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• KSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member

  October 2014 #2

  Good read! Thanks for posting that up Jay!

  The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY

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• Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,074 Senior Member

  October 2014 #3

  Mr. Ayoob has been putting out good information to us end users for some time now. Always an interesting read.

  Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5

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• jaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,975 Senior Member

  October 2014 #4

  Mr. Ayoob writings have always been to the point with no B.S. Everyone should read his " In The Gravest Extreme "
  
  Thanks for the post.
  
  JAY

  THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT

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• samzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member

  October 2014 #5

  Thanks! Ayoob's one of the best, and maybe the most realistic and sensible.

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• BAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member

  October 2014 #6

  Good article. Love reading his stuff. I swear he contributes to almost every gun related site there is. Except this one. FYI, you can ask him questions directly related to self defense at GlockTalk.com. I think you have to register first.

  "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."
  
  -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician

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• Jayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,029 Senior Member

  October 2014 #7

  Mas has visited here in the past....prior to the last system crash I believe....Don't think we did anything to run him off....I think all it would take is an invite....

  Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"

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• Big Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member

  October 2014 #8

  I used to really look forward to new Issues of American Handgunner Magazines and turn to his articles first, Pre-Internet days.
  
  Good common sense writer with a wealth of experience under his belt, whose advice you can take to the bank.
  
  And I like like him from what I garnered from his articles and what I've seen of him on a TV SD show. In the same sense as you can get a feel fer folks on this forum by the posts they make.

  It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
  Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
  I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!

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• bisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member

  October 2014 #9

  I think Mas Ayoob stays very busy as an expert witness. He was called as an expert witness in a local case here a few years ago, and this is a pretty small 'city.'

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• DoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member

  October 2014 #10

  Massad Ayoob has forged legal defense precedents in Court, such as proving a broken bottle is indeed a deadly weapon warranting the use of deadly force, also cases where someone wielded a cell phone as if it were a handgun with bad results, if not for the expertise of Ayoob, many more innocent people would be serving long prisons terms for murder.
  Not all Lawyers know how to defend cases of personal defense.
  
  Sometimes a Lawyer has convinced an innocent party to plead guilty to manslaughter when in reality it was a case of self defense, this and much more is what Ayoob brings to the table in his books.

  "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996

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• LMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member

  October 2014 #11

  Pretty sure he also developed the 21 foot rule.

  “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”
  

  
  NRA Endowment Member
  

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• DoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member

  October 2014 #12

  I know he did extensive research and had experience with distances involved in attacks with edged weapons and he debunked many myths about the perceived danger of those attacks, some people (prosecutors) believed that lethal force was not always warranted in a knife attack.
  
  I do not recall Massad using the term "21foot rule" however perhaps I just do not remember.
  
  The theory being disparity of force, if attacked with a knife, a handgun = greater force, hence a disparity of force, not equal force, Massad proved this theory false , an attack with a knife can be deadly and can be met with deadly force, ie a handgun.
  
  His statements included morgue PMs and the damage a knife or broken bottle or other weapons can inflict and why defense with a firearm is not greater force in a personal defense scenario.

  "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996

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• breamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,519 Senior Member

  October 2014 #13

  The "21 foot rule" came about from information developed by Utah Police Sgt. Dennis Tueller, hence it's other name: the Tueller Drill. The drill came about from Tueller's research into how fast a man with a knife can cover 7 yds, coming from his experience as an instructor at Gunsite where a standard drill was to engage a target at 7 yds. 1.5 seconds was considered "passing." The drill was the practice to put Tueller's ideas into place.
  
  http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm
  
  Ayoob's mainly acted as an advocate of the "rule" and as a court-approved expert witness for the defense in these situations.
  
  http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Explaining+the+deadly+force+decision%3A+the+opportunity+factor.-a011549909

  Overkill is underrated.

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• Gene L Senior Member Posts: 11,823 Senior Member

  October 2014 #14

  I was a LE Firearms Instructor and we taught the 21 foot rule. IIRC, this applied with the gun drawn. Saw it in live training and remember being surprised.

  Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  

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• DoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member

  October 2014 #15

  I don't remember mention of the 21 foot rule in LE training, perhaps my mind was wandering much like Homer Simpson, so I missed it, I do recall training to consider an attack with an edged weapon as a deadly attack and to treat it as such, to be met with deadly force as per the NYS penal code.

  "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996

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• snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member

  October 2014 #16

  Good stuff there for sure. What I take out of this is that you can practice scenario after scenario but when it comes down to Rock and Roll time, every incident is at least a little different and what saves the survivors is their thinking and reaction to the situation. Not planning so much as thinking on their feet along with a little luck or a bunch of luck.
  
  Edited to Add: Oh yeah, being a good shot would also help I would think.

  Daddy, what's an enabler?
  Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

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• DoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member

  October 2014 #17

  You know what saved me a few times?
  What Magnum called "that little voice" many times the hair on the back of my neck and a premonition of danger, and I would unlimber and make ready.

  "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996

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• KSDeputy Member Posts: 55 Member

  November 2014 #18

  I met him once when he came to our courthouse to testify. Nice guy, all the guys were crowded around him. I shook his hand and went on with my job, which was protecting the courthouse.

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• DoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member

  November 2014 #19

  I always thought it was secure the perimeter, property, protect people / public trust.... etc

  "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996

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