Gun range's ban on Muslims draws fire

Big ChiefBig Chief Senior MemberPosts: 32,995 Senior Member
Right to refuse service legit here or not? They say publicity, any good or bad is good fer business.......................

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/28/gun-range-ban-on-muslims-draws-fire/?intcmp=latestnews



"Morgan said she is not worried about anyone coming after her, because she packs heat.

In the five months since Jan Morgan banned Muslims from her gun range in Hot Springs, Ark., business has boomed and predictions of a lawsuit brought by federal civil rights enforcers have so far proved inaccurate.

Morgan, who claims keeping Muslims out of her Gun Cave Indoor Firing Range is a matter of public safety and not a constitutional issue, says she made the decision in September after two customers she deemed suspicious visited. She said their furtive behavior and cellphone ringtones of “Allahu Akhbar” prompted her to revise her range’s policies.

“We are dealing in lethal firearms,” Morgan told FoxNews.com. “I’m not going to let a Nazi shoot in here, or a Ku Klux Klan member in here, either.”

Morgan said she excludes those she believes to be Muslim based on their names. She says business is up, but she has gotten threats, which she brushed off.

“I’m not going to let a Nazi shoot in here, or a Ku Klux Klan member in here either.”

- Jan Morgan, gun range operator

But Morgan’s “no Muslims” stance has her in the legal crosshairs of at least two groups. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) wrote to Attorney General Eric Holder seeking the Justice Department’s involvement.

“Given the recent spike in anti-Muslim rhetoric, including Islamophobic statements by government officials, community leaders and media outlets, death threats, and other bias incidents targeting Muslims, I urge you to investigate this matter soon,” a letter sent by CAIR to Holder in October stated.

“CAIR believes that systematically banning Muslims from a place of business is a violation of federal laws prohibiting racial and religious discrimination and will inevitably result in a hostile environment for ordinary Muslims in Arkansas,” the letter added.

The Justice Department did not respond to requests for comment on the matter. CAIR’s letter was copied to Gov. Mike Beebe, whose term has since ended, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, the U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Arkansas, and the ATF's Little Rock Field Office. CAIR’s litigation director told FoxNews.com none of the recipients has responded.

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of Arkansas also has petitioned federal authorities to do something about Morgan’s rules. Executive Director Rita Sklar told FoxNews.com Morgan’s claim the gun range was acting out of legitimate caution is a dog that doesn’t hunt.

“It’s discrimination based on religion, or, in this case, perceived religion and is a violation of the 1964 Civil Rights Act,” Sklar said. “It isn’t based on that person’s behavior or anything they could reliably use that could be used to bar the person from the premises.”

Sklar also said that while the ACLU chapter has not heard back yet from the DOJ, her group would be “more than happy” to proceed with legal action should a client approach them.

“We would be happy to talk to anyone who had been turned away because he or she is Muslim or perceived to be Muslim,” Sklar said. “We would be more than happy to take her to court to get her to do the American, moral thing.”

While no Muslim plaintiffs have stepped forward, a father and son who say they are Hindu claim they were kicked out last week.

"My dad and I just got kicked out of a Muslim-free gun range," read a tweet from the man claiming to have been booted. "I'm not Muslim, I'm just brown."

Legal experts say Morgan may be within her rights if her gun range is deemed a private club. Federal law bars discrimination or segregation in places of public accommodation or those that affect interstate commerce. In a legal challenge, Morgan might have to prove that her business does not fall under federal civil rights regulation.

"Federal law forbids religious discrimination by places of public accommodations," said Cornell University Law School Professor Michael Dorf. Arkansas has a state law that does the same thing. Under the federal case law, in order for an entity to count as a private club, it must have some sort of restricted membership and not be generally open to the public.

"A gun range that is generally open to the public but excludes Muslims - or any other group based on a forbidden classification - could not fairly say that everyone is a member except Muslims," Dorf added.

Mark Killenbeck, a Constitutional law professor at University of Arkansas School of Law, said if Morgan is sued, she could have a hard time showing her gun range is a privvate club and not subject to the federal statutory ban on discrimination of the basis of religion.

"The Court has held that truly private entities can engage in such discrimination but requires that they are truly and demonstrably private and that the club and its members have a 'common expressive purpose,'” he said. "There are ways that the owner might be able to make that claim, but I am skeptical."

In the meantime, Morgan is not budging. She likened offering target practice to potential terrorists to flight schools offering lessons on simulators to the 9/11 terrorists. And because firearms are involved, she said her case is not analogous to cases in which private businesses have been sanctioned for refusing to serve other groups, such as gays.

“One mistake can cost another human being’s life,” she said. “There’s no room for mistakes when you’re handling firearms. We aren’t just refusing to make a wedding cake here.”

Morgan claims business has “quadrupled” with people from out of state coming to the range and some even offering donations for what they predict will be a legal battle. She also said she has been threatened, which she responded to by posting her home address on the range website and daring those issuing threats to do so in person.

“I am the infidel your Imam warned you about,” Morgan wrote under an image of her packing heat.

Adam Shaw is a News Editor for FoxNews.com. He can be reached here or on Twitter: @AdamShawNY";

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/28/gun-range-ban-on-muslims-draws-fire/?intcmp=latestnews
It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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Replies

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,648 Senior Member
    I expect the Attorney General to run her out of business and Obama to say he saw it first on CNN.

    EDIT: Of course, if the state legislature and governor have 'a pair,' between them, they could make a state law that prohibits state LEOs from enforcing it, I guess. Montana is trying it, on another issue, and many states refuse to enforce the Gun Control Act of 1968, so it might work.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Good thing she wasn't refusing to serve illegals/gang bangers and then the AG/Al/JJ/Obammy would be all over it.............why that could have been his son who was refused entry!

    Oh boy, CAIR and the ACLU are horrified.............

    She may just get herself in a pickle over it, though.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I don't think I'd have done that if it were my business, BUT I would surely not let anyone who I thought may be a danger to me/ other customers/themselves have entry and refuse them service, no matter their race/religion.

    Having that gibber jabber come on a ringtone may be no more harmful than a Baptist having a praise the Lord hymn on his, but the Baptist ain't likely to wanna kill you cause you ain't like him, like many Islamofacist do.

    I still like the One on One approach whereas each customer should be assessed as OK or a threat.

    This response may surprise some of you who thunk I'm a bigot, Islam hating homophobic, but I served my country and still support the equal rights of all folks regardless of race/religion or creed and even sexual preference even if I find that behavior disgusting personally.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Well, it is like the business that didn't want to work with the gay wedding a year or two back in Colorado and was fined. PROTECTED GROUPS ... every one is protected but white Christian males.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I reckon they wanted their cake and to eat it too....................:spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,736 Senior Member
    It's an obvious and overt business strategy and it seems to be working. If someone bothers to sue she will lose, but it seems no one has bothered to spend the money to do so and in the meantime she's raking it in with all the publicity she's getting. Overall I can't blame her business strategy, although long term, probably would have just been smarter to quietly deny entry to anyone she thought might be potentially dangerous and not publicly claim she's denying entry to anyone with even a Muslim sounding name.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,736 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    Well, it is like the business that didn't want to work with the gay wedding a year or two back in Colorado and was fined. PROTECTED GROUPS ... every one is protected but white Christian males.

    If you can show me a place where white, christian, males are being denied entry, service, or rights I'll be happy to support your protest against them.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,407 Senior Member
    If you can show me a place where white, christian, males are being denied entry, service, or rights I'll be happy to support your protest against them.

    Try to attend any "A.M.E." church in the southeastern United States!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    .......... not publicly claim she's denying entry to anyone with even a Muslim sounding name.

    Give them a symbol they can wear.

    Not the Yellow badge, thats been done.

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,407 Senior Member
    Enzo, you just described half the liberals in the country. The rest are stupid and naïve.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,736 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Try the thousands of jobs reserved for EO applicants, the thousands of slots in colleges reserved for minorities, the THOUSANDS of grants, contracts, scholarships etc slotted for specific non-white racial/ethnic groups. Go ahead, set up ONE scholarship in this country and specify "white of European descent" on the description for approved applicants and see where that gets you. You are very smart and yet TERRIBLY naive at times my friend...
    Slightly different subject here, although I understand that frustration. I actually wrote a scholarship essay in HS that said essentially that (although add in from a middle class family). I predictably didn't get it...

    If we want to get into preferenced hiring it could be a long discussion with veterans being by far the most privileged class at least in DC.

    Not exactly the same though as being specifically denied service at a public place of business. I would argue that Churches as Jerry suggested also aren't quite the same since there are churches and religions that discriminate for all kinds of reasons and almost by definition discriminate based on religion.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Reminds me of Obammys plan fer free Community College.........he just backed away from dropping the tax break for middle class families who scrimped and saved to put money aside so their children could go to college because of public uproar.

    Funny how they want to make everything free, but somebody has to pay fer it. So if left as it was his plan would have theoretically penalized the middle class who he says he wants to help. So kids with a C+ average could get free college while those families that worked hard get screwed because of his Robin Hood/Utopian pipe dreams would have been burdened with additional tax on their kids college fund savings.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    If you can show me a place where white, christian, males are being denied entry, service, or rights I'll be happy to support your protest against them.

    I was kinda speaking on Protected Groups not necessarily places. Kinda what Enzo pointed out with the open slots for schools, jobs, etc.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,407 Senior Member
    Veterans have earned the priveleges they enjoy, protecting the sorry butts of people too cowardly to serve!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Veterans have earned the priveleges they enjoy, protecting the sorry butts of people too cowardly to serve!
    Jerry

    Exactly. Many here have taken an oath on our lives for this country. Have you ever taken an oath on you life? For anything, anything at all.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    “CAIR believes that systematically banning Muslims from a place of business is a violation of federal laws prohibiting racial and religious discrimination and will inevitably result in a hostile environment for ordinary Muslims in Arkansas,” the letter added.


    Yeah I feel their pain, but when you shoot up the place in the name of Allah you're definitely violating the Constitutional Rights of those you kill too!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    You gotta love this,

    “I am the infidel your Imam warned you about,” Morgan wrote under an image of her packing heat.

    :win:................:applause:...............:yikes:................:fan:................:rotflmao:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    If it's a private club, IMHO they can tell anyone they please to pound sand. At least, it should be. If I have private club, and I don't want the red headed pasty white freaks to be a part of it, that's my headache don't you worry bout me.
    Hell, I'll go so far as to say a privately owned restaurant for example. If I don't want to serve red heads, that's my right. If it blows up in my face, that's my problem.
    The only thing I can see being really enforceable, would be something that's funded by tax dollars.

    But what about Buffy??? :yikes:........:fan:........:rotflmao:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    "If you can show me a place where white, christian, males are being denied entry, service, or rights I'll be happy to support your protest against them."

    Alpha, Try that on the rough side of town in any big city where whites are the minority(where you see exactly ZERO Pale Face in the crowd, the VFW (Very Few Whites) and see how that works for ya!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,736 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    "If you can show me a place where white, christian, males are being denied entry, service, or rights I'll be happy to support your protest against them."

    Alpha, Try that on the rough side of town in any big city where whites are the minority(where you see exactly ZERO Pale Face in the crowd, the VFW (Very Few Whites) and see how that works for ya!

    You realize I live near and work in Washington DC right? I've been in many areas where I was a significant minority or even a statistical outlier. Never had a problem being served at a restaurant or purchasing something from a bodega.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,024 Senior Member
    Good for her, It's her gun range. "No shoes, No shirt, NO Turban."
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,265 Senior Member
    If I'm at a gun range and hear Allah Akbar I'm going too DEVCON 3
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,407 Senior Member
    Just charge a one-time $5.00 "membership fee", good for 20 years or so, and issue an ID card. Now you're a "private club". That's how a lot of bars in "dry" areas get around liquor laws. "Bring your own bottle, and we'll supply the mixers for a modest fee per drink." Or maybe, "Bring your own gun and we will supply a safe place to shoot it and sell you some ammo if you need it!"

    All fixee!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,508 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    If I'm at a gun range and hear Allah Akbar I'm going too DEVCON 3

    Me and you can never be at the same range...or possibly hang out...I regularly toss out Arabic phrases in the place of saying other stuff..
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,736 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I looked at the rest of the options, I must have missed the WHITE comedy channel.

    It's called "Blue collar radio" or at least it was when I had Sirius.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    You realize I live near and work in Washington DC right? I've been in many areas where I was a significant minority or even a statistical outlier. Never had a problem being served at a restaurant or purchasing something from a bodega.

    But Alpha I have to admint that DC seems different. I have been there and all the blacks I met were very acceptable to whites. I know they have a high murder and crime rate there in the bad parts of town but there's something different about the place that you won't find in places like Detroit.

    I really enjoyed going to DC.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Well if we want to narrowly limit the scope of discrimination to one instance and debate that limited scope then you are correct in asserting a "slightly different subject" but the fact is that in 2015 America there is WIDESPREAD and rampant discrimination against whites in all sort of venues. My wife has been told by school financial offices point blank that her chances of getting merit based scholarships being a white woman are pretty darn slim because a HUGE percentage of them have a qualifier of race or ethnic group. You can have a UNCF.org on the internet, try to set up a UWCF.org and see what happens to you! How about Black Entertainment TV? Would you feel safe starting WHITE Entertainment TV? Yesterday I noticed the Black comedy channel on XM Radio. They also have one dedicated to Latinos and other minorities. I looked at the rest of the options, I must have missed the WHITE comedy channel.

    The fact is that we (and I count myself as a white male even though I could be taking advantage of this as a born latino) are horribly discriminated against every day and it is truly a one way street for the most part. And unlike you I try to see the problem in its totality because I don't carry around the silly notion that we OWE anything to anyone because of skin color, race, sexual tendencies etc...

    Oh Enzo, you need to look it up. It is a Riot!!! There's the big four I call them Bill Engvall, Jeff Foxworthy, Larry the Cable Guy, and a crazy Texas White Guy named Ron White. There's many more but these four got me into this. They are a RIOT and totally insane.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,736 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    But Alpha I have to admint that DC seems different. I have been there and all the blacks I met were very acceptable to whites. I know they have a high murder and crime rate there in the bad parts of town but there's something different about the place that you won't find in places like Detroit.

    I really enjoyed going to DC.

    I've also been to Detriot many times, and Chicago, and Atlanta, and Most of the Boroughs in NYC including Brooklyn and the Bronx...
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Good for her, It's her gun range. "No shoes, No shirt, NO Turban."

    There are turban wearers;

    2013_6largeimg208_Jun_2013_091633077-370x290.jpg


    And there are turban wearers;

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSLuvjyCuMtqdDhI59U3zhXtI4O8UqYYKX9W3QANHHRJOrwB2JB

    Try and keep up at the back please. :roll:

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,736 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »

    Do you have your protest sign ready?

    I have been a long time sign carrier for any hiring practice that considers any factors other than the direct qualifications of the applicant. So that sign is in my permanent arsenal.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
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