuck with a modern Tupperware gun. But neither one of them make a subcompact that I like. XDs & shield :hand:
    Formerly known as SmithCorona03A3, back in the old forum days
  • SmithCorona03A3SmithCorona03A3 Member Posts: 138 Member
    Elk creek wrote: »
    ......... a 45 colt flat top blackhawk with my "mountain loads"

    I'm with ya. When it comes to anything outside the realm of defensive pistols, I'll take a single action revolver any day. If it wasn't for the realm of personal defense, I wouldn't give a damn about any semiauto pistol. Long live the .45 colt
    Formerly known as SmithCorona03A3, back in the old forum days
  • SmithCorona03A3SmithCorona03A3 Member Posts: 138 Member
    wddodge wrote: »
    I shoot a full sized 1911 most of the summer in pistol matches but I found it is just too big/heavy to comfortably carry. My carry gun is a CZ82 and the controls are almost identical to the 1911...the safety comes off the same direction. Going from one to another is no problem. If you really want to screw me up let me shoot a Smith and Wesson.... The safety is just wrong.

    Denny

    You talking about the older DA Smith's with the slide mounted safety? Those things are weird even for a guy used to the M9. Never cared for them
    Formerly known as SmithCorona03A3, back in the old forum days
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,420 Senior Member
    I only know what I have learned from my own personal experience with the only thing i ever used a firearm for... hunting.

    I grew up hunting on the farm we lived on. Never used dogs or anything. Just whatever I could kick up. Rabbit, deer, squirrel were never any problem. I got the gun up, hammer back (when I had a H&R), or safety off (when I had a 20 gauge Revelations). Didn't always hit anything, but I usually got a shot off.

    Grouse on the other hand! They would just explode at your feet and I was usually so startled I forgot to turn off the safety or get the hammer back before they had a tree between me and them.

    So...... I can see not remembering to turn off a safety when a gunshot goes off, or a BG's gun comes out. I don't see how you could train for being startled iike that. None of my carry guns will ever have safeties.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,792 Senior Member
    I'm impressed with your self control 'lol'. If I remember right you're a single action auto type of fellow. "serious" is pretty subjective I admit but blasphemous as it may be I've never been a 1911 guy :uhm:

    At the end of the day, it all comes down to FRONT SIGHT --> SMOOTH PRESS, but as basic as that sounds, it's a sometimes a real challenge to convey that concept to fruition in others. I would probably suck-start a load of 00 buck if somebody told me I had to teach basic marksmanship to an entire agency on a system with a trigger pull that changes.

    But to some degree or other, I do have to teach with a little bit of everything. My practice on Glocks is to shoot high-thumbs, which translates nicely to 1911's as it puts my thumb automatically on top of the safety. Sigs have the advantage of not having a safety, and HK's can be run safety off on DA mode. For "hopeless" safety layouts following the PPK/P-38 pattern (Berettas, S&W 39 descendants, Ruger P-85's, etc...) I regard it as better to use the safety to lower the hammer, then take the safety back off and leave it that way.

    Along the same line of reasoning, I typically chamber the first round after a reload by pulling the slide to release rather than thumbing the slide stop. Why? Walther PPK's and HK P7's don't HAVE external slide stops, and Sig Sauer puts theirs in a weird place.

    In short, come up with a few techniques that translate broadly, and you're less likely to crash one particular system.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    I keep it as simple as possible for anything I intend to carry -draw, point, shoot, because I don't practice enough.

    But, I own DA/SA's, 1911, and various types of DA only, because I like them. If I want to carry something besides a revolver or DA only, I just practice with it and 'burn in' to my mind the firing technique, because for me, the last thing I practiced is what comes to mind. The memory fades quickly, and if I can't keep practicing, I go back to DAO or revolver.

    Of course, I don't know if that works, or for that matter, if any other thing that I have practiced and thought about will work.
  • wddodgewddodge Senior Member Posts: 1,142 Senior Member
    You talking about the older DA Smith's with the slide mounted safety? Those things are weird even for a guy used to the M9. Never cared for them

    Those are the ones. Moving the safety up for off is just something that I can't get used to.

    Denny
    Participating in a gun buy back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids.... Clint Eastwood
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    While I own, shoot and enjoy several autoloaders, all my self-home-car defense handguns are revolvers. Just something about them being loaded and ready to go, and yet not under any stress of any kind - no compressed springs, nothing under tension, nothing to weaken, wear, or fatigue. The icing on the cake is they also come in calibers I have grown to love like .22 WMR, .44 Magnum and Special, .45 Colt, .45 ACP and .357 Magnum/.38 Special. BTW, my favorite .45 ACP isn't my 1911 - it's my Webley Mark VI.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,000 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    While I own, shoot and enjoy several autoloaders, all my self-home-car defense handguns are revolvers. Just something about them being loaded and ready to go, and yet not under any stress of any kind - no compressed springs, nothing under tension, nothing to weaken, wear, or fatigue. The icing on the cake is they also come in calibers I have grown to love like .22 WMR, .44 Magnum and Special, .45 Colt, .45 ACP and .357 Magnum/.38 Special. BTW, my favorite .45 ACP isn't my 1911 - it's my Webley Mark VI.

    Wish it was that simple and for the most part you may be right; but, when a revolver jams and they do on occasion, you cannot rack the slide and clear it, you need tools.
    And do not kid your self, revolvers have springs that fail.
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    revolvers have springs that fail.

    You are of course correct but I've never heard of one jamming because it was finicky about ammo. Or needed it's feed ramp polished, or problems with a magazine or any other of the many reasons we practice malfunction drills with our semis.
    Revolver failures are like airplane crashes. They happen only rarely but when they do they're usually catastrophic.
    Also, you will usually need your off hand to clear a semi failure. So if that hand is shot to pieces, or like mine just simply doesn't work in the first place, then you got problems. Which is why I switched to revolvers for the time being. it could lock up on me but it's not likely.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,000 Senior Member
    I've had 2 jam ammo related and a new 45 colt red hawk jam because the hand failed. The trigger would not reset either.

    Case split in one and jammed against the recoil shield----could not turn the cylinder or open it.

    The other was crud related, but, a rnd would not slide back in the cylinder after firing another rnd so that the
    cylinder could advance.
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 5,008 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I have successfully trained myself to carry just about any type of handgun fire/safety mechanism over the years. Everything form DA/SA with decokers or safeties, 1911 type systems and Glock and other similar systems as well as revolvers in DA mode..

    Same here, most of my shooting and hunting was with a SA, I bought my first semi-auto a S&W M-59 in the late 70s. When I carry or use a semi, for me its more natural to carry safety off , hammer down, rather than cocked & locked. When shooting a PPC course I had no trouble shooting with the hammer down.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,385 Senior Member
    I've seen plenty of revolvers fail. On the whole, I think autos are a lot more reliable than revolvers. Revolvers are great handguns, but back in the day when I was a LEO and revolvers were the issue, whenever we got new revolvers, there was a substantial fail rate that requires sending them back to Smith. Some times it was simple like the extractor being loose and backing out, locking up the thing, sometimes it was more serious. My wife liked a revolver because it didn't have levers or anything else to complicate matters (this was back in the late 1980s). Which has always lead me to believe a revolver is the ideal weapon for people who are not firearm oriented. Simple: point it, pull the trigger at least twice, no de-cocking lever to worry about, no manual safety to consider.

    I've got a number of handguns and only two (IIRC) operate the same way. I've got a Smith 39 (SA/DA) a 1911, an HK P7, a couple of revolvers, a Shield, a Kahr, a PPK-S, and maybe a couple more, and all of these except the first and the last, operate differently.

    If I ever, God forbid, need to use one of these, I don't envision it as a quick draw and shoot situation. If it comes to that, I'm screwed as I dress for concealment, not for gunfighting. I can make each of them ready to shoot in time enough and hopefully accurately enough to do the job, and I'm aware of the gun I'm toting.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,702 Senior Member
    I think that if you're worried about compressed springs being an issue, you don't know how springs really work and what causes them to wear out. Further, all springs in a revolver have some compression in them at all times. It's not full compression, but it's still compression.

    As for revolvers failing, I had one become fully tied up due to an extractor rod backing out and fouling up the system, I've had specs of unburnt powder get under the extractor star and gum up the system, and had a mainspring on a Smith N-frame break in two in storage.

    Bullets can also pull out, tying up the gun, you can get bullets that are too long for the cylinder, improper resizing of the cases can be an issue...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    I change up my carry guns quite often depending on weather, attire, location and mood. While a 4" 1911 is the mainstay of my carry I have others I like from full size like the USP to the little LCP. Even a wheel gun sneaks into a holster on my hip once in a while. I too am of the thought process that as long as you practice regularly with the guns you carry it will not be confusing if needed to defend.
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,572 Senior Member
    Although it has DS/SA operation capability, what drew me to the FNP45 was the 1911-style safety that allows me to cock & lock it; it was exactly what I wanted, besides being ambidextrous. Though admittedly I will carry it safety off, hammer-down most of the time, I like being able to cock & lock it.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    When I first read this I was thinking OVERTHINKING was your problem. But then I realized just why I'm comfortable with all four of my hand guns. I play with them. I play with them for hours. In fact, I play with all my guns. I will dry fire my rifles regularly. I like to feel my triggers. I like to be familiar with them. I like to be familiar with any gun I plan on using to defend myself with. Also even for hunting I will dry fire with my scope crosshairs on an imaginary animal, pointed in a safe direction, of course. I also like to dry fire my S&W revolver double action. I like to hold a bead on an imaginary target. I have done all this so much that it seems automatic with me now and I can switch around with the different guns and I don't get confused on how to use each one and safely. But I will say, it takes a lot of practice and dry firing. And, and another point, I don't have but four hand guns so it's easier for me than if I had 8 or 10 different ones, like some of you. My 1911 and my German Mauser Pistol are very similar. My 469 S&W is different, but that is only two different styles of Semi Auto pistols that I have. Then there's the revolver which is an entirely different animal. But in effect I only have 3 different systems. And the revolver is not hard to keep straight from the other three. Then the practice I do keeps me straight on the rest. No big deal with what I have.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,826 Senior Member
    There are guns you train with and random guns you play with. One issue I have found and seen is mixing grip angles on pistols. My wrists are fused at the correct angle for 1911's,CZ's and normal guns. Say you keep a glock in the nightstand and shoot a 1911. In the dark your muscle memory will be pointing a 1911 at the bad guy and your glock at the ceiling. Watch the shooters on Top Shot cry whenever they have to shoot anything other than what they get paid to shoot. It is fine to mix it up but consistency pays.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
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