A good reason to stay armed

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Replies

  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,825 Senior Member
    topgun wrote: »
    I'm getting too old to run anymore, us old guys must make a stand. Lesson learned for me here, is to never leave those spare mags. out of arms-reach.

    I concur....you get to a point in your life when you just have to plant your feet and root hog or die....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Translation if you please ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    On a more practical note, it's hard to say if a gun necessarily helps in this case or similar cases. Clearly better situational awareness would be required since the group runs up behind him and attacks before he really notices what's going on. Also, at what point can/do you draw and fire your weapon? As others have suggested if you shoot before the assault begins then you just "murdered an unarmed kid". Once the assault starts then it's basically too late because drawing and firing a weapon while trying to defend yourself from half a dozen attackers is less than easy and there's a fair chance you would lose control of the weapon before you got a shot off. Really and truly a dangerous situation. I'd almost say a knife is a better tool in such an altercation.

    Thanks for that expert opinion. I'm sure it comes from your own extensive knowledge and experience in the art of knife fighting. (chuckle)
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,262 Senior Member
    At my age I'll stick with a gun,gave up hand to hand a long time ago!
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    I concur....you get to a point in your life when you just have to plant your feet and root hog or die....
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,465 Senior Member
    Thanks for that expert opinion. I'm sure it comes from your own extensive knowledge and experience in the art of knife fighting. (chuckle)

    I don't know more than 2 people who have 'extensive knowledge and experience' in knife fighting. The ones that do don't talk about it.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Please add me to your list of experts that don't know diddly about knife fighting! !!
    LoL.... that was good.....

    Joke, 99 cent value menu humor
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,825 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Translation if you please ?

    Translation: Similar to..... "You can kill me but you can't scare me...".

    Most of us will arrive (or have arrived) at the point where hobbling for safety is ineffective, are too old/busted up, etc to engage in prolonged fisticuffs....kinda narrowing down the options to "stand and fight"...a firearm, spare ammo , a bad attitude and a mean streak are accommodating to the whole "standing and fighting" thing...friends with guns are even better...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,253 Senior Member
    Speaking of that Memphis supermarket mob- - - - -I travel to Memphis about once a week on business, and either a 1911 or my Polish P-64 always makes the trip with me, along with one or two spare magazines. So far, I haven't felt even a little uncomfortable there, but the potential always exists that I might get caught up in somebody else's tense situation- - - -wrong place/wrong time, etc. Ditto for Birmingham, Knoxville, Nashville, Atlanta, etc.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Good reason to be armed, and to be extremely aware of your surroundings.

    http://www.ky3.com/news/local/raw-video-gang-attacks-couple-in-downtown-springfield/21048998_27886102

    A bunch of freaking thugs decide to harass a girl leaving a club, so her DJ boyfriend goes outside with her. Then this happens.......
    Unbelievable.

    This is one of the most vulnerable times you can find yourself in, when leaving a bar or club late evenings and heading to the parking lot. Even if you're totally innocent and just going to your vehicle, thugs often prey on those people, as being a little tipsy they'er easier targets, and naturally you cannot always be armed.

    In most venues, it's illegal to concealed carry in a bar, so when you're leaving you can be vulnerable. It's illegal here in Texas to carry in a bar.

    I enjoy seeing local rock/blues bands play and so that's a problem. It can of course be address by carrying a pocket pistol even if it's illegal. A decision that can be made by the individual.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,037 Senior Member
    It's legal to carry in GA in a bar, but it's not legal to carry and drink in a bar.

    It's been years since I've been in a bar. Not because I don't like to drink, nor necessarily because I dislike bars, but I live by myself and if I went to a bar, I'd drink, and then have to drive home. I NEVER drink, even a beer, and drive.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Translation: Similar to..... "You can kill me but you can't scare me...".

    Most of us will arrive (or have arrived) at the point where hobbling for safety is ineffective, are too old/busted up, etc to engage in prolonged fisticuffs....kinda narrowing down the options to "stand and fight"...a firearm, spare ammo , a bad attitude and a mean streak are accommodating to the whole "standing and fighting" thing...friends with guns are even better...

    You have described my current situation perfectly. I ain't out running anybody. I am the epitome of that old saw about how one should never pick a fight with an old man. He knows he can't beat you, so he'll just shoot you.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    It's legal to carry in GA in a bar, but it's not legal to carry and drink in a bar.

    It's been years since I've been in a bar. Not because I don't like to drink, nor necessarily because I dislike bars, but I live by myself and if I went to a bar, I'd drink, and then have to drive home. I NEVER drink, even a beer, and drive.

    Hey, even when I was living alone (as I've done for years off an on) I had this thing called a "date" wherein I picked up the gal at her place and we went to see the music, like when we saw Dave Alvin last year.

    But I understand. You've got a better rule than I did, my "2 beer" limit and I mean actually TWO beers, not "a couple beers" meaning four. When I started my serious diet, I went off the beer and yeah, I'd go to bars and drink Diet Coke. And have a good time listening to the music.

    But here in Texas it's still illegal to carry a gun (permit or not) into a bar. So it's a chance to take, a decision to make, do you carry anyway and stay off the booze, or do you go unarmed?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Even if the mob takes me down, I plan to be standing in a pile of empty brass while I take a few of them with me. I'd rather try to survive and take my chances in court than end up a vegetable like some of the victims of mob violence have. Chances are they will think twice about stepping over a body or three to get to me.
    Jerry

    I agree. Knife or gun, regardless, if there's a big crowd, you can't stick or shoot 'em all. But I kinda think that if you DO pull a gun and blow away the closest threat, few others will likely throw themselves into the fray afterward, hoping you're out of bullets.

    Generally, first shots fired, people start running away.

    But I'll counter what Alpha said regardless. You've got to be highly skilled in knife combat to actually defend yourself against more than just a random assault by one drunk guy. A bunch of assailants, you're likely to end up wearing that knife in your own gullet.

    Besides, guns were invented for the sole reason to avoid hand to hand combat. As my Dad would have said, "That's why they make a .45!"

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,656 Senior Member
    You have described my current situation perfectly. I ain't out running anybody. I am the epitome of that old saw about how one should never pick a fight with an old man. He knows he can't beat you, so he'll just shoot you.
    :win:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Good reason to be armed, and to be extremely aware of your surroundings.
    etc.

    Taking a second look at the video, if there was a chance for the gal to get back inside the bar, she should have done so.

    But maybe this wasn't possible? In that case, the boyfriend essentially sacrificed his butt to the thugs, because there's zero way he'd be able to defend his gal from that many.

    As you say, being aware of your surroundings is essential.

    We of course don't know whether the guy had access to a gun, but if he had, the generally accepted strategy would be to keep a reasonable distance and if they "close with you", shoot the nearest guy.

    As Teach said, he'd rather risk being in court than being in an ER. (wayward motorcycles excepted, of course!)

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I have a STUPID question:
    So it is ill+legal to CCW in a bar / Texas, So if you carry concealed, but you do not drink alcohol or get drunk, what is the worry ? That the police or other LE officers will by art of divination single you out and know you carry ?
    I think it is safe to say, remain sober and low key and most likely nobody will find a reason to hassle you.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I have a STUPID question:
    So it is ill+legal to CCW in a bar / Texas, So if you carry concealed, but you do not drink alcohol or get drunk, what is the worry ? That the police or other LE officers will by art of divination single you out and know you carry ?
    I think it is safe to say, remain sober and low key and most likely nobody will find a reason to hassle you.

    Not a stupid question at all... Okay, here's my take on this...

    If you properly conceal-carry then of course nobody's gonna know. My only problem is that if you ever need to use the gun (say, returning to your car late night and a mugger tries it) then you might be in some hot water explaining how you were carrying. That's my only concern but it's not substantive for these reasons:

    1- Houston cops are gonna politely look the other way if you're involved in a self defense shoot and are carrying leaving the bar. Maybe in other jurisdictions you'd be hassled but not here.
    2- Technically you aren't breaking the law because you're outside the tavern and were not caught carrying in that bar, and of course you aren't compelled to testify against yourself by admitting "Yeah, I had the gun in my pocket all night, even in the bar." Duh.
    3- As Teach often points out, better to be judged by 12 and so on.

    And understand, I DO make a distinction between "having a beer" and "being drunk" because I DO carefully manage my intake when driving (I didn't do that when I was younger and many of us are equally guilty at that). So... I certainly would NOT carry if I were going to tie one on. But it's maybe been 25 years since I've actually been drunk in public and no, It's not gonna happen again.

    Drinking to excess and carrying? Stupid. Drinking maybe 2 beers in an evening and carrying? A decision to make.

    And you're perfectly correct that staying sober (or nearly sober, like 1-2 beers) and it's unlikely someone in the bar will hassle you. Fact being, I don't go to those sorts of bars anymore regardless. But a nice blues/rock club with good management normally ensures that drunk jerks aren't gonna be there -- jerks search out bars where they can be jerks, and if the bar tosses them out, they'll look for "easier" places to be jerks in.

    My concern isn't being hassled in the bar. It's being jumped by a mugger when going to my car at 1:30am. Which is a legit concern and a reason that some people might choose to "pocket carry" anyway, laws against carrying in a bar notwithstanding.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    As I get older, CCW and the credentials that allow it are very important to me and my safety, so I am not doing anything patently stupid or intentional to get my status revoked, I limit my activivities to stay out of trouble, and even then I have had close calls, and enough really positive post personal defense encounters with LE.
    It really chaps my hide to hear pork chop preachers pontificate against CCW saying defense with firearms is evil or wicked, they can pound sand same as those that preach scripturaly endorsed total abstaining from alcohol.

    AA makes perfect sense, however, not everyone is an alcoholic.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Doc, I laughed at "pork chop preachers" -- I've never heard that one, terrific!

    Those who preach biblical avoidance of alcohol, I always remind them about the water-to-wine miracle at the wedding. Not exactly grape juice, eh?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I have heard many off the wall total abstinance theories, old testament quotes, these folks neatly skate around the miracle at Cana, the turning of water into wine at the wedding feast, and in spite of the statement by the feast director, many still insist it was grape juice.

    The anti gunners are like that, all emotional hype and no facts.
    You will shoot the wrong person or get shot with your own gun, or you will get mad and run amuck and over react to a petty slap and shoot someone.

    Religous Zealots and anti gunners have one thing in common, they are confounded by facts.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Religous Zealots and anti gunners have one thing in common, they are confounded by facts.

    Man, is that so very true!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,802 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Nationally, yes. Locally, no

    Depends on where locally is. Around here, no way. They'd give him a medal if he pulled a gun on the thugs. But in some of our more liberal cities the media would be calling for his head.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Oddly enough,in those bastions of North Eastern liberality, the convictions of otherwise honest people involved in self defense shootings with very rare exceptions has almost always been for illegal possesion of an unlicensed unregistered handgun.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Oddly enough,in those bastions of North Eastern liberality, the convictions of otherwise honest people involved in self defense shootings with very rare exceptions has almost always been for illegal possesion of an unlicensed unregistered handgun.

    That's the sort of technicality that tends to bother me regarding carrying concealed in a bar.

    But as I've said, I enjoy listening to local (and touring) blues & rock bands and thus far I've not been able to persuade them to stop by my home and play privately for me, so I kinda have to go to the bar or small nightclub to see them, as I did Dave Alvin twice. And darn it, these bars also don't have their concerts at 1pm but instead the music (from the primary band) usually starts at 10pm so the show's over at maybe 1am. And then I'm headed to the parking lot.

    I realize that many here have said they simply won't put themselves in such an environment regardless, which I appreciate, as it's a choice to see or not to see these music groups. But when Marcia Ball or Dave Alvin or whomever else shows up on tour, hey, I'm gonna try to see them.

    Hence being in the untenable situation of heading to a parking lot at 1am (and sober). At which point, I need to have chosen whether to carry that .380 or .357 compact and have it in my pocket, and therefore that I technically broke the law when I was inside the bar with the gun.

    But as I said, if there is an incident, it's unlikely that the Houston cops would even give a second's consideration to the question of why was I armed when leaving the bar. This of course assumes that the incident was a "good shoot" and that I (and my girlfriend) were attacked or an attempted mugging or whatever, and that I was 100% in the clear regarding the actual incident.

    With that point in mind, I don't think there would be the slightest problem. And as I said also, "technically" I wouldn't be breaking the law at the time of the incident, as I was in the parking lot and therefore not "inside a bar" with the gun. As to the question "Well, how did you acquire the gun before you got to your car?" I don't think it would be asked.

    Here's why: A couple weeks ago here in Houston, 4 robbers came into a night club at closing to grab the cash and rob the patrons. This was a sort of local tavern, not a rough reputation place at all. And one of the patrons, who was carrying, took out his pistol and shot and killed TWO of the thugs and the other two were held by patrons till the cops came. Now of course this "hero" (as the bar owner described him) was a regular there and known as a good dude, but here he was, illegally carrying a weapon inside the bar.

    What did the cops do? Not a damn thing. The guy wasn't arrested or charged or anything except thanked by the Houston cops for putting down two bad guys and helping arrest the other two (the 4 thugs had held up a number of bars recently). Zero charges were filed and nothing negative was said by the authorities regarding this very illegal "carrying concealed in a bar" offense.

    Which is why I think that IF I were to be involved in an incident on my way to my car late night and if I were to be carrying, even though logically it would mean I'd have earlier been illegally carrying in the bar, nothing would be done. This of course assumes that the incident was totally "okay". For example, if the incident were different -- say, I got into a yelling match with another patron, we were both drunk, and then it escalated into a display and maybe shoot, then yeah, I think I'd be in some hot water.

    But defending myself legally against a thug attack? Nope.

    But you're right, Doc, it's these technicalities that tend to trip you up.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Famous case: Bernard Goetz vs the City of New York,
    The idiot turned himself in, he would never had been caught if he had not turned himself in.
    He was not charged in the shooting, the criminal charges were gun charges only.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • derrickdunn70derrickdunn70 New Member Posts: 2 New Member
    This is true some peoples hands are far more dangerous than a knife, especially if there is no training with the knife.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    This is true some peoples hands are far more dangerous than a knife, especially if there is no training with the knife.

    Good example of a false statement, even an unskilled defender can get lucky against an unskilled attacker, you let the attacker run into your edged weapon and let his own momentum be his own demise.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Good example of a false statement, even an unskilled defender can get lucky against an unskilled attacker, you let the attacker run into your edged weapon and let his own momentum be his own demise.

    Possibly true, but I'd rather "get lucky" by having the attacker run into my .45 bullet and let its momentum be his demise. ha ha

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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