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Cabela's - Buying Gun as Gift (forcing gift recipient to lie on ATF 4473!)

U TU T MemberPosts: 423 Member
CABELA'S trying to force gift recipient to fill out 4473 instead of Actual Transferee/Buyer!
Went to Cabela's to buy a gift for another one of my adult kids, and it didn't go well.
On a previous trip to do same, it went off without a hitch, but daughter was not there.
On this trip, I was going to purchase a gun for my son for Christmas, to be given to him on Christmas, not on day of me purchasing the gun, and he went with me to pick one out.

Salesman (got the annoying salesman with an attitude, that I normally try to avoid) told me that my son must fill out the 4473 form, which I told him I didn't agree with, since I was the one buying the gun, paying for the gun, taking possession of the gun, and going to be giving it to my son later as a gift. The salesman stated that if my son were not with me, that I would be the one filling out the form, but since son was there, that he would be required to do so.

It is illegal to lie on form 4473, and Cabela's would be forcing my son to lie, stating that he is buying the gun, when I would actually be buying it.

I even talked to a manger before leaving Cabela's, and he stated that it is the law, that if gift recipient is with buyer, that recipient must fill out the ATF 4473 from, even though it specifically states in the 4473 Notices, Instructions and definitions section under Question 11 a. Actual Transferee/Buyer - (basically states that I am to answer "YES" on the form if I am buying with my own money to give as a present!

I believe that Cabelas is making up their own rules, and then stating that it is the law, even though their intent might be good, but following their "law" might be breaking a real one!
I realize the intent of straw purchases, but this is not one of them, and I would be the only legal person that should be filling out the 4473 form unless there is some sort of change since the printing of the 4473 form that I have that is dated April 2012.

Replies

  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    If it 'twas I, there would probably be some lies floating around.
    In September I ordered a left handed bolt action .22 for my sister, as her wedding present. The salesman looked at me funny when I shouldered it on the right side but did not say anything.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,877 Senior Member
    Why do you need to tell Cabelas you're giving it as a gift?
    I'm just here for snark.
  • U TU T Member Posts: 423 Member
    I didn't need to tell them, but no need not to tell them. It was obvious, as my son was choosing and handling to see what he wanted. There's no reason to hide anything, and there should have been no issue. It shouldn't be any different if I was buying him a pair of shoes. Merry frickin Christmas Cabela's! Bah Humbug!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    CFS (Common Frigging Sense) needs to be applied by stores.

    Long as your gifting a gun isn't illegal in your state. TMI may apply here too.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 8,501 Senior Member
    I've found that most of the clowns that work at any of the big box sports stores don't know squat. I hear so much mis-information just by listening to them spout their "knowledge" to rather clueless customers. I suggest shopping elsewhere!

    I must admit though, they have nice bathrooms!!
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    As I hear it, there is no need to fill out the form if the gun is for a member of your immediate family as a gift. That's what my LGS says, and he's very careful about the form. There's no need to lawyer it up with imagined regulations. You're buying it for yourself to give to your kid.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • U TU T Member Posts: 423 Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    As I hear it, there is no need to fill out the form if the gun is for a member of your immediate family as a gift. That's what my LGS says, and he's very careful about the form. There's no need to lawyer it up with imagined regulations. You're buying it for yourself to give to your kid.

    Gene, you are correct, but, Cabela's would not let me fill out the 4473, as required by law, and that is why i'm so irritated with them. I have talked with upper management, and pointed out that I am Mr. Brown, and my Son is Mr. Black, which means Mr. Brown is the buyer what has to fill out the darn 4473 to be legal. Cabela's management called it a "grey" area, but I told him that it is clearly black and white! (or should I say black and brown?)

    If I was spending green money on the gun, I would have gone elsewhere, but I'm using Cabela's points for the purchase, so they've got me by the balls.

    My son was approved for purchase, and I'm giving him a gift card, so he can legally purchase the gun, all on his own.
  • U TU T Member Posts: 423 Member
    http://www.nssfblog.com/giving-a-firearm-as-a-gift-some-reminders-from-nssf/ This is a link to the National Shootig Sports Foundation, which worked with the ATF for their campaign against straw purchases - slogan - "Don't Lie For The Other Guy". They are the ones that recommend the gift card. Otherwise I would have refused to pay for the gun without being "Allowed" to fill out the 4473!

    By the way, my son was delayed, but approved today, now another trip for us both, back to Cabela's on Chrismas Eve. to get what I should have been permitted to purchase last night!

    SUCKS!
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    The FFLs I know rely on keeping their audits by the BATF clean and not having it revoked so they make sure everyone in their shop knows the rules down to where every little detail on a 4473 and such is followed. I am not defending Cabela's and their practices but I'd guess most of their counter people are taught the Cabela's way which comes down from some legal department in Nebraska saying "this and that" to protect their corporate FFL. The salesman and possibly the manager are likely following what somebody else has set as SOP who hasn't filled out a 4473 is a long time if ever.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Not exactly defending Cabela's, but while the BATFE rules allow purchasing a firearm for a legitimate gift, it's the 50 freakin' states and their freakin' stupid individual gun laws that muck up the works. So rather than promulgate different rules for stores in different states (which happen to change their laws faster than a woman changes her mind), they probably just issued a one size fits all rule for all stores to follow. It definitely ain't right, but it probably is what it is due to the different state laws.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    I don't see how a 4473 has anything to do with state laws.

    Nor do I see why UT didn't just buy the gun and give it away to his son. Sometimes the distance between to points is simply a straight line.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • U TU T Member Posts: 423 Member
    Nor do I see why UT didn't just buy the gun and give it away to his son. Sometimes the distance between to points is simply a straight line.[/QUOTE]

    Gene - That is exactly what I tried to do, buy the gun, then later on Christmas day, give him the gun, even though he already picked it out, and knows there's no such thing as Santa Claus! Cabela's wouldn't allow me to do it. A perfectly legal plan!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I don't see how a 4473 has anything to do with state laws.

    Nor do I see why UT didn't just buy the gun and give it away to his son. Sometimes the distance between to points is simply a straight line.

    Try that in Illinois and see how that works out for ya.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Don't argue with store personnel -they're stressed enough as it is over federal regs. If you wanna buy a gun as a gift, just give the recipient a gift card in the proper amount and let them do the purchase at their convenience.
  • USUFBUSUFB Senior Member Posts: 830 Senior Member
    U T wrote: »
    Gene - That is exactly what I tried to do, buy the gun, then later on Christmas day, give him the gun, even though he already picked it out, and knows there's no such thing as Santa Claus! Cabela's wouldn't allow me to do it. A perfectly legal plan!

    Next time, just buy it with out mentioning that it's a gift. Save yourself the hassle.
    Sometimes, I lie awake in bed at night wondering "Why the heck can't I fall asleep?"
    NRA Life Member
  • U TU T Member Posts: 423 Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Don't argue with store personnel -they're stressed enough as it is over federal regs. If you wanna buy a gun as a gift, just give the recipient a gift card in the proper amount and let them do the purchase at their convenience.

    There was no real arguing, I was just being very firm that if I'm buying the gun with my credit card, then I'm filling out the 4473, and I will take possession of the gun to be given to my son later. That is exactly how the 4473 form spells it out, that the one purchasing must answer yes to question 11a. (did you read the explanation in my original post that started this thread?)
    Otherwise, if they insisted that he buy the gun, which is ridiculous, then your are correct, (assume you read the link to the nssf that I included that says the atf recommends the gift card purchase), then he fill out the 4773, and use the gift card that I bought for him, which is what we ended up doing, but Cabela's really resisted selling me the gift card, saying it wasn't necessary, but reluctantly did it.
    No way was I going to let him lie on the 4773 form, like Cabela's was trying to get him to do!
  • U TU T Member Posts: 423 Member
    USUFB wrote: »
    Next time, just buy it with out mentioning that it's a gift. Save yourself the hassle.

    What we were trying to do is perfectly legal, and it shouldn't have been an issue. As I mentioned earlier, it was obvious that the gun was for him. I should have just went looking only with him first, to see what he liked best, and then later come back and purchase, but a person shouldn't have to resort to that, or need to hide a legal purchase!
  • sakodudesakodude Senior Member Posts: 4,551 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Try that in Illinois and see how that works out for ya.

    No issue at all with the purchase my wife made for my Christmas gift at Bass pro. I was right beside her as she filled out the paperwork even after clearly stating it was to be a gift to me.

    Sako
  • U TU T Member Posts: 423 Member
    sakodude wrote: »
    No issue at all with the purchase my wife made for my Christmas gift at Bass pro. I was right beside her as she filled out the paperwork even after clearly stating it was to be a gift to me.

    Sako

    Perfect! That's how it's supposed to be! I'll bet her buying experience was much more satisfying than my son's, and I bet your wife felt better, since she wanted to buy you a gun, not a damn gift card! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
  • sakodudesakodude Senior Member Posts: 4,551 Senior Member
    U T wrote: »
    Perfect! That's how it's supposed to be! I'll bet her buying experience was much more satisfying than my son's, and I bet your wife felt better, since she wanted to buy you a gun, not a damn gift card! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

    It was a very pleasant experience for sure. At least in part due to the fact our counter guys new his stuff. Due to the Illinois mandated waiting period we were not able to take our purchase home that night and in fact, it was 2 weeks later that we picked it up. Walked up to the counter, same guy was there and he addressed us by name.
    That impresses me.

    Sako
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Were I you, I'd take my business to a real LGS and buy the gun there. Let Cabela's dry up.

    Just a couple years ago I went to buy my then-girlfriend the Valentine's present she asked for, a new pistol (love those Southern gals!).

    I went to the LGS, she did exactly as your son did, look at the guns and handle them. It was obvious that the gun would be hers but I bought it and filled out the paperwork as the owner (and walked out with the pistol, as there is no waiting period in Tx for CHL). The clerk at the store didn't bat an eye.

    Later of course I made out a little form, giving her the gun and keeping the serial numbers recorded, she kept one copy and I kept one.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,577 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Since I expect folks in a big box store to barely be able to spell their own name, I always dumb it down/make it as ordinary and routine as possible.

    I actually demand they be illiterate and preferably mute. I don't need their ignorant verbal diarrhea ruining my shopping experience.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Try that in Illinois and see how that works out for ya.

    Unless you told the counter guy, how would they know or care? Is it illegal in IL to sell a gun to someone else at any time in the future or are you stuck with them for life?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • sakodudesakodude Senior Member Posts: 4,551 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Unless you told the counter guy, how would they know or care? Is it illegal in IL to sell a gun to someone else at any time in the future or are you stuck with them for life?

    Anything that is legal to own here can be resold. We are required to follow the same rules in that buyer must have a valid FOID card and must observe the waiting period.

    Sako
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