No firearms signs

2

Replies

  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,628 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    So if you are one private property, with or without a gun, and are told to leave by the owner and refuse, what will the cops charge you with (outside of any other stupid thing you may do like resisting)?

    Since I didnt see this until it became a zombie thread, the answer is Defiant trespass.
    (b) Defiant trespasser.--
    (1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
    not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in
    any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:
    (i) actual communication to the actor;
    (ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or
    reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
    (iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed
    to exclude intruders;
    (iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or
    reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at
    each entrance of school grounds that visitors are
    prohibited without authorization from a designated
    school, center or program official; or
    (v) an actual communication to the actor to leave
    school grounds as communicated by a school, center or
    program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement
    officer.
    (2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense
    under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third
    degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally
    communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other
    authorized person. An offense under paragraph (1)(v)
    constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it
    is a summary offense.
    If you refuse to leave, or give the landowner or his agent a hard time issuing a threat or using intimidation, it becomes criminal trespass.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member
    Ricky75 wrote: »
    NO FIREARMS ALLOWED signs are popping up all over the place here in OK! A lot of the restaurants I go to have those signs on the door. Here’s what I do. I ask for the manager and when he comes over and I tell him “Because of his NO FIREARMS ALLOWED sign I can’t come in here again!”. They all say the same thing. “It’s OK for you to come in. No one knows you carrying a gun because it’s concealed.” I tell them “No, the sign reads NO FIREARMS ALLOWED” and that what it means. I then ask them if I got them a “NO OPEN CARRY” sign would they take down the NO FIREARMS ALLOWED sign and put up the NO OPEN CARRY sign on the door. They always agree. When I finish eating I go out to my car and get my scraper and a NO OPEN CARRY sign that I purchased from “MYSAFETYSIGN (Google it. $2.00 for a 3X5 vinyl sticky if you buy 20) and replace there sign.!!
    For those people that are hard to convince I use this. On page 64 of the February 2013 issue of America’s First Freedom (NRA) there is an article titled “Guns, Mental Illness and Newtown” by Dave Kopel. (You can Google “Dave Kopel and look for Guns, Mental Illness and Newtown” by Dave Kopel you can copy it from his web site.) I had copies made. The last two paragraphs explain that a Gun Free Zone with out metal detectors and armed security personal is nothing but a pretend Gun Free Zone. These pretend Gun Free Zones are magnets for evildoers who know they will be able to murder at will. So far I’ve had no refusal to changing the signs.
    It’s worth the two bucks just to know I’ve screwed the anti gun people out of another one of there efforts to ban guns. I hope you’ll do the same

    My armrest is full of Truth About guns pamplets from my state 2a organization.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,466 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    So if you are one private property, with or without a gun, and are told to leave by the owner and refuse, what will the cops charge you with (outside of any other stupid thing you may do like resisting)?

    Criminal trespass where I come from, although it almost never happens. If the cop invites you to leave, and you refuse, it's a misdemeanor. (A misdemeanor must happen in the presence of a police officer for an officer to make an arrest. Only a drunk would not leave after being asked by a LEO and the management.

    A sign alone won't get a charge. An officer can't know if the trespasser read the sign, or even if he can read, for that matter. Got to be served notice of trespass and then do it again for a charge to be made.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • rootbrainrootbrain Member Posts: 75 Member
    bisley wrote: »
    In Texas, a sign means nothing unless it conforms to Section 30.06 of the state code. An owner of private property may ask you to leave for any reason.

    Other than a few places where the law already prohibits carrying, the only places I've ever seen correct '30.06' signs are at gun shows.
    Section 30 aught 6. Only in Texas. :p
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,016 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    There were similar signs in lots of places at the nuke plants I worked at over the years. They were there for good reason. And a few were "No Lone Zones" that required entry in pairs.

    The "Restricted Access" places were usually due to either non-livable atmosphere, or were also marked "High Radiation Area". Neither place was a good area to hang out for a quick nap!

    Yeah, you might go for the "LONG" sleep.:tooth:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,016 Senior Member
    rootbrain wrote: »
    Section 30 aught 6. Only in Texas. :p

    Yep, they can always ask you to leave and if you refuse they can call the cops and have you escorted off the premises, but they really can't do anything else too you unless you have the official 30-06 sign. I like that part of our law. And you hardly ever see that sign except in certain government offices and already restricted areas. Most businesses in Texas already know that there's many people packin' and know they can't afford to piss off the public.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • MerlinMerlin New Member Posts: 8 New Member
    I assist in Carry classes in OK. and NO manager has either the authority, nor the right, to approve the removal/replacement of any gun signs posted. The OWNER has to grant that approval. In addition, if it's a large chain establishment, it would have to be addressed at the corporate level.
    “Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step, will surely be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge”.
    Author Unknown
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    I don't always read signs, but when I do, I usually ignore them anyway. Stay thirsty...
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,272 Senior Member
    Lawyers and insurance companies are the culprits most of the time.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Okies can read?
    :uhm:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Okies can read?
    :uhm:
    Jerry

    And it begins again...

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    I've seen several gun shops in Alabama and Florida with signs asking that no loaded firearms be brought into the store. This includes pesonal carry pieces. All of the gun shows around here don't allow any loaded arms to be brought in either as all arms are cleared at the door by LEO's and a zip tie placed in the open action. I have no problem with this as it's a safety issue but it appears many of you would boycott these businesses.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,628 Senior Member
    Merlin wrote: »
    I assist in Carry classes in OK. and NO manager has either the authority, nor the right, to approve the removal/replacement of any gun signs posted. The OWNER has to grant that approval. In addition, if it's a large chain establishment, it would have to be addressed at the corporate level.
    Wrong.
    A manager can be acting as the owners agent and have full rights to post the property. No different than if you get permission to hunt a property and the owner tells you that you have the right to post and patrol.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,628 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Criminal trespass where I come from, although it almost never happens. If the cop invites you to leave, and you refuse, it's a misdemeanor. (A misdemeanor must happen in the presence of a police officer for an officer to make an arrest. Only a drunk would not leave after being asked by a LEO and the management.

    A sign alone won't get a charge. An officer can't know if the trespasser read the sign, or even if he can read, for that matter. Got to be served notice of trespass and then do it again for a charge to be made.
    Which is why you should know the laws in different areas. In PA, the only requirement is that the sign be in a place where it can be reasonably seen. To bypass it is Defiant Trespass and can be charged.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • 41magnut41magnut Senior Member Posts: 1,164 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    In Texas, a sign means nothing unless it conforms to Section 30.06 of the state code. An owner of private property may ask you to leave for any reason.

    Other than a few places where the law already prohibits carrying, the only places I've ever seen correct '30.06' signs are at gun shows.

    I am glad you brought this fact up.
    Any other form of "no gun" sign is legally ignored.
    A non-gun owner, Non CHL lawyer acquaintance called me out about this. A short call to Texas AG's office won yours truly an adult beverage of my choice.
    "The .30-06 is never a mistake." Townsend Whelen :iwo:
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    41magnut wrote: »
    I am glad you brought this fact up.
    Any other form of "no gun" sign is legally ignored.
    A non-gun owner, Non CHL lawyer acquaintance called me out about this. A short call to Texas AG's office won yours truly an adult beverage of my choice.

    Correct. An "official" sign is one you may see at entrances to banks and such. Just posting a sign of a gun with a diagonal red stroke across it is of zero effect.

    In Texas the specifics are varied. For example, there are places that are federally restricted, such as screening areas in airports, federal facilities like the federal courthouse, and so on. Those places supersede Texas law and you better have a damn good reason to be carrying a weapon there.

    Then there are places where CHL is prohibited, carry license or not. This includes voting places, county courthouses, and bars that make 50% of their revenue from alcohol sales (this means that restaurants are generally okay). State law prohibits your carrying concealed (unless you're an undercover LEO or something). Being convicted of carrying there is a 3rd degree (lowest level) of felony. But it ain't a misdemeanor and so ya better give some serious thought to toying with a felony conviction. That of course loses your CHL for life, among other things.

    Next is private stores and such that post the "no gun" signs. If the sign is one those offhand types, you're not breaking the law at all if you CHL there. If the sign is one of the "approved" types and is properly posted at all public entrances, then you've been properly warned and if you're caught carrying, "technically" you can be convicted of a misdemeanor. But not the felony thing as with the previous paragraph.

    Regardless of whether the sign is "official" or not, the result is the same. If you're actually carrying concealed, hey, nobody knows. Duh. And if you're "discovered" the only thing that the management can do is to ask you to leave. If you do, there is no other action taken.

    If however you cause a disturbance or refuse to leave, that's a misdemeanor. But of course, firearm or not, causing a disturbance can be a misdemeanor anyway, regardless. But if you're creating a disturbance, cops are called, and THEN they find a firearm, you might be in slightly hotter water.

    Previously, it was illegal for you to be on a school property when carrying a gun. So the law was changed to that if you're in your car (letting out or picking up the kids), it's okay to have a weapon.

    The law has also been changed regarding your vehicle. It has to be owned (or leased) by you personally, not a company car or a rental or a car you borrowed. But if the vehicle is yours, the courts in Texas have now ruled that this is an "extension" of your home, so you can now carry a handgun in your car, CHL permit or not.

    Another change in the law was to allow employees who park on company property to keep a handgun in their cars. Previously a company could ban firearms on the person in the office or factory, AND in the vehicle. Companies can no longer do that.

    So, like most states, Texas has varying zones where CHL or non-CHL handguns are allowed or prohibited. Generally, if you assume that the state has any authority to regulate handgun carry (a constitutional issue of course), then the Texas laws are "reasonable" now, after the awkward portions were changed for the better.

    Personally, I have no real problems with the law. When I'm conceal carrying, my handgun is well concealed and unlikely to "print" so I just carry it regardless. For example, if I'm stopping by the bank to cash a check or whatever and need to go inside, I may or may not have the gun. Worse they can do would be to ask me to leave (and probably not allow me back inside till I'd resolved the issue with management.) But they have to know I'm carrying first.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    As I've said before, the only place where I have actual problems with CHL in Texas is in bars and clubs. I don't live as active a nightlife as I once did but my girlfriend and I still get out occasionally to see a good local blues/rock band at a local club, and sometimes a national act (aka Dave Alvin).

    I'm safe in the club. It's going to my car in the parking lot at 145am that bothers me. So I might consider carrying concealed regardless of the law. That's taking a chance of course, but the judged by 12 rather than carried by 6 thing, y'know. Or I may not, there being NO WAY I'd have my little .357 snubbie tucked away despite the law.

    Some states allow CHL in bars and I wish Texas was one of those states. After all, thugs won't have a real CHL anyway and they go to thug bars and get into shootouts, laws or not. So allowing CHL permitees to carry in a bar would in fact have zero effect, as you know. It's persuading the legislature and gubernator to agree, whew.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    CHL carry ?

    Sam carrying a CHL is not prohibited anywhere.

    You can always carry your concealed handgun license, even if you can't carry your handgun !

    When am I "conceal carrying" ?
    When I Carry fisher ?

    Also, its concealed carry, not carry concealed or harry carry or cash & carry !

    Could be discreet carry, vs open carry.

    Concealed handgun license permitees ?

    Holy redundancy Batman !

    :yikes::jester::jester:

    I can almost always tell if a convicted felon has a real concealed handgun license, the guilt written all over his face almost always gives him away ! lol

    Ha ha, roasting the professor is ever so much fun! And he can't flunk me!

    Sorry Sam, resistance was futile !
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    CHL carry ?

    Sam carrying a CHL is not prohibited anywhere.

    Sorry Sam, resistance was futile !

    Er, okay, I guess. I yield to the superior intellect.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    No, yours is the superior intellect, ( Star Trek - wrath of Khan ) it was all in good clean fun, all puns intended, void where prohibited, cash value 1/10 of a cent.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    No, yours is the superior intellect, ( Star Trek - wrath of Khan ) it was all in good clean fun, all puns intended, void where prohibited, cash value 1/10 of a cent.

    Do you take checks?

    btw, anybody remember the actual background of "not worth a red cent"? I'll put that in the current Clubhouse trivia thread.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,466 Senior Member
    A new copper penny looks red. I think that's where it came from.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    A new copper penny looks red. I think that's where it came from.

    Nope. There were once "mills" that were 1/10 cent red plastic "coins" used for collecting sales tax when the tax was measured in 0.1 cent increments.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,330 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Nope. There were once "mills" that were 1/10 cent red plastic "coins" used for collecting sales tax when the tax was measured in 0.1 cent increments.
    As Gene pointed out in the other thread, the plastic "mills" hail from the 1930s, but the phrase "not worth a red cent" hails from the 1830s. I doubt the phrase was invented 100 years ahead of the mills...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I'd always thought it was the red plastic "mills" but Gene set us straight.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • kansashunterkansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,528 Senior Member
    I am new to concealed carry but I took my Wife out for her birthday and then went to a movie. I only go see a movie every few years so I didn't know that it was posted but when I got to the door I saw the sign. It is the only one around so we couldn't go to a different one so we just went on in. As we were walking down a hallway inside we met a deputy but nothing happened and if I ever go again I will do it the same way. When cc first passed here the coop put up a sign and everyone was complaining but was told the insurance company made them but it didn't stay up long, very few places around here are posted.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,331 Senior Member
    In Kansas, you didn't do anything illegal....unless there is security guard with a metal detector on the other side of the door...the gunbuster signs don't mean much anymore...even if they somehow saw you carrying the only thing they could do is ask you to leave....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • kansashunterkansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,528 Senior Member
    Yea I knew the most that could happen was I would have to leave but it just felt funny. I haven't carried enough yet I guess and I worry that it will show and somebody will notice. It doesn't help that the first time I carried I got out of the car and went into a fast food place and after we ordered our food I realized my shirt was hung up on the butt and nothing was covering it up. No one said anything though. I am getting more comfortable and still trying to find a holster I like better. Linda is waiting to get her ccl in the mail, shouldn't be much longer, I bought her a new pistol for her birthday but we have been too busy to try it out yet. Must make time.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,774 Senior Member
    There is (or was) a Walmart in the town I worked that had a sign saying that 'unlicensed' carry of weapons was prohibited. I took this to be an announcement that licensed concealed carry was welcomed. I always wondered if this was intentional or just poor command of the language. I assumed the latter, after the fuss made over my purchase of a .22 rifle, but never made any adjustments one way or the other. It was ironic, being escorted to the front door by the manager carrying my purchase in one hand, and another clerk carrying the ammo purchased at a discreet distance from the rifle...while I was carrying an XD45 and 24 rounds of .45 ACP on my waist. :silly:
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,466 Senior Member
    A recent court decision in Clayton Co., GA makes it clear that a sign cannot always prevent carry. In GA, as I've said before, to prevent someone from trespassing (which would be the issue) it takes individual and specific notice and a refusal to leave after being notified (individually and specifically) to constitute criminal trespass. I understand that in some jurisdictions, it only takes a sign.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
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