Red Team/Blue Team nonsense

135

Replies

  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Thank you Cali!

    "Choose the form of the destructor..." - doesn't matter if its the Sta-Puft Marshmallow Man or Godzilla, its still a "distructor". Choose your slavery America, choose your slavery.

    I don't have to choose my slavery mode, zorba. I've already "sold my soul" to the Republican party, lo these many years ago. Met at a crossroads, we did, I had to slice my arm and drop blood on the document (this was way before e-signatures) and Karl Rove disappeared in a puff of black smoke! I've got no real regrets except that he also promised to teach me how to play blues guitar and didn't.

    Or maybe that was the next crossroads over, where the blues-for-your-soul special booth was set up? Been years ago, it's kinda hazy now.

    But next thing I remember, there I was in the voting booth, making my mark for "Barry Goldwater" in 1964, my first soul-selling vote of many to come.

    To bad I'd not met Cali before this. But hey....

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Here you go Sam.
    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?21751-Civil-Asset-Forfiture
    You gotta read all the threads to understand all the references.

    Well, no. I saw "asset forfeiture" and skipped over. I'll often skip threads that either don't interest me or about which I have no connection, like the black powder stuff or reloading, or AR builds. Not that they aren't just fine for some, not my own cuppa tea. Likewise questions about rebuilding a **** or getting my assets seized. It's not that I consider such threads useless, just that they're not of much use to me.

    But Cali seems fixated on bad cops stealing stuff. I'm certain that there are bad cops. It's just that where he lives there seem to be hordes of them, lurking beneath the woodpile. I can myself go for days and days without a corrupt cop asking for a bribe. Just lucky, I guess, that they've all moved up to where Cali lives.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Not a Bible thumper. And I feel perfectly fine being a Republican. etc etc

    Gene, I gotta say that this posting really set me back and gave me to think a lot. I'm pretty much in agreement with you about many of the things you list in this post.

    We all know that zorba, despite his smartness and being a pretty good dude, and having a great sense of humor, is also a bit over-sensitive about organized religion. And I do see this influence, a rather pushy evangelical approach, to much of conservative politics these day, and it's the single one thing that tends to turn me off. That, and an almost rabid abhorrence to abortions. (I regret the overreliance on abortion as the answer to problems -- birth control prior to conception is lots smarter, safer, cheaper, and has less moral implications, but we're not debating birth control here).

    I often speak (as you all know) as a "mainstream" Christian, a pretty solid and modestly faithful Episcopalian. So I am okay with gay marriage, homosexuals in general, birth control, abortion if absolutely necessary, and other tenets. This is just MY personal (and hopefully prayerful) stance on these things and here isn't the place to debate the merits of such.

    If you want to see the typical sort of general liberal-ish brand of Episcopalian, you need only look at the Fox commentator Juan Williams. He's a lifelong Episcopalian and very active in the church, very typical of the educated, upscale, yet liberal type of Episcopalian that's prevalent along the East coast. And you couldn't find a more decent and kind man anywhere. But he's liberal, I'm conservative, and yet we fit comfortably under the Episcopal tent.

    I do feel that there is too much evangelical, "bible-truther" influence on conservatives, but that's my opinion, too.

    I however also feel insulted that too many very liberal sorts tend to be gleeful about their atheism and ride that horse too much, same as the "bible thumpers" on the other end of the spectrum.

    Anyway, kind of like Gene here, I'm not a very rabid conservative, I suppose. I certainly see the need for government help and aid for the poor and needy. I am okay with governmental funded health care. Things like that.

    My principal problems with big govt isn't that it exists -- as I see it, in this modern society, we do need a powerful central government. My problem is that it's either misused or misspent -- too much waste and corruption and inside deals. My general feelings about the government are very much in line with the ideas of Teddy R. His principal concern wasn't with the size of the govt but the misuse of it.

    Some people distrust the government same as they distrust the cops. Fine. But I don't.

    For example, I've got every reason to dislike cops -- I was, after all, a "genuine" hippie with all the associated trimmings, and as a young guy, got rousted quite a few times. And occasionally, pushed around. But I was also being argumentative and provocative and very much had an "in your face" attitude, too.

    But in years to follow, I've had almost no reasons to distrust or fear cops or otherwise dislike them. And although I'm certain that there are corrupt and nasty cops, I've not met them for many years.

    Same for government. I see inept government, I see poor management, I see wasteful and sloppy "gummint work" but I don't see the "alien in the woodpile" that some do.

    I'm also not a conspiracy freak either.

    Some folks believe that "the government" (Obama, the cops, the Feebs, the IRS, whatever) is out to get them and they're best to be hiding away in some remote spot, isolated, guns ready, waiting for their own special intervention to begin. Those folks, I tend to pity. Paranoia feeds upon itself.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,846 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I disagree. That money buys advertisements, pays for campaign tour buses, and pays for staff to call voters and do all kinds of other stuff to get a candidate elected. Those are legitimate functions of a political campaign and it takes money to do that.

    What gets me is that the voters actually believe half of the that they are fed on those stump speeches, flyers, and advertisements. I bet that half the idiots that hate ACA in my state will actually vote for the Democratic candidates for US Senate and Governor here in Michigan on Tuesday. Both of these candidates were Congressmen and voted yes for the ACA. Most voters are too ignorant to recognize it.

    The reason the money is so effective for a candidate is because the voters are so easily manipulated by the ads that the money buys. Our voters are ignorant, low information fools. That is the fundamental issue. If the voters actually engaged in some critical thinking from time to time, no amount of advertising or phone calling (in other words, money) is going to sway them.

    The issue I have is that there is always a quid pro quo in exchange for the money. Everyone takes it, because as you mentioned it is needed for the various legitimate functions of getting elected. In the end the person who wins is always far more beholden to the donors who filled their campaign coffers than the citizens who pulled the lever in their favor.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,370 Senior Member
    Maybe I'm different, but I largely ignore campaign commercials. Every once in a while, one will stand out (Joni Ernst, for example) but it wouldn't sway me. I voted in GA long before most of the late commercials came out. True, an absence of commercials is something I notice as kind of background noise. I can't ever remember being influenced by a political commercial.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,379 Senior Member
    The issue I have is that there is always a quid pro quo in exchange for the money. Everyone takes it, because as you mentioned it is needed for the various legitimate functions of getting elected. In the end the person who wins is always far more beholden to the donors who filled their campaign coffers than the citizens who pulled the lever in their favor.
    Exactly. Those big money corporations don't get to vote and those big money individual donors still only get their one vote. If the voters that actually keep these people in office held their politicians accountable for the special favors given to donors, we wouldn't have a problem at all.

    Some of that already does happen to a certain extent though. If candidate A is taking money from the NRA and candidate B is taking money from the AFL-CIO, it does tell me something about them.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 20,075 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    Libertarians /Independents are basically Republicans that like to smoke Pot.
    Although I don't smoke pot - there is a certain amount of truth to this. You could say Libertarians/Independents are basically Republicans that think the state should stay out of people's lives as much as possible.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 20,075 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    We all know that Zorba, despite his smartness and being a pretty good dude, and having a great sense of humor, is also a bit over-sensitive about organized religion. And I do see this influence, a rather pushy evangelical approach, to much of conservative politics these day, and it's the single one thing that tends to turn me off. That, and an almost rabid abhorrence to abortions. (I regret the overreliance on abortion as the answer to problems -- birth control prior to conception is lots smarter, safer, cheaper, and has less moral implications, but we're not debating birth control here).

    I often speak (as you all know) as a "mainstream" Christian, a pretty solid and modestly faithful Episcopalian. So I am okay with gay marriage, homosexuals in general, birth control, abortion if absolutely necessary, and other tenets. This is just MY personal (and hopefully prayerful) stance on these things and here isn't the place to debate the merits of such.
    Sam, I wish there were more like you. The Christianists/Dominionists need to be called out by other Christians - non-Christians have limited clout in this issue. I have a feeling that there is a silent majority of Christians who feel just like you do - I want to hear more from them instead of fanatics that want to take us back to the twelfth century.

    Yea, organized religion, especially organized monotheism; is a sore spot for me - it has been since I was old enough to recognize it for the evil that it is. Religion/Spirituality should be a personal thing. I see all kinds of things every single day that I disagree with, some virulently. Some, or maybe even many, of my disagreements with many things are even in agreement with Christians (does that sentence make sense?)! But I'm not trying to legislate my opinions on others, blah, blah, blah. :blah:
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 20,075 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Has ANYONE on here changed their position on ANYTHING or who they will or have voted for because of this and similar threads? I seriously doubt it.

    We do all have one thing in common..........we all love guns :guns::guns:, albeit not the same calibers/makes/models, that gentlemen I think we can agree on. :group: :group:

    Well Chief, these kinds of discussions give me things to think about. I enjoy well reasoned discussions with people of varying opinions, even - maybe even especially - those who differ from mine. When the conversations don't devolve into emotions too much - and we're ALL guilty of this, we're only human - they're educational.

    Now go shoot your .270 and enjoy the conversations! :jester:
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    But Cali seems fixated on bad cops stealing stuff. I'm certain that there are bad cops. It's just that where he lives there seem to be hordes of them, lurking beneath the woodpile. I can myself go for days and days without a corrupt cop asking for a bribe. Just lucky, I guess, that they've all moved up to where Cali lives.
    So like I said Sam, you have to read the thread to understand the reference. You have now completely missed the meaning of the reference twice. But hey that's okay, it doesn't interest you. I just thought I would help you catch up, but you can keep goin like your goin. It is all good with me.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    So where's the OP? Stir the pot and disappear- - - - - -sounds like a liberal :troll: to me!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    "So where's the OP? Stir the pot and disappear- - - - - -sounds like a liberal to me!"
    Jerry

    It really is true, you gotta stir crap to make it burn right, I saw that in Iraq. Female soldier was trying to burn waste in a steel bucket that came from/slid out from a plywood port a john , but was just pouring diesel and letting it burn and coming back wondering why it didn't burn off. Well, a NCO came over and showed her how that crap should be stirred as it burns, you gotta stick with it.


    Don't know why that came to mind, except it reminded me of the crap-stirrers on some of these threads. They start a stink and wonder off.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Chief, there is more stirring than many realize. Here in NC, the Dem PAC has recruited and backed a Dem candidate to run against an incumbent (3 previous terms) Rep sheriff to try to pull a few extra voters to send Kay Pagan back to DC. It sounds racist what I am getting ready say but it is true. The incumbent was running unopposed because he has done such a good job many middle of the road Dems support him and unseating him is not really seen as being possible. Well, somebody comes in and pull a retired senior deputy from under said sheriff to run against him. The deputy is black and runs on the community needs this and youth need that platform basically saying the current sheriff doesn't see how help youth who might go down the wrong road helps prevent crime down the road. Most here believe that the deputy is being used and his campaign is being steered by those who want to get any extra minority voters they canto turn out knowing they will likely vote Straight "D". The incumbent will more than likely run away with the election but Kay Pagan gets an extra few hundred votes she needs to keep her senate seat. In 2008 the Dems pulled everything they could to unseat Elizabeth Dole with then an unknown Kay Pagan with Jug Ears and his "D's" pushing her and paying the bills.

    Voters here in NC who vote 3rd party are not just helping Pagan, they are voting for a pot head drunk who is a joke ... the Rep Tillis isn't much better than Pagan but atleast it will cut an automatic vote for Jug Ears crappe' and help send Harry Reid back to the floor from his big chair up front. It seems now you vote for who you WANT in the primary but when it comes November and the General Election rolls around you need to also vote who you DO NOT want in office.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    There is no way in <%$# I am voting for Thom Tillis. As soon as he and the Repubs. took over the NC house they tried to steal the Charlotte Douglas Airport from the city and place it under the control of the state. They created a problem that did not exist and provided a solution that was nothing but good old boy politics. How is this conservative? This is the kind of crap that costs Republicans their seats. They behave no better than Dems when elected. We as a constituency elect them to shrink Gov. Co. They get power and grow it. Next he has spearheaded a toll road expansion of I77. It will cost an estimated $14 one way 20 miles to use the toll road. It will be locked in with a 50 year contract, and was done largely in secrecy. The rates are not disclosed until after the contract is signed. How is this conservative? Why in the world would anyone expect a different form of politics at the national level. Republicans wonder why their base gets disenfranchised.:roll:

    If voting for a third party, or writing in, is a vote for Hagan so be it. Tillis in no better. He is nothing but a liberal calling himself a republican, and is getting wealthy with his cronies. I will be writing in. I will not vote for someone I know to be a big government statist.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Sam, I wish there were more like you. etc

    Well, thanks, but I didn't do nuttin. I'm just a pretty mainstream Episcopalian with a fairly liberal "personal rights" slant but a very conservative liturgical slant. I really enjoy the choral liturgy, incense, sanctus bells, genuflection (crossing yourself) and so on.

    I fondly remember my old girlfriend, a pretty devout Roman Catholic, and I took her to a high mass at my church. She felt right at home, same essential prayers (except none for the pope's well being), and music, and all the same liturgy. Then it came time for the communion service and hey! a female priest stood there to perform the mass! Later I asked her if she expected the earth to split open and swallow us all up. We laughed about that a lot.

    But I've known gay priests (still in the closet) and for some reason, as a plain layperson, became a friend and confidant. I simply don't care about such things.

    Anyway, this isn't a discussion of religion and I do try to respect other beliefs, so long as they don't try to cram their ideas down my throat, thank you.

    Later.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    So where's the OP? Stir the pot and disappear- - - - - -sounds like a liberal :troll: to me!
    Jerry

    Ha! Made me laugh at that one...

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Hell, watching those Brits shout down/ridicule each other is bad enough. House of Commons?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,946 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    That's not what republicans said after the last two presidential elections. Libertarians/conservatives that refused to vote for McCain or Romney are still blamed for Obama winning. I'd say more than half of the members of this forum have stated this very thing. The GOP and its supporters cannot get their heads around the fact that both candidates were NOT conservatives and not worth wasting a vote. You'd think after two elections, that the GOP would grasp the fact that my vote (and millions like me) is valuable and won't be cast simply because of an "R" after a name. But we are talking about the Republican Party. This is the same party that is smearing Rand Paul for his libertarian leanings.



    Bush is different than Kerry. Not better, just different. Bush grew the federal government exponentially. Bush bailed out failed businesses. Bush said he’d vote for the AWB renewal. Bush incarcerated Americans without charges. Kerry (democrat) wouldn't have invaded Iraq. Kerry (likely) would’ve done the same crap Obama has pulled. I don't see a real difference between the two, except their causes.

    That's a matter of opinion. If you can't see that Bush is better than lying ass Kerry, in my opinion you don't get it. Yeah, Bush 43, George W, however you call him, wasn't a classic conservative, that's for sure, but he didn't exactly have the support of he deserved as president. And the media crucified him daily.

    Bush was a man of his word. What he said he would do he did, what he did he said in the open. He had a much more transparent administration than Mr. Transparency, Nubummer does. And Kerry? What a joke. He can't even be a decent Sec. State, much less PREZ!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,946 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Has ANYONE on here changed their position on ANYTHING or who they will or have voted for because of this and similar threads? I seriously doubt it.

    We do all have one thing in common..........we all love guns :guns::guns:, albeit not the same calibers/makes/models, that gentlemen I think we can agree on. :group: :group:

    Probably not, but this is FUN!!!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,946 Senior Member
    There is no way in <%$# I am voting for Thom Tillis. As soon as he and the Repubs. took over the NC house they tried to steal the Charlotte Douglas Airport from the city and place it under the control of the state. They created a problem that did not exist and provided a solution that was nothing but good old boy politics. How is this conservative? This is the kind of crap that costs Republicans their seats. They behave no better than Dems when elected. We as a constituency elect them to shrink Gov. Co. They get power and grow it. Next he has spearheaded a toll road expansion of I77. It will cost an estimated $14 one way 20 miles to use the toll road. It will be locked in with a 50 year contract, and was done largely in secrecy. The rates are not disclosed until after the contract is signed. How is this conservative? Why in the world would anyone expect a different form of politics at the national level. Republicans wonder why their base gets disenfranchised.:roll:

    If voting for a third party, or writing in, is a vote for Hagan so be it. Tillis in no better. He is nothing but a liberal calling himself a republican, and is getting wealthy with his cronies. I will be writing in. I will not vote for someone I know to be a big government statist.

    You miss the point. You guys are looking at the short term. The deal here is taking back the Senate, putting a damper on Harry Reid, and knocking Obummer's legs out from under him. The bottom line is that it matter's not if the Republican running for office is any different or any better than his Democrat counter part. What matters is not so much winning the battle, but winning the war. And we win the war if we have a Republican Majority in the Senate as well as in the House.

    As for this type of argument or rather discussion not changing people's opinion? I disagree. This does change some people's opinion. It won't change mine or yours, but there are those we refer to as low information voters that wouldn't know a true issue if it fell on their head. There's a lot of them out there. The idea here is not so much to change their opinion, but to give them an opinion. If we don't put up arguments then all they will hear is the propaganda of the left.

    And I will go even farther out on a limb with this and say that there are several of us here that were in those shoes at one time. When we went to school whether that was high school, trade school, or academic college, most of us had a naive mind set in the beginning if we had a mind set at all. Whether we had a factual opinion or not, we didn't really understand where we were coming from. Most of us learned through living. Then some of us had no opinion and never put an effort into thinking about Politics. If we did have any political opinion it was probably based in propaganda we had heard that sounded good to your young minds or we probably didn't have a clue at all until we were about 30 years old. But some of us were lucky enough to find true mentors who we learned from. Or maybe we learned from several people, but we learned our core political beliefs, we weren't born with them. And some people never really acquired any real solid core political beliefs.

    There are a minority of truly educated smart young people, I'm talking high school or early college age, who form solid political ideology when their young. Most just heard some professor or other person they knew that influenced their early political thinking or lack of it, and they have no solid thought out opinion.

    Some of us were lucky enough to learn some basic truths and form solid political opinions. Then some fell victim to a professor who filled their heads with leftist propaganda. Some's parents might have lived through the depression and believed that the Democratic party was their savior and put this in our heads. Some learned to equate the working man's success in life to the Democratic party.

    The bottom line is there's a whole lot of people out there that are clueless and some will actually learn from arguments like this if they're receptive. The way I look at it is discussion or debate can give people a choice in political thought that have no real base and are not truly committed to any ideology. These people are easily swayed by propaganda and campaign retoric. These are people that are reachable. So this type of discussion is not an entire waste of words.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,221 Senior Member
    I got a message for all you straight ticket "D" and "R" voters:

    10710992_809303665793575_2198757849842206429_n_zpsf2988237.jpg
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,837 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    Libertarians /Independents are basically Republicans that like to smoke Pot.

    Horsesqueeze. I consider myself a libertarian, and I think anyone that smokes pot is a moron. But I also think that people should have the freedom to be jibbering idoits.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,370 Senior Member
    I'm not a fan of "It's all about me" voting. Those who are seem to enjoy bumper-sticker politics.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    We have ONE who changed his mind thus far so cpj ................for my question.

    :win: :win: :win:

    May not make you feel any better about our current political scene, but might bring a smile to yer face, anyhow. :tooth:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,846 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Exactly. Those big money corporations don't get to vote and those big money individual donors still only get their one vote. If the voters that actually keep these people in office held their politicians accountable for the special favors given to donors, we wouldn't have a problem at all.

    Some of that already does happen to a certain extent though. If candidate A is taking money from the NRA and candidate B is taking money from the AFL-CIO, it does tell me something about them.

    Yes, to a degree you can pick and choose candidates who's sponsors you agree with more, but the bottom line is they're all taking money from someone and in most cases the who and how much is not public information or is laundered through outside spending groups. I'm not naive enough we can ever remove the money (and the influence it buys) from politics, but we should at least make them all wear NASCAR like jackets with the names/logos of their biggest contributors so at least we know who's interests we're voting for.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,946 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    I often speak (as you all know) as a "mainstream" Christian, a pretty solid and modestly faithful Episcopalian. So I am okay with gay marriage, homosexuals in general, birth control, abortion if absolutely necessary, and other tenets. This is just MY personal (and hopefully prayerful) stance on these things and here isn't the place to debate the merits of such.


    I'm an old time Conservative Episcopalian. And I can't say I'm ok with Gay Marriage, however I have compassion for Homosexuals, I just leave that issue between them and GOD. I don't judge them. I leave them be with their own life and decisions. I have to worry about my own life and that is a full time job.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 20,075 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I just leave that issue between them and GOD. I don't judge them. I leave them be with their own life and decisions. I have to worry about my own life and that is a full time job.
    And ****, that's the way it should be. MYOB, and let others mind theirs! Good on you!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Yes, to a degree you can pick and choose candidates who's sponsors you agree with more, etc etc

    To a great degree that's pretty true. But influencing a legislator is how it's done, via lobbyists, and it's been that way since Imperial Roman times and likely earlier.

    But you, alpha, and most all of us, are members of some various trade or professional or issue organization, such as the NRA, the National Federation of Teachers, maybe a plumber's or electrician's trade org or union, or we support things like National Right to Life or Audubon Society or whatever.

    And each of these orgs maintains an office in the state capital or in DC and tries to influence legislation favorable to that group. Ordinary, individual citizens can write letters to their state senator or whomever and urge support (or defeat) of pending legislation but that's one voice, even if the legislator pays attention, because there will be an opposing voice on the other side, writing his or her letter, too.

    Maybe we know personally our city council rep or a county commissioner or whomever in the most close and smallest jurisdiction, but when things rise to the statewide or federal level, individual voices are simply not heard.

    Which is why we contribute money to whatever org we're allied with, and that org then works to get favorable legislation passed.

    I used to be an "intern" (read: cheap labor) with the Missouri State Trucker's Assn and worked one summer in the Mo state capital of Jefferson City. This was before the internet and I researched the traffic safety background on a pending bill before the state legislature.

    This was a bill to make Missouri state laws uniform with those of Illinois and a few other surrounding states, back when the Interstate highway system was really beginning to work nicely. Semis had a length limit on the trailer in Missouri that was 2 feet shorter than those of surrounding states (I forget the length).

    So an interstate hauler passing through Missouri had to lay over at some depot, get his load transferred to a shorter trailer, then he could use the Missouri interstate (mostly I-70). Naturally this cost too much so trucking companies simply went either north or south of the state and skipped Missouri totally. This deprived the state of tax revenue on licenses as well as income from the trucker buying fuel, food, and truck stop prostitutes (just kidding!).

    The shorter trailer law was supported by the Teamsters because, guess who did the unloading and loading? Yeah, Jimmy Hoffa. The Mo. Truckers' Assoc was a trade group supported by trucking firms.

    So one of the big things was that the law allowing 2' longer trailers was being attacked by "citizen groups" (actually funded by the Hoffa boys) for being unsafe and allowing these longer trailers would unleash havoc upon the roads, zillions of little children and mommies crushed by them while the driver laughed and smoked a big fat cigar like a backroom Chicago Democrat.

    My job was to research all the accident reports from Missouri and compare them with reports from surrounding states where the longer trailers were used. I then had to draw up statistical reports and graphs so the lobbyists could visit the state legislators and have visual aids to persuade them to vote yes on the pending bill. My carefully researched findings were that there was zero statistically difference between accident rate, and injury rate if an accident, for longer trailers vs shorter.

    Reason I got this job was that I had the summer free, I knew how to create statistical info reports from my science education, and I knew a couple of bigwig local Republicans who got me the job. I didn't make much money but I learned a helluva lot about real, inside, lobbying and how politics works in the real world. Later I milked this into becoming a campaign staffer for a mayoral candidate (he won!) and a couple of state senator campaigns (1W, 1L) and have then worked on numerous other campaign staffs. Wow do you learn a lot of dirt!

    Another guy working with me worked up a big report on the economic losses the state was having and projected the gains if the law were passed.

    So he and I put together a booklet, all nice and shiny, easy reading, with plenty of charts and graphs in the appendix to prove our case.

    You gotta understand... let's imagine a conscientious and honest state legislator from a farming community. He/she might be very cognizant of issues related to farming but clueless about trucking and highway safety. We're not talking bribes here, but influence above board and clean. Our lobby folks would go in to chat with the rep and bring copies of our booklet, and give a spiel. On the other side, the Teamsters apparently didn't do a very good job, and just howled "danger danger will robinson" but had no facts to back it up. The law passed.

    This is an example of the good that lobbying firms can do -- they help educate the representative in areas that the rep is ignorant of. In this case it wasn't a bunch of voters directly backing a bill, but different professional and trade orgs doing the pushing and persuading. In the case of, say, the NRA, they can show precisely how NRA votes helped defeat a candidate or elect another. This makes the rep sit up and listen.

    I think I told this story before but it's a good illustration as to how legit lobbying is done. And it works.

    What we need to do, of course, is to keep electing fairly responsible and modestly honest reps, and then we can use our influence upon them, via whatever org we belong to, to influence them.

    An imperfect system but it does work okay. Lobbyists aren't normally the slimy toves that are usually portrayed in movies or TV. Some are, of course. But in fact, if a lobbyist lies to a senator or rep, his name is mud and his reputation is sunk. Good lobbyists may pressure and push for a bill's passage but they are ruined if they do so via a lie. Such as "Senator Jones is backing us on this!" and all it takes is a phone call to find out that's a lie.

    But your idea about the Nascar jackets? Superb!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 20,075 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    slimy toves

    That's either "Slimy Toads" or "Slithy Toves" - take yer pick! :tooth:
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    That's either "Slimy Toads" or "Slithy Toves" - take yer pick! :tooth:

    I prefer the Jabberwocky original, Slimy Toves.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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